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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/2/2015 12:28:39 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Is this another 'We, conservatives, hate Unions because they have done so much good for the American people since their inception' thread?

In the past, Unions have served a purpose in getting kids out of the coal mines, getting workers decent working conditions and wages however they hit a "wall" where they cease to provide ongoing benefits.. My experience was as a kid working at the Post Office (in Canada) and the union telling the membership/workers to go out on strike.. I remember one time we were out for 6 or 8 weeks (no pay!) and the union "won us" some measily 18 cent/hr raise.. like, wtf? Yeah, that did not leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling for unions..

So because there is one instance in which you dislike what the Union did; therefore we should scrap the whole concept?

first, it would be impossible to "scrap the whole concept".. unions arent gonna go away just cuz I dont like them much.. and secondly, unions today arent where they are actually needed and can do the most good for underpaid, abused, overworked worker slaves..

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/2/2015 12:54:24 PM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

first, it would be impossible to "scrap the whole concept".. unions arent gonna go away just cuz I dont like them much.. and secondly, unions today arent where they are actually needed and can do the most good for underpaid, abused, overworked worker slaves..

I have not seen anything in the behavior of management that would indicate that the need for unions has passed. How, specifically, would you address the issues? What exactly do the unions do that needs to be changed?
You and I are not unaware that there exists those less ethical than ourselves. That some become politicians or union management would seem inevitable. How might we drain the basin without loosing the washing?

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Post #: 22

RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/2/2015 1:13:58 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

first, it would be impossible to "scrap the whole concept".. unions arent gonna go away just cuz I dont like them much.. and secondly, unions today arent where they are actually needed and can do the most good for underpaid, abused, overworked worker slaves..

I have not seen anything in the behavior of management that would indicate that the need for unions has passed. How, specifically, would you address the issues? What exactly do the unions do that needs to be changed?
You and I are not unaware that there exists those less ethical than ourselves. That some become politicians or union management would seem inevitable. How might we drain the basin without loosing the washing?

No but where the unions are, there is not much that can be done to improve workers wages/work environment.. so they become a sorta expensive way to keep management in line.. Imo they need to be where they usually arent.. take walmart for instance, they are imo needed there and in companies like walmart (they are also needed in less developed countries like China, etc but they have not made the jump like international corps have).. As far as union management becoming unethical, yeah, that is a problem.. but "term limits" might help keep unethical people from doing excessive harm..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Post #: 23

RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/2/2015 1:26:39 PM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

No but where the unions are, there is not much that can be done to improve workers wages/work environment..

I would disagree. Wages are stagnant and benefits are being chisseled away...there is plenty of work for those willing to do what they were elected to do.

quote:

so they become a sorta expensive way to keep management in line.. Imo they need to be where they usually arent.. take walmart for instance, they are imo needed there and in companies like walmart

I have heard that Wallmart and others take a very pro-active stance about union organizing.

quote:

(they are also needed in less developed countries like China, etc but they have not made the jump like international corps have)..

I would like to have my own lawn mowed and trimmed before I suggest to my neighbor that he should do likewise.

quote:

As far as union management becoming unethical, yeah, that is a problem.. but "term limits" might help keep unethical people from doing excessive harm..

A union being a private membership sort of organization can create sanctions that might mitigate against the most sever abuses.

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Post #: 24

RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/2/2015 2:46:04 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Is this another 'We, conservatives, hate Unions because they have done so much good for the American people since their inception' thread?

In the past, Unions have served a purpose in getting kids out of the coal mines, getting workers decent working conditions and wages however they hit a "wall" where they cease to provide ongoing benefits.. My experience was as a kid working at the Post Office (in Canada) and the union telling the membership/workers to go out on strike.. I remember one time we were out for 6 or 8 weeks (no pay!) and the union "won us" some measily 18 cent/hr raise.. like, wtf? Yeah, that did not leave me with a warm fuzzy feeling for unions..

So because there is one instance in which you dislike what the Union did; therefore we should scrap the whole concept?

first, it would be impossible to "scrap the whole concept".. unions arent gonna go away just cuz I dont like them much.. and secondly, unions today arent where they are actually needed and can do the most good for underpaid, abused, overworked worker slaves..

Unions served a needed purpose decades ago. Much of the ideas they supported and fought for have been put in US Code. Thus, those things are no longer things that need to be fought for (there will always be a need to keep an eye on businesses to make sure they are following the rules, but we do have OSHA for that).

What's really interesting is that Union supporters will trumpet Union successes (those things that they fought for and gained all those years ago) and ask if we want to go back to before that time. It's as if Unions are the only thing keeping children out of coal mines, or working conditions habitable. If we got rid of Unions, would the 40 hr. workweek go with them? Maybe, but it's Federal law that dictates OT for many people who work more than 40 hours in a week.

Unions can't point to things they fought and won in the past as reasons they are still needed today.

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A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
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Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/2/2015 2:51:56 PM

igor2003

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--FR--

It seems that there are some people that just don't know how unions work . . . at least not any unions that I have been in. People are complaining that They (the unions) did this to us, or They (the unions) didn't do that for them. If you pay union dues, then YOU are the union. There are representatives, elected by YOU (the dues paying members) that represent you in interactions between the union body (the dues paying members) and the company or companies that have contracts with that union.

The elected representatives will negotiate with the company(ies) when it is time for new contracts, but then the representatives DO NOT okay whether that contract is accepted or not. YOU (the dues paying members) vote as to whether that contract is accepted or not. YOU (the dues paying members) decide whether you want to go on strike or not. The union is NOT a "They". If you didn't go to the union meetings then you probably didn't vote. That is on YOU for not going and making your voice heard. Any time you blame "the union" you are actually blaming yourself.

What does a union actually do for you? Well . . . Idaho has never been one of the highest wage per capita states, but in the early 1980s it ranked 37 in per capita income. In 1985 Right To Work (for less) was voted in. Idaho's per capita income has steadily declined over the years since then to where it now ranks 49th. YEA Right to Work!

As of 2012, 8 out of 10 of the highest income states (including D.C.) are NOT Right to Work states. Of the lowest income states, 6 out of 10 ARE Right to Work states. Are we seeing a pattern here?

As long as there are unions they will continue doing what they were originally organized for . . . keeping the companies "honest" and fair. Even companies that are not unionized have to give their employees fair wages and benefits in order to keep their workers from becoming disgruntled and voting in a union. When the unions are gone, or even hobbled as in the Right to Work states, the companies start losing their fear of unions coming in and wages and benefits start deteriorating.

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At my age erections are like cops...there's never one around when you need it!

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 5:31:25 AM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

Unions can't point to things they fought and won in the past as reasons they are still needed today

If unions are gone what stops management from changing the law. SCOYUS has rueled that corporations money has a vote. Notice what has happened to workers comp. Of course those who seek to keep labor impoverished will never be in favor of unions.

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 5:59:52 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

Unions can't point to things they fought and won in the past as reasons they are still needed today

If unions are gone what stops management from changing the law. SCOYUS has rueled that corporations money has a vote. Notice what has happened to workers comp. Of course those who seek to keep labor impoverished will never be in favor of unions.

Gunny I don't remember SCOTUS ever saying that corporations had a vote. I believe they said something more like they had a right to contribute their opinion thru the use of money, not not an actual vote. If I am wrong please provide the citation so I am better informed.

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 6:22:24 AM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Gunny I don't remember SCOTUS ever saying that corporations had a vote. I believe they said something more like they had a right to contribute their opinion thru the use of money, not not an actual vote. If I am wrong please provide the citation so I am better informed.

Is it your contention that money cannot buy votes?

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Post #: 29

RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 6:27:29 AM

servantforuse

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You seem to think that it is perfectly fine for unions to spend millions getting their people voted in, but not for corporations.

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 6:29:18 AM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You seem to think that it is perfectly fine for unions to spend millions getting their people voted in, but not for corporations.

Has the SCOTUS given unions the same rules to play by as it has corporations?

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 6:36:36 AM

servantforuse

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Pretty much. This is a 1st amendment issue. Anyone, corporations and da union are free to contribute. By the way. I worked for an evil corporation and was a union member CWA, for 34 years.

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 7:33:38 AM

KenDckey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Gunny I don't remember SCOTUS ever saying that corporations had a vote. I believe they said something more like they had a right to contribute their opinion thru the use of money, not not an actual vote. If I am wrong please provide the citation so I am better informed.

Is it your contention that money cannot buy votes?

No, you said that

quote:

SCOYUS has rueled that corporations money has a vote.

You didn't say anything about bribery. That sir is illegal. They may purchase advertising, issue press releases, but it is illegal to buy votes.

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Post #: 33

RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 7:42:44 AM

Thegunnysez

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double post

< Message edited by Thegunnysez -- 9/3/2015 7:45:40 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 7:44:08 AM

Thegunnysez

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ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thegunnysez

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey
Gunny I don't remember SCOTUS ever saying that corporations had a vote. I believe they said something more like they had a right to contribute their opinion thru the use of money, not not an actual vote. If I am wrong please provide the citation so I am better informed.

Is it your contention that money cannot buy votes?

quote:

No, you said that

quote:

SCOYUS has rueled that corporations money has a vote.

No, I said nothing about SCOYUS

I did reference the SCOTUS decission that corporations were 'persons" and that a corporation can use it's money in the same fashion as a human being. My question to you was whether money has any influence on elections. Witness the recent mid-terms. Touted as the most expensive campaign ever delivered what to the current party in power of the house and senate?

quote:

You didn't say anything about bribery. That sir is illegal. They may purchase advertising, issue press releases, but it is illegal to buy votes.

You are absolutely right I have not mentioned bribery.

< Message edited by Thegunnysez -- 9/3/2015 7:48:02 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 7:58:29 AM

servantforuse

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Money certainly does influence elections. We saw it here in Wisconsin when SEIU, AFL CIO and other national unions spent millions trying to defeat Scott Walker in a recall election. In this case, it was millions of union dues down the drain.

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RE: Why pay union dues? - 9/3/2015 8:48:42 AM

Thegunnysez

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Money certainly does influence elections. We saw it here in Wisconsin when SEIU, AFL CIO and other national unions spent millions trying to defeat Scott Walker in a recall election. In this case, it was millions of union dues down the drain.

What was the total count for money spent by each side? That might be a good metric to gauge the value of money to an election.

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Post #: 37

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