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Lucylastic -> Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 3:50:14 AM)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=NGY6DqB1HX8

John Oliver Rips GOP’s Oregon Shooting Reaction: ‘Worst Time to Talk About Mental Health’
The host of HBO’s ‘Last Week Tonight’ slammed GOP presidential candidates for only bringing up mental health ‘as a means of steering the conversation away from gun control.’
Following Thursday’s horrific mass shooting at Oregon’s Umpqua Community College, perpetrated by a 26-year-old armed with six guns, President Obama laid the blame squarely at the feet of the American people for not doing more about gun control.

“This is a political choice that we make to allow this to happen every few months in America,” said Obama. “We collectively are answerable to those families who lose their loves ones because of our inaction.”
The GOP’s crop of 2016 presidential candidates instead cited “mental health” as the chief cause of mass shootings.


This isn’t guns, this is really about mental illness. —Donald Trump.
Do we need to do a better job in mental health? You bet we do. —Mike Huckabee.
In many of these shootings, people have mental disturbances. —Ben Carson.

On Sunday night’s edition of Last Week Tonight with John Oliver, the witty satirist appeared incensed by the GOP candidates’ “mental health” default response in the wake of mass shootings, since it’s the only time right-wingers seem to bring up the country’s mental health problem.

“Perhaps the clearest sign of just how little we want to talk about mental health is that one of the only times it’s actively brought up is, as we’ve seen yet again this week, is in the aftermath of a mass shooting as a means of steering the conversation away from gun control,” said Oliver.

“It seems there is nothing like a mass shooting to suddenly spark political interest in mental health,” continued Oliver. “Although it’s worth noting that Governor Huckabee’s state [Arkansas] got a grade of D- on mental health care while he was in office. And you can’t lecture people on something you got a D- in.”


Oliver then cited a pair of reports indicating that less than 5 percent of the 120,000 gun-related killings were perpetrated by people diagnosed with mental disorders (American Journal of Public Health, February 2015), and that the large majority of people with mental disorders are nonviolent (Annals of Epidemiology, May 2015).

“The aftermath of a mass shooting might actually be the worst time to talk about mental health, because for the record, the vast majority of mentally ill people are nonviolent, and the vast majority of gun violence is committed by non-mentally ill people,” Oliver said. “In fact, mentally ill people are far more likely to be the victims of violence rather than the perpetrators, so the fact that we tend to only discuss mental health in a mass shooting context is deeply misleading.”

Yes, America does have a serious mental health problem. In 2013, an estimated 43.8 million Americans dealt with some form of mental illness, and an estimated 10 million Americans suffer from a serious mental illness each year.

But our country’s history of dealing with mental illness has been embarrassing, to say the least. From decrepit mental asylums—dubbed “snake pits”—to mandatory electroshock therapy, it’s always been a mess. In the 1960s, President Kennedy signed a bill to close down as many of these underperforming asylums as possible and replace them with community health centers—only we never found the proper funding for the centers, and since all the people had to go somewhere, according to Oliver, “some of the places they wound up are shocking.”

In 2009, the AP found that 125,000 young and middle-aged mental health patients were placed in nursing homes. And some states are even involved in “Greyhound Therapy,” where, owing to a lack of space (see: funding), ill patients are discharged too soon and provided with a one-way ticket out of town. If all that weren’t enough, some 2 million people with mental illness go to jail every year, which means there are 10 times more people behind bars than there are receiving psychiatric treatment.

“If we’re going to constantly use mentally ill people to dodge conversations about gun control, then the very least we owe them is a fucking plan.”
“Using the criminal justice system to treat the mentally ill isn’t just ineffective—it’s expensive, and it’s dangerous,” said Oliver. “Because often, when someone is having a mental health emergency, the police will be called, and that can end tragically. By some estimates, an incredible half of all incidents involving the police use of deadly force involve a mentally ill person.”

So how are we combating mental illness? By not doing much. Only 15 percent of law enforcement agencies have Crisis Intervention training programs to prevent those high numbers of police use of deadly force against the mentally infirm, and programs like Assertive Community Treatment, which is “designed to let those with serious mental illnesses live in the community by providing regular in-home visits and help coordinating assistance in things like housing and employment,” are constantly defunded due to budget cuts or Medicaid reimbursement problems.

“The public safety net for the mentally ill spans Medicaid, which is different across the country; eight federal agencies who administer 112 different programs that in some way touch on mental health; and the social service agencies in each of the 50 states,” said Oliver. “It’s a clusterfuck.”


“We as a society, we have to figure out how to fund [mental health programs]—not just because it makes fiscal sense, but because it would save lives. And if I remember rightly, there are some politicians who claim to be pretty motivated to address this problem,” said Oliver, again throwing to the post-Umpqua shooting quotes by Trump, Huckabee, and Carson, about how we need to address our country’s mental health problem.

“OK, fine—do it then,” shouted Oliver. “Because if we’re going to constantly use mentally ill people to dodge conversations about gun control, then the very least we owe them is a fucking plan.”




LadyPact -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 5:13:28 AM)

Some of the health care differences between our countries is going to temper my answer.

Here? I can tell you that 'treat 'em and street 'em' is pretty much the order of the day. Beds in mental health facilities aren't exactly plentiful and unless imminent danger is obviously apparent (either to the patient or to somebody else) the person probably isn't getting that 28+ day stay. Most likely, we're talking about deals where the patient comes in for the 48-72 hour period. They get meds or their meds are regulated. (Temp script, not even the 30 day supply.) Once "stable," they are released. If a person doesn't walk in declaring they are suicidal, they might not even get that much.

I'd like to hear a bit about how mental health situations are dealt with in those countries that have National Health Care.




Lucylastic -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 5:47:14 AM)

We have the same ilk of politicians who whinge about funding and defund mental healthcare way too often.
We have police shooting mentally ill patients too. And the jails are full because they dont have anywhere to put people who really SHOULDNT be in a jail environment.. Or have the staff to deal with and care for them.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/justice-canada-report-mentally-ill-offenders-1.3244619
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mentally-ill-inmates-kept-in-grossly-inadequate-conditions-1.2554110
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canadas-prisons-becoming-warehouses-for-the-mentally-ill/article4236899/
You can see by the dates, how long it has been an issue.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/police-shootings-often-involve-mental-illness-and-ill-prepared-officers-1.2850020


The UK was horrible when I was there, but I dont know if it has improved, gotton worse or is in the same sitch with Canada and the US.




LadyPact -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 7:06:05 AM)

While I wouldn't say treatment of the mentally ill has been "good" here, I think it got worse with the inception of HMOs. The money goes to terminal, physical illnesses far sooner than mental ones. Disease that we know is going to kill you? Check? Disease that isn't imminent danger or death? Let me get a band aide for you. We'll patch you and hope you don't get septic.

Since you linked that article, I will say that criminal cases that are won by reason of mental disease or defect are rare on our side of the border. It's often called the last ditch defense. It doesn't happen nearly as often as folks think it does because of what they see on tv or the high profile cases, like the shooter from Aurora, CO. We've decided that we don't execute sick people, so an attorney grasping at straws to keep their client alive might be able to make a case. Percentages of a win are extremely low.

Best way to get mental health care? Walk yourself into a treatment facility and tell whoever is working reception that you are suicidal. If they have space available, you can be signed in for at least an overnight. You might get somebody to pay attention to you.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 7:53:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


I'd like to hear a bit about how mental health situations are dealt with in those countries that have National Health Care.


I don't think it's really any better here LP.

Obviously we don't get the same level of gun incidents here that would hi-light the problem and thrust it into the media spotlight, but there have been a number of controversial events that have brought the topic more into focus.

But just like the US, budget constraints seem to be blamed for most of the failings across the board.
Lack of trained staff, insufficient facilities, nonexistent aftercare... etc etc.

My SO's mother is bedridden in a specialized care home with an advanced form of neurovascular dementia and although she seems to be comfortable, it's barely more than an existence for her.
We are lucky that she is cared for, but many with less serious symptoms are not.




blnymph -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 8:15:19 AM)

IRONY:

if we had better and more care for those with mental health problems, how many politicians would then qualify for it?

- unIRONY




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 8:17:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

IRONY:

if we had better and more care for those with mental health problems, how many politicians would then qualify for it?

- unIRONY

I thought it was a required qualification for a politician. [:D]




blnymph -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 8:56:28 AM)

You might be right - the more challenged the more qualified




BamaD -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 9:23:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

You might be right - the more challenged the more qualified

Do you know what they call a politician who isn't honesty challeged?
Unemployed.




cloudboy -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 10:10:37 AM)

The trouble is a loud, determined group of Americans see gun control as an effort by the government to limit individual freedoms and push otherwise law abiding citizens around. Couple this with how guns somehow make these same Americans feel empowered, and its a political hot potato.

Referendum votes would probably pass stricter gun laws in most states.




OsideGirl -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 10:41:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Some of the health care differences between our countries is going to temper my answer.

Here? I can tell you that 'treat 'em and street 'em' is pretty much the order of the day. Beds in mental health facilities aren't exactly plentiful and unless imminent danger is obviously apparent (either to the patient or to somebody else) the person probably isn't getting that 28+ day stay. Most likely, we're talking about deals where the patient comes in for the 48-72 hour period. They get meds or their meds are regulated. (Temp script, not even the 30 day supply.) Once "stable," they are released. If a person doesn't walk in declaring they are suicidal, they might not even get that much.

I'd like to hear a bit about how mental health situations are dealt with in those countries that have National Health Care.



My brother's fiance attempted to kill herself at the end of April (2011). She was put on a 5150 hold and released. She tried again a month later. Another 5150 hold and released. Kaiser gave her an appointment to see a psychiatrist for September 8th. She killed herself on September 6th.

A 4 month wait to see a Doctor when she had attempted suicide twice.




BamaD -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 10:59:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

The trouble is a loud, determined group of Americans see gun control as an effort by the government to limit individual freedoms and push otherwise law abiding citizens around. Couple this with how guns somehow make these same Americans feel empowered, and its a political hot potato.

Referendum votes would probably pass stricter gun laws in most states.

Only in those states that already have strict gun control.
The most recent polls show a substantional majority are against new gun control measures.
The trouble is a loud minority want to blame the tool for the persons actions.
The reason we think it is just a tool to push people around and gain power for the government is that every gun control measure the gunaphobes come up with is based on the trickle down theory of criminology. That is that if we put the screws to the law abiding eventually, a decade or so from now it will get to the criminals. Of course this means a defensless population for a decade even if they are right (which they aren't) but at least the government has more power.




LadyPact -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 11:05:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
The trouble is a loud, determined group of Americans see gun control as an effort by the government to limit individual freedoms and push otherwise law abiding citizens around. Couple this with how guns somehow make these same Americans feel empowered, and its a political hot potato.

Referendum votes would probably pass stricter gun laws in most states.

Just for discussion purposes, ok?

Problem one that you've got there is we so-called 'loud determined group' (at least on a forum like this one) are pretty much law abiding people (we can debate the legality of participating in BDSM elsewhere) who really aren't the nutjobs who run out and start shooting people. Restrictions on purchases really don't deter the criminals.

You might be right about some states. Particularly ones where hunting isn't prevalent. Ones where it is, mountain areas, and farm country, I'd see the chances as less, so let's just say we split that in half.

The mental health angle. I'm willing to step out on a limb and say that anybody who goes out and shoots up a bunch of people that they don't know and call the shooter crazy. I can't grasp how anybody who would do that would be sane. Still, not all mentally ill people do that, so that criteria doesn't help, either. That means you have the same problem that you do now.

The other problem is, in the Oregon case, you're dealing with a legal adult. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to get an outside agency to be convinced that someone is a dangerous individual if they haven't physically harmed anyone yet?





LadyPact -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 11:30:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
My brother's fiance attempted to kill herself at the end of April (2011). She was put on a 5150 hold and released. She tried again a month later. Another 5150 hold and released. Kaiser gave her an appointment to see a psychiatrist for September 8th. She killed herself on September 6th.

A 4 month wait to see a Doctor when she had attempted suicide twice.


First, let me say sorry for your loss.

Second, I'm sad to say it but I'm really not surprised. That temp hold will be over the minute they figure the person isn't in imminent danger of doing something right now.





joether -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 12:17:00 PM)

Sooner or later, there will be so great a moment of death and destruction by one or more individuals with firearms, that the nation will get behind better and tougher laws. The gun industry, NRA, GOP/TP and conservatives will not have an argument worth listening to. Instead they'll be given a choice: More and Tough Gun Laws (read: common sense laws that should be on the books) or ban 'em all. Given that most people, still reeling from the sight and sensation of the destruction will be opting for 'ban 'em all'.

But blaming all the shootings in American on someone whom is mentally and/or emotionally compromised is a weak argument. There have been many instances of people with guns having 'anger management issues' towards their loved ones. Brian Short, recently killed his daughters and wife before turning the gun on himself. Yes, someone could say he might have been suffering from some sort of mental/emotional illness. The problem is diagnosing such a thing.

Diagnosing such a thing takes...A LONG TIME....

Its not just walk into the therapist session once and get the verdict. It would take three to six months to make a proper understanding with a trained individual. All the gun nuts on here nor in America are trained to that level. Likewise, there is no such thing as 'mental screening' to determine if someone is suffering a mental/emotional problem, or a physical one that can mask itself as a mental/emotional issue.

How many GOP/TP candidates running for the Oval Office talked about the recent mass shooting in an intelligent, rational, studied manner? None of them. The NRA probably told them to shut up and ignore it. I wish them to ignore it more often! Since voters will get tired of the shit, vote Democrat in the next election and get better controls in place.

There are many ways we as a nation could reduce firearm violence that are reasonable measures and not a violation of the 2nd amendment. The gun nuts will say and do.....ANYTHING....to stop it. Its upt to the nation's citizens to decide how much they enjoy funerals....




BamaD -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 12:23:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Sooner or later, there will be so great a moment of death and destruction by one or more individuals with firearms, that the nation will get behind better and tougher laws. The gun industry, NRA, GOP/TP and conservatives will not have an argument worth listening to. Instead they'll be given a choice: More and Tough Gun Laws (read: common sense laws that should be on the books) or ban 'em all. Given that most people, still reeling from the sight and sensation of the destruction will be opting for 'ban 'em all'.

But blaming all the shootings in American on someone whom is mentally and/or emotionally compromised is a weak argument. There have been many instances of people with guns having 'anger management issues' towards their loved ones. Brian Short, recently killed his daughters and wife before turning the gun on himself. Yes, someone could say he might have been suffering from some sort of mental/emotional illness. The problem is diagnosing such a thing.

Diagnosing such a thing takes...A LONG TIME....

Its not just walk into the therapist session once and get the verdict. It would take three to six months to make a proper understanding with a trained individual. All the gun nuts on here nor in America are trained to that level. Likewise, there is no such thing as 'mental screening' to determine if someone is suffering a mental/emotional problem, or a physical one that can mask itself as a mental/emotional issue.

How many GOP/TP candidates running for the Oval Office talked about the recent mass shooting in an intelligent, rational, studied manner? None of them. The NRA probably told them to shut up and ignore it. I wish them to ignore it more often! Since voters will get tired of the shit, vote Democrat in the next election and get better controls in place.

There are many ways we as a nation could reduce firearm violence that are reasonable measures and not a violation of the 2nd amendment. The gun nuts will say and do.....ANYTHING....to stop it. Its upt to the nation's citizens to decide how much they enjoy funerals....

Not a gun thread.
I see you are drooling over the thought of more dead innocents.




joether -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 12:35:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

Sooner or later, there will be so great a moment of death and destruction by one or more individuals with firearms, that the nation will get behind better and tougher laws. The gun industry, NRA, GOP/TP and conservatives will not have an argument worth listening to. Instead they'll be given a choice: More and Tough Gun Laws (read: common sense laws that should be on the books) or ban 'em all. Given that most people, still reeling from the sight and sensation of the destruction will be opting for 'ban 'em all'.

But blaming all the shootings in American on someone whom is mentally and/or emotionally compromised is a weak argument. There have been many instances of people with guns having 'anger management issues' towards their loved ones. Brian Short, recently killed his daughters and wife before turning the gun on himself. Yes, someone could say he might have been suffering from some sort of mental/emotional illness. The problem is diagnosing such a thing.

Diagnosing such a thing takes...A LONG TIME....

Its not just walk into the therapist session once and get the verdict. It would take three to six months to make a proper understanding with a trained individual. All the gun nuts on here nor in America are trained to that level. Likewise, there is no such thing as 'mental screening' to determine if someone is suffering a mental/emotional problem, or a physical one that can mask itself as a mental/emotional issue.

How many GOP/TP candidates running for the Oval Office talked about the recent mass shooting in an intelligent, rational, studied manner? None of them. The NRA probably told them to shut up and ignore it. I wish them to ignore it more often! Since voters will get tired of the shit, vote Democrat in the next election and get better controls in place.

There are many ways we as a nation could reduce firearm violence that are reasonable measures and not a violation of the 2nd amendment. The gun nuts will say and do.....ANYTHING....to stop it. Its upt to the nation's citizens to decide how much they enjoy funerals....

Not a gun thread.
I see you are drooling over the thought of more dead innocents.


BULLSHIT.

Here's from Lucy's OP:
quote:


This isn’t guns, this is really about mental illness. —Donald Trump.
Do we need to do a better job in mental health? You bet we do. —Mike Huckabee.
In many of these shootings, people have mental disturbances. —Ben Carson.


The whole of the OP is about firearms and mental/emotional illness. An you do not have even a half decent counter argument to either of our posts is quite telling. What's wrong? Has the conservative media not given you talking points to counter liberal free thinking, yet?

There are many common sense laws that should be on the books right now. The whole of them would drastically reduce firearm violence between Americans. Your against such laws. Well, more people are joining the "lets ban 'em all" group rather than the 'NRA' every time a shooting has taken place. Better you side with the common sense laws on firearms before to many Americans join the "ban 'em all group".

Yes, you and others will be jumping through hoops; and most Americans will not give a shit. Because we'll have better firearm regulations, less mass shootings, and fewer deaths due to firearms across the nation. Better start deciding what you want more: get on the band wagon for better common sense laws, or ban 'em all.




Tkman117 -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 12:40:51 PM)

Lol, is that what you think he's doing? He's saying there will one day be an incident so horrible that it finally wakes you morons up from your blind adoration of killing machines and finally change things around. The death of school children clearly wasn't enough, so what will?




blnymph -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 1:07:40 PM)

The trouble with mass shooters and mental illness is that all/most/many/some/few (I have no figures for that, and those that get shot can no longer be asked) obviously seem to be perfectly convinced that they are the truly mentally normal and sane ones when they walk around shooting ...

Some might remember Anders Brejvik in Norway who believed he was the only sane person in court even when he was locked away ...




BamaD -> RE: Mental health satirical truth?? (10/5/2015 1:29:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

Lol, is that what you think he's doing? He's saying there will one day be an incident so horrible that it finally wakes you morons up from your blind adoration of killing machines and finally change things around. The death of school children clearly wasn't enough, so what will?

He constantly gloats about how some day there will be an incident that will give him a political advantage. Remember the laws Obama wanted to "fix" things after Sandy Hook would have, by his own admission, done nothing to stop such things. Mental health problems and over medication have more to do with this than guns. When I was 16 I could order a gun by mail. Kids at high school had hunting rifles in their pickups. There were no school shootings. Crime was lower then the left decided, based on the UT shooting and the Richard Speck massacare (where he used a knife) that gun control was the way to go. It doesn't work. Joe comes up with all kinds of wacko excuses to take away guns all with holes you can push a mack truck through, and most refuted outright by the writters of the 2nd amendment. He says his wisdom is greater than theirs and that we sould let the government do our thinking for us. Do you really think a person like that really cares about a couple of dead kids? No he is just in love with government control.




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