RE: Alarming statistics (Full Version)

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PeonForHer -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 3:04:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

We'll have another mass shooting in about 3-4 weeks from now if we are lucky.

Beyond fucking words...

K.




I think he meant three to four weeks, rather than, say, just a week, K.




bounty44 -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 3:41:31 AM)

i imagine this could have gone in any of 3-4 threads...saw this last night with Sandra smith sitting in for megyn Kelly:

Hillary Clinton Pushes Change Allowing Shooting Victims To Sue Gun Makers In Wake Of Oregon Attack




Lucylastic -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 5:24:58 AM)

Police arrested two men suspected of shoplifting from a Home Depot in Auburn Hills from a Tuesday incident where a woman fired shots at them, police announced Friday.

The Flint men, ages 52 and 46, allegedly drove away in a black Kia as the 46-year-old Clarkston woman pulled her concealed pistol and opened fire in the parking lot, flattening a tire as they got away, Auburn Hills Police Department reports.The 52-year-old was arrested this morning, and the 46-year-old was arrested Thursday evening, both in Flint.

The woman has not been arrested, and has been cooperative, but she could face charges once the investigation is complete, police said.

Officers responded to the business at about 2 p.m. Tuesday on a report of shots fired. They found that the woman, a concealed-pistol license holder, was trying to stop a man as he pushed a cart full of unpaid merchandise out of the store, according to police.

Both men could face charges of felony retail fraud because the items stolen were worth more than $1,000, police said. First-degree retail fraud is punishable by up to five years in prison and fines of up to $10,000 or three times the value of the stolen property.

The case against the men will be presented to the Oakland County Prosecutor's Office for possible charges, police said.




Kirata -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 8:24:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

We'll have another mass shooting in about 3-4 weeks from now if we are lucky.

Beyond fucking words...

I think he meant three to four weeks, rather than, say, just a week, K.

I think you're both living on another planet. He can't help it, but what's your excuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4846018

K.




Kirata -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 8:41:34 AM)


~ FR ~

More generally, this whole "mass shooting/mass murder" meme is unabashed propaganda. If some group called for a protest at Parliament and only four people showed up, the Times of London would not being running a headline reading, "Mass Protest at Parliament". We've had some mass murders in our world's sad history, and the comparison should be offensive to anyone who remembers them.

I'm the one who owns our website www.shootingtracker.com a nice bit of work we've been able to get used on-air on MSNBC and CNN, in print at Mother Jones and Reuters, and cited in peer reviewed academic journals like the American Journal of Public Health among other places... My fascination with propaganda began some years ago when I was studying journalism at Berkeley ~Source

K.




BamaD -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 8:43:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Saw a meme last week:

Ban Abortions!
Ban Gay Marriage!
Ban Immigration!
...but banning guns won't work, because people will find a way.

Now, no one's asking to ban guns, simply pursue logical regulation common in civilized countries.
But the meme does highlight (if only by parody) the myopia of the circle-the-wagons-gun-defense paranoia.



Do you even read what some of the anti gun people post in these pages?

Few suggest a look at the existing laws to fix them, most point out that if guns were impossible to get ahold of, mass shootings wont happen.

The majority post statistics that not only include criminal acts, but suicides and accidents, then inflate the number by however many points the source came up with.

Then of course you have the ones that make it clear that from their point of view all gun owners are responsible for the whatever happened, that a specific weapon or type of weapon is the problem, so "ban" or "restriction" is the only logical answer.

First of all, the "restriction" aspect has been covered by existing laws, the problem comes into focus when you look at enforcement, or even getting the information collected to prevent the purchase in the first place.

All of the flags under the "restriction of purchase" regulations should pop up with the current back ground checks required. This means that the NCIS as well as two other data bases should have the information readily available.

The operative word here is "should."

Here is why they dont work. The NCIS system is underfunded, poorly maintained, and the fact that there is no funding available to fix the problems are a direct result in the fact that funds have been budgeted, but never fully allocated.

You want the problems fixed, the solution is easy. Get people elected that will fix the current problems and not create a shit ton more by writing legislation that further complicate the fucking situation.

Stop talking to the so called experts and talk to the people that have to actually make the current laws work and ask them what the problems are.

As I said before, you are looking at a government body that takes a simple little problem that barely requires a page to write a solution and then complicates to the point of needing a thousand pages of bullshit that not even the people who wrote it understand.





BamaD -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 8:51:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Bama, all the tremors movies were bad movies, that is the great thing about them.

And it was Tremors 3, actually. Tremors 4 was set back in the old west when Burt's great grandfather dealt with the damn things the first time (he left Burt a lot of silver, but not a journal telling him of the encounter, if he had, Burt would have built his house better and not had to blow the damn thing up in Tremors 3)

You are the 2nd person to tell me that I had flipped 3 & 4.
Bad movies but fun.
But he was right about the government "help"
The scariest phrase in the English language "I'm from the government and I am here to help you"
"The government could mess up a wet dream"




jlf1961 -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:09:40 AM)

Lucy, I have a challenge for you, and you will get an all expense 2 week paid vacation out of it, first class all the way.

I will pay the first class expenses for everyone from another country who has been telling us that the problem is legal gun ownership from their hometown to LA.

Once in LA you have to do just one thing.

Go down to south central, and ask every gang member to give you their guns. That would take an estimated 10000 firearms off the streets in just one metropolitan area.

I mean you folks are telling us that the legal law abiding citizens need to give up owning firearms or accept even more restrictions on that ownership.

I just ask you folks to do one thing, get the illegal guns in the hands of criminals out of their possession.

God knows we have tried. So I am guessing it is our approach.

Oh, and I will also foot the bill for some stylish Kevlar, and the best available, with trauma plates to protect all vital organs. Of course, that will only protect the torso.




mnottertail -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:14:04 AM)

If the cops know there are 10000 illegal guns in south central, why don't they just go in there and do their job and take those guns away from the felons?


Sounds like a police problem to me.




ifmaz -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:19:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

As I have written, regardless of the numbers while NCIS applications to tend to support my theory.

In America going back over 200 years to what was predominantly a hunting based society, most people and that is most people...a large majority, were expected to own a gun, mostly for hunting, then for sport.

We have created therefore...a gun culture and it wouldn't be a leap of logic to suggest that far too many deaths using a gun no matter how and by whom, is almost directly as a result of this gun culture.

As for other countries and their laws vs gun deaths. They can come here and get them fairly easily and illegal guns soon become no different than...illegal drugs against which unlike guns, we have a multi-billion $ law based, prevention regime.


The data indicates that an overwhelmingly large percentage of firearms are not involved in any murder. If we continue looking at data, 71.15M cars were sold in 2014 while there were 33,804 vehicle-related deaths. There seems to be a higher percentage of vehicles used to kill than firearms.

I would advise against citing the War on Drugs as a shining example of what laws can prevent.




jlf1961 -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:19:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If the cops know there are 10000 illegal guns in south central, why don't they just go in there and do their job and take those guns away from the felons?


Sounds like a police problem to me.



Right, actually it is not so much as a policeman problem, but a problem of manpower, the fact that most criminals have police out matched in firepower as well as manpower.

There are 9,843 officers in the Los Angeles county police department, the population of LA is over three million.




ifmaz -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:22:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If the cops know there are 10000 illegal guns in south central, why don't they just go in there and do their job and take those guns away from the felons?


Sounds like a police problem to me.


Where specifically does one go to acquire these 10,000 illegal guns in South Central? Should we have the police start kicking in doors and searching homes to find these illegal firearms?




Musicmystery -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:45:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Saw a meme last week:

Ban Abortions!
Ban Gay Marriage!
Ban Immigration!
...but banning guns won't work, because people will find a way.

Now, no one's asking to ban guns, simply pursue logical regulation common in civilized countries.
But the meme does highlight (if only by parody) the myopia of the circle-the-wagons-gun-defense paranoia.



Do you even read what some of the anti gun people post in these pages?

Few suggest a look at the existing laws to fix them, most point out that if guns were impossible to get ahold of, mass shootings wont happen.

The majority post statistics that not only include criminal acts, but suicides and accidents, then inflate the number by however many points the source came up with.

Then of course you have the ones that make it clear that from their point of view all gun owners are responsible for the whatever happened, that a specific weapon or type of weapon is the problem, so "ban" or "restriction" is the only logical answer.

First of all, the "restriction" aspect has been covered by existing laws, the problem comes into focus when you look at enforcement, or even getting the information collected to prevent the purchase in the first place.

All of the flags under the "restriction of purchase" regulations should pop up with the current back ground checks required. This means that the NCIS as well as two other data bases should have the information readily available.

The operative word here is "should."

Here is why they dont work. The NCIS system is underfunded, poorly maintained, and the fact that there is no funding available to fix the problems are a direct result in the fact that funds have been budgeted, but never fully allocated.

You want the problems fixed, the solution is easy. Get people elected that will fix the current problems and not create a shit ton more by writing legislation that further complicate the fucking situation.

Stop talking to the so called experts and talk to the people that have to actually make the current laws work and ask them what the problems are.

As I said before, you are looking at a government body that takes a simple little problem that barely requires a page to write a solution and then complicates to the point of needing a thousand pages of bullshit that not even the people who wrote it understand.

Do you believe the keyboard warriors who post attitudes here are a representative sample?

Bottom line -- the big gun confiscation predicted hasn't happened and isn't in the works. Meanwhile, reasonable laws in civilized countries work.

Meanwhile, Gun sales hit a record high for the fifth month in a row. That's in a country where there are 112 guns per citizen. So manufacturers have to rely on (1) trumped up fears and (2) invented reasons you need new, more advanced guns. The market is saturated.

Wake up. The tail is wagging the dog.




Kirata -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:48:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

That's in a country where there are 112 guns per citizen.

The current population estimate is ~318 million, with an estimated 310 million guns in private hands.

Do you have different figures?

K.





mnottertail -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:50:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If the cops know there are 10000 illegal guns in south central, why don't they just go in there and do their job and take those guns away from the felons?


Sounds like a police problem to me.


Where specifically does one go to acquire these 10,000 illegal guns in South Central? Should we have the police start kicking in doors and searching homes to find these illegal firearms?



but we advocate that as a method to get illegal aliens, just round em up, so this simplistic shit being bandied about has been discredited altogether then? so, we dont know where the guns are and we dont know there are 10000 illegal guns in south central and many other things.




ifmaz -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:52:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Do you believe the keyboard warriors who post attitudes here are a representative sample?

Bottom line -- the big gun confiscation predicted hasn't happened and isn't in the works. Meanwhile, reasonable laws in civilized countries work.

Meanwhile, Gun sales hit a record high for the fifth month in a row. That's in a country where there are 112 guns per citizen. So manufacturers have to rely on (1) trumped up fears and (2) invented reasons you need new, more advanced guns. The market is saturated.

Wake up. The tail is wagging the dog.


What "civilized" countries' "reasonable laws" are you referring to specifically?




ifmaz -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:54:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

If the cops know there are 10000 illegal guns in south central, why don't they just go in there and do their job and take those guns away from the felons?


Sounds like a police problem to me.


Where specifically does one go to acquire these 10,000 illegal guns in South Central? Should we have the police start kicking in doors and searching homes to find these illegal firearms?



but we advocate that as a method to get illegal aliens, just round em up, so this simplistic shit being bandied about has been discredited altogether then? so, we dont know where the guns are and we dont know there are 10000 illegal guns in south central and many other things.


So you're advocating the destruction of the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution altogether, is that accurate?




mnottertail -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 9:58:06 AM)

nothing could be less accurate. is English a second or third language for you?




BamaD -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 10:01:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

As I have written, regardless of the numbers while NCIS applications to tend to support my theory.

In America going back over 200 years to what was predominantly a hunting based society, most people and that is most people...a large majority, were expected to own a gun, mostly for hunting, then for sport.

We have created therefore...a gun culture and it wouldn't be a leap of logic to suggest that far too many deaths using a gun no matter how and by whom, is almost directly as a result of this gun culture.

As for other countries and their laws vs gun deaths. They can come here and get them fairly easily and illegal guns soon become no different than...illegal drugs against which unlike guns, we have a multi-billion $ law based, prevention regime.


The data indicates that an overwhelmingly large percentage of firearms are not involved in any murder. If we continue looking at data, 71.15M cars were sold in 2014 while there were 33,804 vehicle-related deaths. There seems to be a higher percentage of vehicles used to kill than firearms.

I would advise against citing the War on Drugs as a shining example of what laws can prevent.


Let me see, there and less cars than guns, slightly more car related deaths that gun related deaths, far more car related injuries than gun related injuries, 2/3 of the gun related deaths are suicides, so obviously it is guns we need to go aftere. Of course this is because cars aren't designed to kill, which seems to be a product related problem. The product that isn't designed to kill is involved in more death and destruction than the one that they allege is. We realy need to do something about cars.




ifmaz -> RE: Alarming statistics (10/10/2015 10:01:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

nothing could be less accurate. is English a second or third language for you?


If you would prefer that I personally insult you I can do that as well.

quote:


ORIGINAL: mnottertail

but we advocate that as a method to get illegal aliens, just round em up, so this simplistic shit being bandied about has been discredited altogether then? so, we dont know where the guns are and we dont know there are 10000 illegal guns in south central and many other things.


Your statement implies that since certain people advocate the "rounding up" of illegal aliens without regards to their 4th Amendment rights, the same should be done to confiscate illegal firearms.




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