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ORIGINAL: dreamlady

I think it best we agree to disagree...

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There are always going to be exceptions to every rule, but the exception does not make the rule.

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Now, are you simply out to tell OP what he wants to hear (i.e. feed into his wishful thinking), or do you want to give him a reality check?

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

I do enjoy the last word

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ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Regarding service by someone who is sexually incompatible.

I am a straight male but I have happily accepted service (nonsexual) from submissive males and sometimes I enjoy exercising my sadistic streak with one.
Why should it not happen with other permutations of the game?

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ORIGINAL: Sojourner1983

I was asking the question because I am curious as to the answer. The goal was not to gain "wank material" nor was it intended to imply anything about anyone. Human sexuality is a broad category and I live by the motto "What two or more consenting adults do in the privacy of their home is their business."

I was not asking about rape, either real or role play. I was also not asking about slaves with such a low opinion of themselves that they consider themselves to be worthless and engage in self destructive behavior. Nor was I including bisexual women since they are interested in both males and females. Moreso it was a question about the slave mindset. A slave which is perhaps exploring full commitment to slavery while setting aside personal feelings and desires. It would be the same as a straight male slave submitting to a bi/gay male master. Accepting the control of someone they know will use them in a way which, while not going to the extreme of rape, would be outside their comfort zone. A real slave has no choice in the matter, while in bdsm they do. It is not about humiliation which some people are into and I do not judge. Just a question about a slave seeking out this type of relationship for whatever reason and the reasons behind it.

I am not looking for a lesbian for this type of relationship nor do I think that lesbians are bi women waiting for the right guy to "cure" them. Simply curious.

It's good of you to return to your thread and add more dimensionality to your original post. Not every OP does. Countless go MIA, unheard from ever again.

What I've seen trend-wise over the years are bisexuals who reach a point in their lives where they acknowledge that they were homosexual all along. This isn't to say that this would be true of every bisexual.
Their inner conflicts, sense of outside pressure to "conform" to societal *norms*, fear of rejection by family/relatives, anxiety over being "outed," had all been impediments.
Very rarely have I heard through the grapevine that a lesbian or a gay man has had an epiphany that they are actually bisexual.
Through questionable sources, I have heard of gays who have tried to make a go of being straight (mainly for religious reasons), but with dubious success.

I mention this because there was a time when I was the only straight friend my gay friends felt accepted by for themselves, whom they could trust and confide in, who always stuck up for them when they were being censured and bullied.
Straight, bi or gay, I am as protective as a Mama Bear when it comes to my circle of friends and my loved ones.
Beyond a personal level, I also tend to be protective of others in their struggles to be affirmed for who and what they are, even if it means that my advocacy isn't wanted or needed because they choose to fight their own battles.

DreamLady

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ORIGINAL: DannyIsNotWelcom

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

I do enjoy the last word

So do I! I would like however to have explained to me how "Some subs/slaves relish humiliation and degradation, without the necessity of low self esteem or conflicted feelings." is even possible. Master makes me do stuff that I would rather die than do it for somebody else but it does not make me feel worthless a a human being. I always say that the one thing he can't do is humiliate me. If he wants me to cut his lawn crawling on all fours and biting it off that's not humiliating. If that's what he wants that's what I have to do. There's no shame in it.

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ORIGINAL: dreamlady
Beyond a personal level, I also tend to be protective of others in their struggles to be affirmed for who and what they are, even if it means that my advocacy isn't wanted or needed because they choose to fight their own battles.

DreamLady[/color]

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ORIGINAL: Sojourner1983

Ok, well first off let me apologize for the misspelling in the title of the post which I should have spotted. I also should have gone into more detail with my question in order to prevent a lot of the speculation (some of it rather wild) that has been voiced regarding the intent of my question.

I was asking the question because I am curious as to the answer. The goal was not to gain "wank material" nor was it intended to imply anything about anyone. Human sexuality is a broad category and I live by the motto "What two or more consenting adults do in the privacy of their home is their business."

I was not asking about rape, either real or role play. I was also not asking about slaves with such a low opinion of themselves that they consider themselves to be worthless and engage in self destructive behavior. Nor was I including bisexual women since they are interested in both males and females. Moreso it was a question about the slave mindset. A slave which is perhaps exploring full commitment to slavery while setting aside personal feelings and desires. It would be the same as a straight male slave submitting to a bi/gay male master. Accepting the control of someone they know will use them in a way which, while not going to the extreme of rape, would be outside their comfort zone. A real slave has no choice in the matter, while in bdsm they do. It is not about humiliation which some people are into and I do not judge. Just a question about a slave seeking out this type of relationship for whatever reason and the reasons behind it.

I am not looking for a lesbian for this type of relationship nor do I think that lesbians are bi women waiting for the right guy to "cure" them. Simply curious.

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

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ORIGINAL: dreamlady
Beyond a personal level, I also tend to be protective of others in their struggles to be affirmed for who and what they are, even if it means that my advocacy isn't wanted or needed because they choose to fight their own battles.

DreamLady

You might have to consider also, when offering unsolicited advocacy, that your advocacy may not be accurate or appropriate to their personal philosophy or situation, and consequently damaging to them, rather than supportive.

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ORIGINAL: dreamlady

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

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ORIGINAL: dreamlady
Beyond a personal level, I also tend to be protective of others in their struggles to be affirmed for who and what they are, even if it means that my advocacy isn't wanted or needed because they choose to fight their own battles.

DreamLady

You might have to consider also, when offering unsolicited advocacy, that your advocacy may not be accurate or appropriate to their personal philosophy or situation, and consequently damaging to them, rather than supportive.

You might also want to consider, Bhruic, that you are not my self-appointed (by you) keeper to be offering me unsolicited advice. We are both free to express our opinions without making unsubstantiated (snyde) remarks about a fellow contributing poster.

You may also want to keep in mind that despite the lack of moderation around the forums lately, those of us who are not new to the boards understand that it is fine to comment upon post content, not to hone in on contributing fellow posters on a personal level. An unsolicited personal level, I might add.
Being an OP is slightly different in that respect because by virtue of starting a thread, the Opening Poster leaves himself or herself potentially wide open to scrutiny in order for the rest of us to get a more panoramic view of the various angles involved which may or may not be relevant to the discussion topic and/or related subject matter.

You misconstrued my phrasing. Part of affirming others is to step back or step down from taking a position of advocacy BECAUSE they have indicated that it isn't wanted or needed.
So far, I don't see where you would fit into this category of being directly and personally impacted (as a gay person) to have a say one way or the other about how I choose to communicate here.

DreamLady

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ORIGINAL: dreamlady

So far, I don't see where you would fit into this category of being directly and personally impacted (as a gay person) to have a say one way or the other about how I choose to communicate here.

DreamLady

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

But I did misconstrue your phrasing, and for that I apologize.

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

P.S. The meaning of the above sentence wholly escapes me, but it seems as if you are making the presumption that I am a gay man. Is that correct? Or have I misconstrued you once again?

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ORIGINAL: Sojourner1983

I live by the motto "What two or more consenting adults do in the privacy of their home is their business."

A real slave has no choice in the matter [...]

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

You might be confusing the personal feeling of humiliation, with acts considered humiliating by an observer.

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ORIGINAL: dreamlady

Unless you've revised your couple's profile lately (as I did yesterday with my own), I already knew that you identify as a poly bisexual switch.*

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Even if you were gay, your perspective would not necessarily apply to lesbians. Those of lesbians you know would carry greater weight, on either side of the kneel.
I would factor in any input of that nature, along with what I've already been told by my non-hetero pals or observed for myself, then determine if it pertains to real time or on-line interactions, and whether there is overlap.

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Edited - clarity:
* My point being that you aren't personally impacted in a direct manner and don't have firsthand experience of this sort either, since you aren't gay.

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On the flipside, you haven't spoken of being the Master to a lesbian slave, or as a couple of having lent one out, or of having been lent out a lesbian slave to the both of you.

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ORIGINAL: DannyIsNotWelcom

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic

You might be confusing the personal feeling of humiliation, with acts considered humiliating by an observer.

Not at all, I explicitly asked for a disambiguation. You avoided my question instead of answering it.

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So it seems to me that you do recognize humiliation and/or degradation, because you would die if required to do such things for someone else... but for your master it is a different story.

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If you did not, on some level, feel the humiliation/degradation then the set task would pose no challenge to you, and you would not get the heightened satisfaction at having successfully obeyed.

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In general, I find the notion distasteful and incorrect that subs/slaves ARE subs/slaves BECAUSE they suffer from low self esteem and confusion. It may sometimes be the case, but as a presumption I think it is insulting to them.

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ORIGINAL: DannyIsNotWelcom

Yes and no. I call it swallowing my pride, which I sometimes have to do in everyday situations too. (And like to say that if someone can't do it maybe it's because they didn't have something to swallow to begin with.)

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Let me put my question this way. Humiliation, no matter how you define it in particular, has something to do with self-esteem. And it doesn't add to it. So if you have it how does that pan out with wanting to have it taken away from you?

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In general, I find the notion distasteful and incorrect that subs/slaves ARE subs/slaves BECAUSE they suffer from low self esteem and confusion. It may sometimes be the case, but as a presumption I think it is insulting to them.

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Quite right. But degrading precisely causes those kind of feelings, so whether or not you had them before you're sure to have them afterwards. So once again: why would someone who does not have issues want to create some?

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ORIGINAL: Bhruic
One example is the one I already gave you, where humiliation is the challenge that makes a task more rewarding to successfully handle.

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In general, I find the notion distasteful and incorrect that subs/slaves ARE subs/slaves BECAUSE they suffer from low self esteem and confusion. It may sometimes be the case, but as a presumption I think it is insulting to them.

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Some subs crave humiliation and degradation exactly because their natural personality is confident, aggressive or even controlling, and they enjoy the freedom that letting go of such personality traits - and the pressures and responsibilities that go with them - offers them.

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It could be easily argued that to actually choose submission - or slavery - requires a healthy degree of self confidence.

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I personally think that the desire to offer submission - the desire to give complete control of oneself to another person - is not necessarily informed, or even frequently informed, by feelings of worthlessness and low self esteem. I think there are a host of much healthier, legitimate, reasons people make that choice.