High cost of migrant labor..

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MercTech -> High cost of migrant labor.. (9/9/2015 3:30:31 PM)
Just sharing a though provoking article from back home... http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2015/sep/09/high-cost-cheap-immigrant-labor/

DesideriScuri -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/9/2015 5:24:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Just sharing a though provoking article from back home... http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2015/sep/09/high-cost-cheap-immigrant-labor/ Interesting article, MercTech. Might have been written with an attempted bias, though. The article discussed the Jackson, MS case where the workers were properly documented immigrants and then discussed the American Dairyco case in which several illegal immigrants were found to have used stolen identities to get the jobs, and American Dairyco was not penalized because it had followed the rules. Yet, the next paragraph was: quote: "What happens is that corporations are looking for vulnerable workers, employers are looking for vulnerable workers, and more often than not, they find undocumented workers who, because of their lack of status, agree to work at lower wages," he said. In neither of these cases were the corporations looking for undocumented workers. The first group were paying the Federal minimum wage to properly documented workers. What wages were promised isn't clear. Saying that the pay was going to be "up to $11/hr." only means that there is a cap on what they would pay, not that it was promised, or that there were several wages promised, including, but not higher than, $11/hr. Paying someone $7.25/hr. does not make the offer of "up to $11/hr." false. The American Dairyco case didn't follow that claim, either. The Howard Industries case shows that the corporation was using illegal immigrants and 600 were deported. The wages being paid weren't explicitly stated, but there was a mention of $7.25/hr. (still a legal wage rate). In that same paragraph, that wage was used to calculate the "lost" yearly wages for those illegals and their families. If that's not a biased claim, nothing is. The fact that these people were not legally allowed to be working means that any "lost" wages were the ones they didn't get by getting jobs legally. Anything Howard Industries paid them were illegally gained wages. Those can't be lost, since they shouldn't have had them in the first place. I am a bit surprised that the fines on Howard Industries only totaled $2.5M, and for "conspiracy to violate immigration laws." In and of itself, that's a bunch of crap, since they actually did violate immigration laws. The article made it sound horrible that the 9 defendants who are alleged to be illegally working in the US and using fraudulent ID's to do so, are being tried, with potential sentencing of up to $10k and 2-15 years in prison, if found guilty. The next 2 paragraphs bring up that there are protections for employers who unknowingly employ undocumented workers, and the penalties fall, then, on those undocumented workers, which leaves "hundreds of thousands of families ... with little or no income." Damn right it does. Had they not attempted to get jobs in the US without proper documentation, they could have worked so their families weren't left with little or no income. quote: A 2013 SPLC report on guest workers titled "Close to Slavery" concluded: "We are a nation of immigrants, not a nation of temporary workers. Temporary workers who come to the United States make a valuable contribution to our nation. They should be incorporated into our society as full members so that they too are entitled to the same benefits, rights, and protections enjoyed by all workers in the United States. The time has come for Congress to abolish—not expand—our shamefully abusive guestworker system." I disagree with the analysis here. Temporary workers DO make valuable contributions to the US. There is no mention of how those workers are being denied the same benefits, rights and protections that "all workers in the United States" enjoy. I completely disagree that the program/system should be abolished, though. If anything, it should be reformed so that it does get expanded and, more importantly, includes a path to full legal citizenship. No reason why an immigrant who is legally working in the US shouldn't be able to use the fact that he/she is here working, and is here through legal channels, to gain citizenship. Maybe not after a year or two, but with 5 years, or so, of consistent legal working status, he/she has gained the right to be naturalized and gain citizenship. At that point, he/she would also be able to go through the legal channels to bring his/her family into the US legally, too.

tj444 -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/10/2015 12:51:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: MercTech Just sharing a though provoking article from back home... http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/2015/sep/09/high-cost-cheap-immigrant-labor/ Interesting article, MercTech. Might have been written with an attempted bias, though. The article discussed the Jackson, MS case where the workers were properly documented immigrants and then discussed the American Dairyco case in which several illegal immigrants were found to have used stolen identities to get the jobs, and American Dairyco was not penalized because it had followed the rules. Yet, the next paragraph was: quote: "What happens is that corporations are looking for vulnerable workers, employers are looking for vulnerable workers, and more often than not, they find undocumented workers who, because of their lack of status, agree to work at lower wages," he said. In neither of these cases were the corporations looking for undocumented workers. The first group were paying the Federal minimum wage to properly documented workers. What wages were promised isn't clear. Saying that the pay was going to be "up to $11/hr." only means that there is a cap on what they would pay, not that it was promised, or that there were several wages promised, including, but not higher than, $11/hr. Paying someone $7.25/hr. does not make the offer of "up to $11/hr." false. The American Dairyco case didn't follow that claim, either. The Howard Industries case shows that the corporation was using illegal immigrants and 600 were deported. The wages being paid weren't explicitly stated, but there was a mention of $7.25/hr. (still a legal wage rate). In that same paragraph, that wage was used to calculate the "lost" yearly wages for those illegals and their families. If that's not a biased claim, nothing is. The fact that these people were not legally allowed to be working means that any "lost" wages were the ones they didn't get by getting jobs legally. Anything Howard Industries paid them were illegally gained wages. Those can't be lost, since they shouldn't have had them in the first place. I am a bit surprised that the fines on Howard Industries only totaled $2.5M, and for "conspiracy to violate immigration laws." In and of itself, that's a bunch of crap, since they actually did violate immigration laws. The article made it sound horrible that the 9 defendants who are alleged to be illegally working in the US and using fraudulent ID's to do so, are being tried, with potential sentencing of up to $10k and 2-15 years in prison, if found guilty. The next 2 paragraphs bring up that there are protections for employers who unknowingly employ undocumented workers, and the penalties fall, then, on those undocumented workers, which leaves "hundreds of thousands of families ... with little or no income." Damn right it does. Had they not attempted to get jobs in the US without proper documentation, they could have worked so their families weren't left with little or no income. quote: A 2013 SPLC report on guest workers titled "Close to Slavery" concluded: "We are a nation of immigrants, not a nation of temporary workers. Temporary workers who come to the United States make a valuable contribution to our nation. They should be incorporated into our society as full members so that they too are entitled to the same benefits, rights, and protections enjoyed by all workers in the United States. The time has come for Congress to abolish—not expand—our shamefully abusive guestworker system." I disagree with the analysis here. Temporary workers DO make valuable contributions to the US. There is no mention of how those workers are being denied the same benefits, rights and protections that "all workers in the United States" enjoy. I completely disagree that the program/system should be abolished, though. If anything, it should be reformed so that it does get expanded and, more importantly, includes a path to full legal citizenship. No reason why an immigrant who is legally working in the US shouldn't be able to use the fact that he/she is here working, and is here through legal channels, to gain citizenship. Maybe not after a year or two, but with 5 years, or so, of consistent legal working status, he/she has gained the right to be naturalized and gain citizenship. At that point, he/she would also be able to go through the legal channels to bring his/her family into the US legally, too. it said they werent paid for all the hours worked and werent paid overtime and they had to go into debt to even start work (which is what happens a lot with human trafficking) and had to work to pay off the debt plus having wages docked to pay for equipment fees (do American workers pay for using mowers/equipment needed to do the job?).. and how reasonable were those equipment fees or where they greatly inflated? That kinda shite happens with undocumented workers and trafficked workers/slavery.. also, unlike American workers, with some of those visas you dont have a choice, you work for that employer and if you get fired (perhaps for complaining about not getting paid for all your hours/overtime, etc) you dont get to work for any other company in the US, they have to leave the country (along with the cost of transportation back).. "the workers had to pay a recruiter in Mexico hundreds of dollars as well as pay for their own transportation to Mississippi each year and equipment fees to the companies. The suit asks for unpaid and overtime wages." eta- if they say up to $11/hr but none of the employees ever get paid that or anything near that/above minimum wage, then that is an outright lie, isnt it?

KenDckey -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/10/2015 1:33:53 PM)
quote: TJ do American workers pay for using mowers/equipment needed to do the job? Actually I know of some that do. It is rare, I'll agree. Also it is common for employees to provide the tools of their trade. Klein, Snap-on and MAC tools would be suffering without those businesses, I believe.

tj444 -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/10/2015 1:37:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: TJ do American workers pay for using mowers/equipment needed to do the job? Actually I know of some that do. It is rare, I'll agree. Also it is common for employees to provide the tools of their trade. Klein, Snap-on and MAC tools would be suffering without those businesses, I believe. I know some employers might require the employee to own certain tools, but to rent (which is what they are doing) the equipment to the employee? and as i said, at what rate? if it is an unreasonable rate then it is just a ruse to pay the worker less than the law allows/slave labor wages..

thompsonx -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/10/2015 6:10:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: TJ do American workers pay for using mowers/equipment needed to do the job? Actually I know of some that do. It is rare, I'll agree. Also it is common for employees to provide the tools of their trade. Klein, Snap-on and MAC tools would be suffering without those businesses, I believe. Actually you are mixing shit in your flat hat. The wage rate for those who use the tools you mention start out at 70k a year. They are also typically independent contractors. f you are a "direct" for edison you don't own a tool. If you are a "sub" you own all your tools.

KenDckey -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 1:25:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: TJ do American workers pay for using mowers/equipment needed to do the job? Actually I know of some that do. It is rare, I'll agree. Also it is common for employees to provide the tools of their trade. Klein, Snap-on and MAC tools would be suffering without those businesses, I believe. Actually you are mixing shit in your flat hat. The wage rate for those who use the tools you mention start out at 70k a year. They are also typically independent contractors. f you are a "direct" for edison you don't own a tool. If you are a "sub" you own all your tools. Please explain to my son why the IBEW which requires the employee to provide his own Klein tools in her toolbag at the job site why he isn't makibng 70K. That the union got it all wrong.

thompsonx -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 4:27:31 AM)
quote: Please explain to my son Is this the one in the 4th grade? quote: why the IBEW which requires the employee The ibew is a union not an employer. quote: to provide his own Klein tools in her toolbag at the job site why he isn't makibng 70K. It would be pretty obvious that he-she does not know how to use those tools...In the 21st century skilled labor starts at $35 an hour.

DesideriScuri -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 1:40:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 it said they werent paid for all the hours worked and werent paid overtime I have no problem with companies being taken to task for not paying hours worked and/or proper OT pay. That's not what the article was really about. The article was about corporations abusing undocumented workers. In the initial case discussed in the article, the workers were properly documented. That's a big difference. Properly documented workers shouldn't feel the need to hide from the authorities because they are here legally. Undocumented workers often feel they can't go to the authorities because they are here illegally and would risk being held and/or deported, so they are coerced into going along with the corporations. Now, I support holding corporations responsible when they knowingly hire illegal immigrants. quote: and they had to go into debt to even start work (which is what happens a lot with human trafficking) and had to work to pay off the debt plus having wages docked to pay for equipment fees (do American workers pay for using mowers/equipment needed to do the job?).. and how reasonable were those equipment fees or where they greatly inflated? That kinda shite happens with undocumented workers and trafficked workers/slavery.. Paying fees to traffickers isn't on the corporations hands. These workers were legally here, and properly documented. Are you missing that part on purpose? I'm not disagreeing that undocumented workers risk being abused because they are reticent to go to the authorities (refer to my response earlier in this post for more). HAve you never seen a job advertised for a mechanic where the candidate must provide his/her own tools? That might not be the same as a landscaping/mowing job, but it's possible. Since these guys were legally documented workers, why could they not find a better working arrangement than that? If these workers were forced to provide their own equipment and others, who were working in the same capacity, were not, then there is discrimination and that needs to be investigated/addressed. quote: also, unlike American workers, with some of those visas you dont have a choice, you work for that employer and if you get fired (perhaps for complaining about not getting paid for all your hours/overtime, etc) you dont get to work for any other company in the US, they have to leave the country (along with the cost of transportation back).. "the workers had to pay a recruiter in Mexico hundreds of dollars as well as pay for their own transportation to Mississippi each year and equipment fees to the companies. The suit asks for unpaid and overtime wages." eta- if they say up to $11/hr but none of the employees ever get paid that or anything near that/above minimum wage, then that is an outright lie, isnt it? No, it isn't a lie. It isn't the same as saying that at least one of you will get paid $11/hr, but it's not guaranteed that all of you will. I'd completely agree it's misleading, but, technically, the only way that's a lie is if it's not possible for anyone to get paid that for that position, or they get paid more than that for that position. American Dairyco wasn't about a corporation going after undocumented workers. The undocumented workers had fraudulent identification. Unless it's proven that the corporation provided those fraudulent identifications, that case doesn't follow the writer's bias, either. The only one that did follow the writer's bias, was the Howard Industries case. To that case, I did express surprise at the charge ("conspiracy to violate" when it was clear they actually did violate the laws) and at the low cost fine. IMO, the fine should have been much, much higher.

tj444 -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 1:51:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 it said they werent paid for all the hours worked and werent paid overtime I have no problem with companies being taken to task for not paying hours worked and/or proper OT pay. That's not what the article was really about. The article was about corporations abusing undocumented workers. In the initial case discussed in the article, the workers were properly documented. That's a big difference. Properly documented workers shouldn't feel the need to hide from the authorities because they are here legally. Undocumented workers often feel they can't go to the authorities because they are here illegally and would risk being held and/or deported, so they are coerced into going along with the corporations. Now, I support holding corporations responsible when they knowingly hire illegal immigrants. quote: and they had to go into debt to even start work (which is what happens a lot with human trafficking) and had to work to pay off the debt plus having wages docked to pay for equipment fees (do American workers pay for using mowers/equipment needed to do the job?).. and how reasonable were those equipment fees or where they greatly inflated? That kinda shite happens with undocumented workers and trafficked workers/slavery.. Paying fees to traffickers isn't on the corporations hands. These workers were legally here, and properly documented. Are you missing that part on purpose? I'm not disagreeing that undocumented workers risk being abused because they are reticent to go to the authorities (refer to my response earlier in this post for more). HAve you never seen a job advertised for a mechanic where the candidate must provide his/her own tools? That might not be the same as a landscaping/mowing job, but it's possible. Since these guys were legally documented workers, why could they not find a better working arrangement than that? If these workers were forced to provide their own equipment and others, who were working in the same capacity, were not, then there is discrimination and that needs to be investigated/addressed. quote: also, unlike American workers, with some of those visas you dont have a choice, you work for that employer and if you get fired (perhaps for complaining about not getting paid for all your hours/overtime, etc) you dont get to work for any other company in the US, they have to leave the country (along with the cost of transportation back).. "the workers had to pay a recruiter in Mexico hundreds of dollars as well as pay for their own transportation to Mississippi each year and equipment fees to the companies. The suit asks for unpaid and overtime wages." eta- if they say up to $11/hr but none of the employees ever get paid that or anything near that/above minimum wage, then that is an outright lie, isnt it? No, it isn't a lie. It isn't the same as saying that at least one of you will get paid $11/hr, but it's not guaranteed that all of you will. I'd completely agree it's misleading, but, technically, the only way that's a lie is if it's not possible for anyone to get paid that for that position, or they get paid more than that for that position. American Dairyco wasn't about a corporation going after undocumented workers. The undocumented workers had fraudulent identification. Unless it's proven that the corporation provided those fraudulent identifications, that case doesn't follow the writer's bias, either. The only one that did follow the writer's bias, was the Howard Industries case. To that case, I did express surprise at the charge ("conspiracy to violate" when it was clear they actually did violate the laws) and at the low cost fine. IMO, the fine should have been much, much higher. read my answers again, with what I wrote, not what you think i wrote.. such as, I said if no one gets paid $11/hr then its a lie, which is different than 1 person being paid $11/hr.. and where i said that legal workers with certain visas have pressure on them to not complain about not being paid for all their hours or not being paid for overtime, etc.. of course they are here documented and legal but that doesnt mean they dont have the same fear of being fired and then deported as illegal workers do.. you have no idea what its like to not be an American in America.. [8\|]

DesideriScuri -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 2:05:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 read my answers again, with what I wrote, not what you think i wrote.. such as, I said if no one gets paid $11/hr then its a lie, which is different than 1 person being paid $11/hr.. No, read my answers again. Just because an employer promises "up to $11/hr." doesn't mean that anyone is guaranteed to get $11/hr. It's entirely possible that none of the applicants met whatever criteria to merit $11/hr. What I did say, though, is that if it wasn't possible for anyone in that position to earn $11/hr., it would be a lie. It's very misleading. I haven't bought a car with a trade-in under any of those "get up to $X for your trade-in regardless of condition" gimmicks, but, technically, they don't have to pay anyone $X for a trade-in if they don't think any trade-ins merit $X credit. quote: and where i said that legal workers with certain visas have pressure on them to not complain about not being paid for all their hours or not being paid for overtime, etc.. of course they are here documented and legal but that doesnt mean they dont have the same fear of being fired and then deported as illegal workers do.. you have no idea what its like to not be an American in America.. [8\|] You're right. I don't. I was born here, and have lived here all my life. Did you see where I'm not in favor of a corporation not paying workers for the hours worked and/or for OT properly earned? Look at the very first sentence in my last response.

mnottertail -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 2:13:17 PM)
Let's see, what 'special skills' would you need to be in the top salary bracket for cutting sugar cane? What sort of advanced degree and continuing EUs would qualify for such a rarefied salary of $11 big ones hitting your wallet every hour upon the hour? How can anyone make that sort of money, realistically?

tj444 -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 2:19:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 read my answers again, with what I wrote, not what you think i wrote.. such as, I said if no one gets paid $11/hr then its a lie, which is different than 1 person being paid $11/hr.. No, read my answers again. Just because an employer promises "up to $11/hr." doesn't mean that anyone is guaranteed to get $11/hr. It's entirely possible that none of the applicants met whatever criteria to merit $11/hr. What I did say, though, is that if it wasn't possible for anyone in that position to earn $11/hr., it would be a lie. It's very misleading. I haven't bought a car with a trade-in under any of those "get up to $X for your trade-in regardless of condition" gimmicks, but, technically, they don't have to pay anyone $X for a trade-in if they don't think any trade-ins merit $X credit. quote: and where i said that legal workers with certain visas have pressure on them to not complain about not being paid for all their hours or not being paid for overtime, etc.. of course they are here documented and legal but that doesnt mean they dont have the same fear of being fired and then deported as illegal workers do.. you have no idea what its like to not be an American in America.. [8\|] You're right. I don't. I was born here, and have lived here all my life. Did you see where I'm not in favor of a corporation not paying workers for the hours worked and/or for OT properly earned? Look at the very first sentence in my last response. If the company/companies paid the workers legally then the govt wouldnt have had a case against them, now would they? I have been lied to by employers also so I know how sleazy people/employers here can be.. I have even been threatened by one.. you are saying that legal temporary workers dont have the same fears undocumented workers do and you are wrong about that cuz you dont understand the visa system.. the legal workers paid a recruiter, as much as 20,000 even tho they werent trafficked (as one thinks of trafficking), but it amounts to the same levels of debt and slave wages to pay off the debt..

thompsonx -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 6:56:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail Let's see, what 'special skills' would you need to be in the top salary bracket for cutting sugar cane? What sort of advanced degree and continuing EUs would qualify for such a rarefied salary of $11 big ones hitting your wallet every hour upon the hour? How can anyone make that sort of money, realistically? Only pearl divers and urnal colonels would qualify in that rarified atmosphere. The rest of us can only dream of such largess.

MercTech -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/11/2015 8:40:08 PM)
BTW... "Jackson Free Press" is the local uber liberal rag. Yes, they do tend to seriously slant all their articles. But, I read it because it is the only place that actually carries news about local things. Gannett bought out the daily paper and it now reads like USA Today.

DesideriScuri -> RE: High cost of migrant labor.. (9/12/2015 2:56:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 you are saying that legal temporary workers dont have the same fears undocumented workers do and you are wrong about that cuz you dont understand the visa system.. That may be true, but, undocumented workers have whole "I know I broke your immigration laws in being here, but..." stuff going on that documented workers don't have. quote: the legal workers paid a recruiter, as much as 20,000 even tho they werent trafficked (as one thinks of trafficking), but it amounts to the same levels of debt and slave wages to pay off the debt.. As disgusting as people having to pay traffickers (I think we can agree that it's a form of trafficking) to get here, is that the companies' faults? It might be. It might be paying for that trafficker to get them "proper" workers that can be abused. The company might not have any idea that the "labor supplier" is charging a fee to the workers, either. If the company is intentionally involved in the trafficking, I think gunny has posted the potentially severe penalties for companies that do that (which I mentioned thinking might have been too light, even though they are more severe than just hiring illegals). I've said it already that I don't condone a business not paying for hours worked, and/or not paying OT pay for OT hours worked.

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