RE: True Freedom

RE: True Freedom (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion

[Poll]

True Freedom

True

46% (6)

False

53% (7)

Total Votes : 13

(last vote on : 10/6/2015 6:25:48 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

Kirata -> RE: True Freedom (10/2/2015 8:56:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers First. the 'dogma' is a strawman, "Pinker argues that the 'dogma' that the mind has no innate traits-a doctrine held by many intellectuals during the past century-denies our common humanity and our individual preferences, replaces objective analyses of social problems with feel-good slogans, and distorts our understanding of politics....." I know of no such dogma. It's at least as old as the Stoics. More recently it was espoused by John Locke and Rousseau, and for most of the 20th century developmental psychology assumed that human behavioral traits were due to environmental influences. K.

MrRodgers -> RE: True Freedom (10/3/2015 12:40:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers First. the 'dogma' is a strawman, "Pinker argues that the 'dogma' that the mind has no innate traits-a doctrine held by many intellectuals during the past century-denies our common humanity and our individual preferences, replaces objective analyses of social problems with feel-good slogans, and distorts our understanding of politics....." I know of no such dogma. It's at least as old as the Stoics. More recently it was espoused by John Locke and Rousseau, and for most of the 20th century developmental psychology assumed that human behavioral traits were due to environmental influences. K. Agreeing that Bellamy did not write Looking Backward as a blueprint for political action, it was thereby certainly not as blueprint on human nature. That socialists responded to it means no more then people 'flocking' to buy Oprah's books. As for humans being a product of the environment, there is an example by the subjugation to the state. After the Messenian revolt, Sparta proved the notion of human nature being designed by the environment. (state) Sparta was by 640 BC, turned into a military state. The weak were literally left to parish while the strong by the age of seven began schooling in the military. So there is history of the 'success' of both camps. Historians and intellectuals have described the Ming Dynasty as one of getting ready for battle, in battle or having just left battle. The entire culture (social contract) was one of war. Irrespective of Bellamy's popularity, his book's relation to socialism is superficial at best as in the case of neither a truly comprehensive, socialist state as well as an ideal free market, capitalist state...never having been accomplished in history.

Kirata -> RE: True Freedom (10/3/2015 1:19:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers As for humans being a product of the environment, there is an example by the subjugation to the state. After the Messenian revolt, Sparta proved the notion of human nature being designed by the environment. (state) Sparta was by 640 BC, turned into a military state. The weak were literally left to parish while the strong by the age of seven began schooling in the military. I can't agree that Sparta or any other example "proves" that human nature is a blank slate. Human nature was "designed" (if that's the word you prefer) by natural selection. The only way a state can "design" human nature is by killing everyone in every generation who fails to meet its design specification until it has bred a new race of humans. And unless that state is global, it will sooner or later come into conflict with the overwhelming mass of the rest of humanity. quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Irrespective of Bellamy's popularity, his book's relation to socialism is superficial at best as in the case of neither a truly comprehensive, socialist state as well as an ideal free market, capitalist state...never having been accomplished in history. You do realize that I never connected Bellamy with socialism in any way? That was thomsonx (here). K.

bounty44 -> RE: True Freedom (10/3/2015 2:44:33 AM)
there's generally a difference between left and right in the music we listen to and the tv shows/movies we watch. the thread has me wondering if there are indeed people out there who have never seen braveheart, or having seen it, don't fall squarely on the side of william Wallace and the scots.

PeonForHer -> RE: True Freedom (10/3/2015 3:33:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer I'd not heard of the book, I must admit. It does seem surprising to me, though, that a socialist (though it seems the author avoided that term) would believe that morality has no grounding in human nature. The standard belief amongst socialists is that it's there in human nature, but gets warped by an environment that forces greed and selfishness upon us all. Bellamy viewed his book as a "fairy tale of social felicity" wherein changing the system produced sweetness and light. Socialists flocked to it, and Bellamy raised no objection to his resulting popularity and fame. But whether or not he was ever really a Socialist is subject to debate. When the movement his book started failed financially and was absorbed into the People's Party, he returned to writing. Personally, I've never heard a Socialist propose the argument that humans are naturally moral beings, crushed by the evils of competition. But if they do, then they overlook the fact that we also have a natural capacity for greed and corruption, which has never been eradicated by any system anywhere, Socialist or otherwise, just as the alleged evils of competition have never eradicated moral behavior. K. This is from an outline of 'socialism', per an A Level Politics syllabus here in the UK. To be clear, the content of an A Level course wouldn't get clearance unless it was considered to be widely accepted and unbiased: "Socialism can be divided into two main factions: revolutionary socialists and evolutionary socialists. Both of these branches agree that humans are intrinsically sociable and should be left to work cooperatively, and equally, without an overbearing state corrupting them into egotistical individuals" (https://politicsforalevel.wordpress.com/2010/05/02/socialism-on-human-nature/) Certainly there are aspects of greed and selfishness around. But it's like that meme of the two wolves fighting inside each of us, the bad one and the good one: in order that good one wins, all you have to do is feed it. Thus, you structure your social system in such a way that the cooperative elements of human nature get 'fed' while the greedy and selfish ones starve.

Musicmystery -> RE: True Freedom (10/3/2015 7:34:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 there's generally a difference between left and right in the music we listen to and the tv shows/movies we watch. the thread has me wondering if there are indeed people out there who have never seen braveheart, or having seen it, don't fall squarely on the side of william Wallace and the scots. Choosing, or labeling, which of two sides is an easy pretense to avoid actually sorting through the points raised.

mnottertail -> RE: True Freedom (10/3/2015 7:45:46 AM)
Well, I do now have to spend time wondering what rightwing music is? Is there like some rightwing music station that only plays George M Cohens yankee doodle dandy or something? And if a leftwinger hears it, do they flop sides? Is that what happened to Reagan?

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/3/2015 1:28:09 PM)
ORIGINAL: bounty44 there's generally a difference between left and right in the music we listen to and the tv shows/movies we watch. Besides the whirlpool of your mind where else is this trend noticed or investigated?

thompsonx -> RE: True Freedom (10/3/2015 1:30:08 PM)
ORIGINAL: bounty44 the thread has me wondering if there are indeed people out there who have never seen braveheart, or having seen it, don't fall squarely on the side of william Wallace and the scots. Most educated adults do not use the movies as as source for historical knowledge. That you do speaks volumns about how you do research on historical circumstances.

MrRodgers -> RE: True Freedom (10/4/2015 1:46:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers As for humans being a product of the environment, there is an example by the subjugation to the state. After the Messenian revolt, Sparta proved the notion of human nature being designed by the environment. (state) Sparta was by 640 BC, turned into a military state. The weak were literally left to parish while the strong by the age of seven began schooling in the military. I can't agree that Sparta or any other example "proves" that human nature is a blank slate. Human nature was "designed" (if that's the word you prefer) by natural selection. The only way a state can "design" human nature is by killing everyone in every generation who fails to meet its design specification until it has bred a new race of humans. And unless that state is global, it will sooner or later come into conflict with the overwhelming mass of the rest of humanity. quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers Irrespective of Bellamy's popularity, his book's relation to socialism is superficial at best as in the case of neither a truly comprehensive, socialist state as well as an ideal free market, capitalist state...never having been accomplished in history. You do realize that I never connected Bellamy with socialism in any way? That was thomsonx (here). K. I once read an essay and commentary on what ancient Greece was really like and one learned response humorously suggested, one imagine if the US marines had their own country. A nation (city state within ancient Greece) such as say Sparta, can and did essentially take and create a person's identity. Persons born in Greece were immediately wards of the state and that became their identity. Boys became a warrior or a slave and even then, one had to be strong enough for either. Girls were also taken from the mothers at 7 to become teachers or train for other endeavors. It is commonly acknowledged in the discipline of psychology that the morality and ethics of a person is almost completely formed by their environment. (call it state selection) Furthermore, speaking of killing, history records that at birth in Sparta, one's life was at the mercy of the state's assessment as to your strength and viability to the state and if found insufficient, one was in fact...left to die.

Kirata -> RE: True Freedom (10/4/2015 10:22:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers It is commonly acknowledged in the discipline of psychology that the morality and ethics of a person is almost completely formed by their environment. A "blank slate view" in human developmental psychology assuming that human behavioral traits develop almost exclusively from environmental influences, was widely held during much of the 20th century... As both "nature" and "nurture" factors were found to contribute substantially, often in an extricable manner, such views were seen as naive or outdated by most scholars of human development by the 2000s. ~Source K.

MrRodgers -> RE: True Freedom (10/4/2015 10:34:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers It is commonly acknowledged in the discipline of psychology that the morality and ethics of a person is almost completely formed by their environment. A "blank slate view" in human developmental psychology assuming that human behavioral traits develop almost exclusively from environmental influences, was widely held during much of the 20th century... As both "nature" and "nurture" factors were found to contribute substantially, often in an extricable manner, such views were seen as naive or outdated by most scholars of human development by the 2000s. ~Source K. The nature-nurture debate is declared to be officially redundant by social scientists and scientists, ‘outdated, naive and unhelpful,' ‘a false dichotomy.' Geneticists argue that nature and nurture interact to affect behavior through complex and not yet fully understood ways, but, in practice, the debate continues. Research papers by psychologists and geneticists still use the terms nature and nurture, or genes and environment, to consider their relative influences on, for example, temperament and personality. Still yet undecided and subject for debate. Still say Sparta conditioned a person's creating their entire 'environment' and thus almost completely established the identity of every person, the temperament and their personality.

BamaD -> RE: True Freedom (10/4/2015 10:42:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 there's generally a difference between left and right in the music we listen to and the tv shows/movies we watch. the thread has me wondering if there are indeed people out there who have never seen braveheart, or having seen it, don't fall squarely on the side of william Wallace and the scots. I have never seen Braveheart. This is because I know too much about what actually happened. That and the writer said that he avoided learning about it because the reality would get in the way of the story he wanted to tell. That said I have alway had a soft spot for the Scots. This even though every time they came close to winning a clan not leading the fight would betray them. Scotlands problem was that they never truly became a nation, they were more an alliamce of tribes.

bounty44 -> RE: True Freedom (10/5/2015 4:16:06 AM)
ah, but now I hope you go watch it and look for the underlying themes... and some interesting facts to consider: Study determines the TV shows liberals, conservatives watch Conservatives vs liberals: Their favorite TV shows Media habits of liberals, conservatives: 'different worlds ...

BamaD -> RE: True Freedom (10/5/2015 8:29:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 ah, but now I hope you go watch it and look for the underlying themes... and some interesting facts to consider: Study determines the TV shows liberals, conservatives watch Conservatives vs liberals: Their favorite TV shows Media habits of liberals, conservatives: 'different worlds ... I have watched a lot of Braveheart but I am one of those people who watch Midway and am distracted by them using clips of the F6F when the navy only had F4Fs at the time. The historical problems overroad my enjoyment. On the other hand it is kind of like John Waynes Alamo. I saw two historians discussing it on the history channel (back when it actually did history), they said that virtually every historical detail of the movie was wrong, and it did the best job of conveying the meaning of the incident in ciniematic history. I appreciate the themes but not so much the movie itself.

bounty44 -> RE: True Freedom (10/5/2015 12:52:47 PM)
I completely understand---willing suspension of disbelief is so key in a lot of movies.... i used to ask my students when we'd talk about the relationship between movies and history if there was such a thing as "emotional truth?"

BamaD -> RE: True Freedom (10/5/2015 1:35:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 I completely understand---willing suspension of disbelief is so key in a lot of movies.... i used to ask my students when we'd talk about the relationship between movies and history if there was such a thing as "emotional truth?" Yes I agree that there is. John Waynes Alamo is a perfect example, lousy history great message. Billy Bob Thortons was flawed history with the theme of moral equivelance. Each had what they considered to be the "emotional truth" PS the thing that really got me going in Midway was at the very beginning they had a Japanese flying boat protrayed by a C-130

NorthernGent -> RE: True Freedom (10/5/2015 1:59:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Proposition: True freedom requires freedom from destitution and freedom from the demands of the employer. This proposition appears in an opinion piece published by the Washington Post (here) arguing for a universal basic income. K. Poll edited (with 1 vote cast) to replace "Yes" and "No" with "True" and "False" and remove the sarcastic "What??" option. That sounds like some sort of Social Anarchism line as to the best of my knowledge there are established rules within any relationship. Being 'free from the demands of the employer' seems to ignore everything known about human behaviour and our interaction, which is where Social Anarchism comes in as it's a philosophy which suggests that what we are is not really what we are. The OP is pretty much the old argument that on one side of the coin individuals can only be free through the actions of society and by providing a 'better' society only then can individuals attain the true essence of being human and freedom. And, on the side of the coin the argument goes that society can never coax the individual into being free. I wouldn't agree with either. Freedom is a pipe dream. Emotionally, physically, philosophically and practically. Which, renders The Enlightenment an illusion and he entire system under which we live. But, then that shouldn't be a surprise because to date every few hundred years the people have decided that the system they once thought was as good as it gets, is actually flawed.

NorthernGent -> RE: True Freedom (10/5/2015 2:04:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee Nope. True freedom requires the freedom to starve. So, 'true freedom' amounts to choice alone?

NorthernGent -> RE: True Freedom (10/5/2015 2:07:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub A silly way of thinking and unworkable...I am all for increasing opportunity through education but there are some things that cannot be given... a personal responsibility mindset. Anyone, not disabled either mentally or physically, with a personal responsibility mindset can at least support themselves in this country. We are blessed to have a support system in times of need to aid responsible people until they can find employment in hard economic times. Your wealth may not equal mine or mine yours but how important is wealth when compared to the ability to support yourself responsibly. If you are too proud to dig a ditch or heave a trashcan or flip burgers then you don't deserve the things in life that hard work and perseverance can provide you. Butch What? You can't teach personal responsibility? Where did your mind-set come from? You just woke up one day out of the right side of the bed and it all clicked into place? I think it's demonstrable that your mind-set is the result of the people around you.

Page: << < prev 1 [2] 3 next > >>

Spam Policy

0.046875