Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (Full Version)

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cloudboy -> Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/16/2015 3:19:32 PM)

Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky

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The “no means no” mantra of a generation ago is being eclipsed by “yes means yes” as more young people all over the country are told that they must have explicit permission from the object of their desire before they engage in any touching, kissing or other sexual activity. With Gov. Jerry Brown’s signature on a bill this month, California became the first state to require that all high school health education classes give lessons on affirmative consent, which includes explaining that someone who is drunk or asleep cannot grant consent.

Last year, California led the way in requiring colleges to use affirmative consent as the standard in campus disciplinary decisions, defining how and when people agree to have sex. More than a dozen legislatures in other states, including Maryland, Michigan and Utah, are considering similar legislation for colleges. One goal is to improve the way colleges and universities deal with accusations of rape and sexual assault and another is to reduce the number of young people who feel pressured into unwanted sexual conduct.

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Do you think it's possible to stop rapes and sexual assaults or harassment by enacting "affirmative consent" legislation?

Do you think teaching affirmative consent to teenagers is the right approach?




Missokyst -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/16/2015 4:31:58 PM)

This came across my facebook feed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

Cute.



Missokyst -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/16/2015 4:34:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Do you think it's possible to stop rapes and sexual assaults or harassment by enacting "affirmative consent" legislation?

Do you think teaching affirmative consent to teenagers is the right approach?


I don't think the legislation will stop rape and assaults because there is still the attitude of "boys will be boys" in play.
But, I DO think the legislation will make it easier to get a conviction if a rape happens.
Hopefully



MercTech -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/16/2015 8:53:57 PM)

I think I want some tea.....



DesFIP -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/17/2015 8:51:34 AM)

I think it's a good start.

It changes the feeling of entitlement unless she screams no to the fact that you aren't entitled to anything.

What needs to happen next is to teach respect of others. And the understanding that women are people too, equally to be respected. Not to view them as walking breasts and vaginas.

To be honest, I don't know how to do that for teen aged boys. I know that what got this through to my brother, my son, my nephews was that we've spent many years summering in a primarily gay community. Having some older man view them sexually, make rude comments about them, taught them that treating others in this way was wrong. Years of education didn't do nearly as much as a guy chasing after them for ten minutes, not respecting their no.



LadyPact -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/17/2015 5:56:21 PM)

which includes explaining that someone who is drunk or asleep cannot grant consent.

Seriously? That's difficult for you?



DesFIP -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/17/2015 8:46:05 PM)

Obviously someone unable to consent is wrong.

But getting a teen aged male to really understand is difficult. They don't think properly. Frontal love development is not complete in boys until age 25 whereas in females it's age 20.

How to get someone who can't think properly to suddenly think like an adult when their brain lacks that capability is a problem. If this weren't the case, then young males wouldn't be the ones primarily entering the prison system.

Whereas having the visceral experience, which isn't something you think about, but is something that is an emotional reaction, taught them in a way that reasoned discourse did not. Because the emotional responses work even when the brain really doesn't.



CarpeComa -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/18/2015 12:13:46 AM)

All affirmative consent will do is turn everyone who isn't a rapist/assaulter into a monk. You don't think so? Try applying it to your own life. Have you asked for permission for every encounter or touch you initiated? If not, congrats, you are now a criminal under affirmative consent laws. How much do you think you would like having to do that or be on the receiving end of that? Remember, the law doesn't care for whatever agreements you have made.

As it won't be able to provide any more evidence in 'he said, she said' situations, the only way affirmative consent can have the teeth its supporters want is to erode due process to where the accusation becomes guilt. The 'accusation is guilt' direction is the way these college tribunals have been leaning (which is why they are getting lawsuits). Title IX has certainly been the gift that keeps on giving.

Overall, this affirmative consent push is just a power grab being delivered inside a 'poor helpless women' Trojan horse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

But getting a teen aged male to really understand is difficult.


Bullshit. Besides, I'm not sure you want to try to use that argument. Have you followed it to the logical conclusion?



LadyPact -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/18/2015 1:28:27 AM)

I don't know. I happen to think that 'enthusiastic, affirmative consent' is the best shot that we've got at this thing.

When I first got into kink/alt relationships, if somebody would have thrown the phrase, 'enthusiastic, affirmative consent' at me, I'd have been dumbfounded. We didn't know what that was back then.

Just because we didn't know then, doesn't excuse ignorance now. A person would have to be hiding under a rock to have no clue that touching someone in their sleep holds no possible negative outcome. That's the risk that I accept when touching anyone in a sexual manner. Does that make me overly cautious now? Probably.

But, ya know, it's not really any different than anything else. Do you think that blood players in the 70's still do things the same way today? Didn't they/we acquire more information about things like blood born pathogens and stuff that folks 'used' to do become obsolete? You can apply this to any other kind of kink games that we play.

Oh, and, as a personal favor, skip that gender stuff.





NookieNotes -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/19/2015 7:25:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa

All affirmative consent will do is turn everyone who isn't a rapist/assaulter into a monk. You don't think so? Try applying it to your own life. Have you asked for permission for every encounter or touch you initiated? If not, congrats, you are now a criminal under affirmative consent laws. How much do you think you would like having to do that or be on the receiving end of that?


I love it.

I have NOT been that way my whole life, but now that I am that way (ie. getting enthusiastic consent for ALL of my encounters), I feel so much more alive.

And getting consent is FUCKING sexy!

And for those, like myself, who were initially shy, introverted, awkward types, it's AMAZING. I never have to wonder. I ask if my touch is welcome, if my objectifying gaze is welcome, if my dirty talk is welcome, and I KNOW, immediately, if it is or is not.

I can't say good enough things about it.

I have also violated my own consent rules. And it turned out OK, because the victims didn't notice that I broke my own rules, and welcomed my participation. But, I have been uncomfortable about it, and learned from it.



blacksword404 -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/19/2015 5:57:08 PM)

FR

I always tell women I'm with that they will be fucked in their sleep. So if you don't want it,sleep elsewhere. Apparently that makes me a rapist. Also I've been rape too. Multiple times. I've been woken up by chick enthusiastically sucking me more than a few times. But sleeping people can't consent.

Welcome to the future.

M: Can I touch your hand?
W: Yes.
M: Can I rub your face?
W: Yes
W: Can I rub your dick?
M: Yes
M: Can I kiss you while I rub your ass?
W: Yes

Oh and you'll need to record it all. At least the audio. And retain it for the rest of your life. In case rape is claimed later on.



Greta75 -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/19/2015 7:25:54 PM)

That's why it's good for men to practice to ask the woman, "I want you to tell me to fuck you!" Or something, reaffirm it by asking her to ask you to do it.

Or either be super intuitive which is more difficult, that takes talent, you either have it or you don't. Many men don't.



shiftyw -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/19/2015 7:54:23 PM)

I don't let people sleep fuck me. I'd be sleeping elsewhere.
I don't sleep fuck/suck people.

I'm a rape victim and I don't take consent lightly. I've demanded this type of consent from my partners (and them asking it of me) for the better part of 8 years. If you can't hang with it, you can't hang with it and chances are we won't get very far, and as far as I'm concerned- its their loss.

Yes is fucking sexy. Nothing makes me feel safer than someone applying this way of thinking.

I also read this interesting opinion piece: https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/10/14/adults-hate-affirmative-consent-laws-the-college-students-i-meet-love-them/
It is my opinion/observation as well.

(PLEASE NOTE: I'm a liberal feminazi hippy rape victim- I intentionally call that an "opinion" piece- because I don't think it is a scientific article- just interesting food for thought and some observations I've shared as well)




CarpeComa -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/19/2015 10:06:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't know. I happen to think that 'enthusiastic, affirmative consent' is the best shot that we've got at this thing.


It is one of those 'it sounds good, but falls apart under examination' ideas. When viewed in the greater context of what is going on, it is awful.

Problem 1:

What is the threshold? 'No' is an easy threshold to understand. Enthusiastic? Not so much. How enthusiastic is enthusiastic enough? Do you really want to be held to determining whether or not the other person is appropriately enthusiastic? Do you want to be 100% liable for misreading the situation? Isn't the potential to misread the situation a major rationale behind safe words? If we both agree to trade in a 'scratch my itch, and I'll scratch yours' sort of way, have we just violated each other since we might not be enthusiastic about the part we are each giving? What if no one says anything prior to the act? Have we then violated each other? Now how complicated does this get when it is you, me, and Dupree?

problem 2:

If consent can be withdrawn at anytime and you can't count on a 'no' from the other person, how do you know when to stop? Remember that the rules are that proceeding one instant past the withdrawal of consent is a crime. Furthermore, what keeps the other person from saying later "I was just saying yes, but I didn't really mean it" or "I was just saying yes/acting enthused because I was afraid of what would happen if I didn't"? You might notice that the latter is merely a slight rephrasing of the 'I was afraid to say no' rationale.

So it doesn't address the original problem with no means no (I was too afraid to say no) and it adds a new one. An affirmative consent standard is inherently unworkable in a just manner as a person's consent cannot be objectively ascertained. Not a move for the better in my book. That is without considering the contextual issues.

Context issue #1:

We are likely in the beginning stages of a moral panic around rape. As moral panics thrive on ambiguity, the best move to take to defuse such a panic is to establish and reinforce clear explicit guidelines in order to minimize the number of people that will get swept up in the panic. 'No means no' is clear and explicit. 'Enthusiastic, affirmative consent' is not clear nor explicit as 'enthusiasm' is not an objective standard and 'affirmation' is only good for the instant that the affirmation is being expressed (because that affirmation can be voided at any other instant by silently withdrawing consent). It is likely not a coincidence that the people who stand to benefit from a moral panic also are the strongest proponents of affirmative consent.

Context issue #2:

Victim culture. We have been steadily moving towards a culture that increasingly rewards and encourages people to be victims. Victims get to call on the muscle of the state and their communities to right whatever they feel was wrong. Victims get celebrated as 'brave', 'survivor', and 'noble' along with being granted the moral authority that comes with those attributions. Affirmative consent will help feed victim culture by making it easier for people to claim they were victims, due to the aforementioned issues with the standard.

Context issue #3:

The infantilization of women. This is where women are routinely held to a lower standard because vagina. This flies in the face of the claim of equality and will eventually undo a lot of what feminism has done to date if it isn't resisted. The general dynamic for sex (for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time) is male initiation and female acceptance/rejection. As a man's consent to sexual activity is generally assumed even without his initiation (not saying this is how it should be, just that it is), this new standard is going to be almost exclusively enforced against men seeking the consent of women. Taking this into account, the implicit conceit of affirmative consent is that women are too weak/timid/shy/whatever to be considered responsible enough to say no. You generally wouldn't think a man would have an issue saying no, would you? So if men should be responsible but women should not, that is holding women to a lower standard.



shiftyw -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/20/2015 12:02:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa



Context issue #2:

Victim culture. We have been steadily moving towards a culture that increasingly rewards and encourages people to be victims. Victims get to call on the muscle of the state and their communities to right whatever they feel was wrong. Victims get celebrated as 'brave', 'survivor', and 'noble' along with being granted the moral authority that comes with those attributions. Affirmative consent will help feed victim culture by making it easier for people to claim they were victims, due to the aforementioned issues with the standard.



Trigger Warning...

OH yes. let me list the ways my rape has been a rewarding experience for me:

1) Ostracized by several friends immediately upon telling them
2) Dumped, multiple times, because no one needs "a project"
3) ENORMOUS medical bills. First, the testing I went through after. Then the therapy I still undergo- ON MY DIME. Then the medication I have to take in order to not be a danger to myself.
4) I'm a goddamn danger to myself. Do you know what its like to not trust your own instinct? To have a best friend IGNORE your no's? The trust you lose in yourself and everyone else? Its a depressing bleak reality.
5) Insomnia
6) Panic Attacks
7) Certain facets of this community totally reject me. I'm not a "real sub" if I don't do CNC.
8) I've never told my family for fear of rejection from them.
9) The blame, shame, and absolutely bullshit society assumes about you.
10) slut shaming. so much of it. I regularly have heard "well thats what you get for being so easy"
11) A PTSD diagnosis that will likely follow me around forever
12) Disassociation is just a blast.
13) Being told that I'm lying because I'm "too fat to be raped"
14) Being told all the time about how if I was really raped I'd have reported it
15) Being told how many "false accusations" there are in this country and how many lives it ruins, and then being told I should have reported it as if the first statistics and their effects don't matter.
16) Being told "well if I were raped I would have fought them off!"
17) Having the counselor from the college basically just stop seeing you as a way of not having to actually deal with you and the consequences it might bring to the school (at the time already had a huge security scandal anyways)
18) The absolute devastating truth that someone who I considered one of my best friends decided to throw that friendship in the trash just to act out some power hungry bullshit act of aggression on me.
19) Him stalking and threatening me because he lived in the same dorm and attended the same classes as me was really an experience I just...blossomed from
20) I loved having no choice over who or when I lost my virginity too.
21) I also loved being told I'm a murderer for going into planned parenthood the next day to get tested, to see if I had HIV. It was a real highlight of my rape experience.

Its been a cake walk. You're totally right. So many benefits to being a victim. It has really been an experience I've grown from. Its taught me how to love and congratulate myself on living through freshmen year.

I'm sure there are false accusations.

I think the "benefits" you see are really not there. I assure you, rather than beam with pride at being a "survivor"- I mostly just flinch every time someone says that word. I don't identify as a victim. For fear of people like you. I didn't report my rape because of people like you. I don't see myself as a survivor who should be given accolades. I'm just another statistic in a game this country is playing to see who can be king of the hill.

I promise- its anything but glamorous. It is dehumanizing from beginning to end. You're always just a number, often to prove a point for one side or the other. Just a reason for any doubters of the system to resent you, mistrust you, and fling mud in your face. I've listened to a lot of "well I would have.." and "but you could have.." but its all just crap.

I've had my share of "I'm sorry that happened to you" but its far from a warm fuzzy feeling I get from their pity and sympathy. Its actually rather a pathetic feeling.

I get to live with the questions "how else could I have protected myself?", "why didn't I see it coming?", "why didn't I go to the cops? How didn't I have the courage to report him? How does anyone else have the courage to report their rapists?", and "How will anyone love me now? How do I love myself now?"

Have you ever had the power to ruin someone's life? He ruined mine, I could have ruined his. He "deserves" it. I guess.
Its a call I couldn't make at the time. I waver on my decision to not go to the police all the time. I feel endlessly guilty about not going to them. And endlessly like at that time, I was totally not in any position to ruin his life.

I really can't remember the last time someone, including my current man, and current therapist, made me feel ok about it. I don't even have feelings about it anymore. No matter what I feel someone is always there to tell me its wrong.

Either "I'm not a victim! I'm a survivor!" or "I'm seeking attention and sympathy! Love me cause this bad thing happened to me!"

Neither of those things I feel about or towards my rape. I feel empty, depressed, and tired of words and feelings being assigned to me.

Being a survivor has -for me- actually meant that I mostly never feel its ok to cry about. Because I either don't see myself as enough of a survivor or I'd be asking for attention.


___________________________________

[8|]

and with that, I'll take my cue to leave this thread, enthusiastically, and affirmatively- I AM FLOUNCING!



LadyPact -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/20/2015 4:29:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa
It is one of those 'it sounds good, but falls apart under examination' ideas. When viewed in the greater context of what is going on, it is awful.

Problem 1:

What is the threshold? 'No' is an easy threshold to understand. Enthusiastic? Not so much. How enthusiastic is enthusiastic enough? Do you really want to be held to determining whether or not the other person is appropriately enthusiastic? Do you want to be 100% liable for misreading the situation? Isn't the potential to misread the situation a major rationale behind safe words? If we both agree to trade in a 'scratch my itch, and I'll scratch yours' sort of way, have we just violated each other since we might not be enthusiastic about the part we are each giving? What if no one says anything prior to the act? Have we then violated each other? Now how complicated does this get when it is you, me, and Dupree?

In fairness, I had a quick look at your profile so I could get a better grasp on how you identify. Just easier for me with an idea about your gender and role.

I think we're going to be on different sides of this because I don't even get close to anything that folks would label CNC without a dynamic being present. You seem to be clear in your profile that potential partners for you have to be aware of the you won't negotiate thing. Something I tend to consider being an area the other person in question is going to have to make a decision about before getting involved with you. I'm not saying you can't structure your relationships any way you want to if the other person wants that but it really is something that should come up in conversation *before* they agree in going forward.


quote:

problem 2:

If consent can be withdrawn at anytime and you can't count on a 'no' from the other person, how do you know when to stop? Remember that the rules are that proceeding one instant past the withdrawal of consent is a crime. Furthermore, what keeps the other person from saying later "I was just saying yes, but I didn't really mean it" or "I was just saying yes/acting enthused because I was afraid of what would happen if I didn't"? You might notice that the latter is merely a slight rephrasing of the 'I was afraid to say no' rationale.

This entire area is a know you're partner issue. As a D/top type, you are aware that there are risks associated with just about everything that you engage in that is associated with BDSM. The above is one of your risks, whether you believe it *should* be a risk or not.

In all your forms of BDSM engagement, part of it is reducing your risk to maximize your (and your partner's) benefit. I noticed you have an interest in whips. It would be kind of silly of you to run out and buy a bright, shinny new single-tail and decide you were going to use it on somebody without knowing whether or not you could hit the broad side of a barn with any accuracy. Same thing goes for the sharps (needles) that you are interested in. Probably a good idea to know what reduces risk regarding blood born pathogens, infection, and all of the rest that goes with it.

Same thing with sex. Just a different angle. If you don't and you want to run that risk, that's up to you. It's a matter of how you want to reduce or negate that legal risk.

So it doesn't address the original problem with no means no (I was too afraid to say no) and it adds a new one. An affirmative consent standard is inherently unworkable in a just manner as a person's consent cannot be objectively ascertained. Not a move for the better in my book. That is without considering the contextual issues.

quote:

Context issue #1:

We are likely in the beginning stages of a moral panic around rape. As moral panics thrive on ambiguity, the best move to take to defuse such a panic is to establish and reinforce clear explicit guidelines in order to minimize the number of people that will get swept up in the panic. 'No means no' is clear and explicit. 'Enthusiastic, affirmative consent' is not clear nor explicit as 'enthusiasm' is not an objective standard and 'affirmation' is only good for the instant that the affirmation is being expressed (because that affirmation can be voided at any other instant by silently withdrawing consent). It is likely not a coincidence that the people who stand to benefit from a moral panic also are the strongest proponents of affirmative consent.

We'll have to disagree on the term panic. I do think we know more about the psychological damage that sexual assault can cause. That, to me, seems like an improvement. As the top, you have to assess and mitigate that risk. Some people will love the heck out of you because they want to fulfill their desires to be taken. Others, not so much.

quote:

Context issue #2:

Victim culture. We have been steadily moving towards a culture that increasingly rewards and encourages people to be victims. Victims get to call on the muscle of the state and their communities to right whatever they feel was wrong. Victims get celebrated as 'brave', 'survivor', and 'noble' along with being granted the moral authority that comes with those attributions. Affirmative consent will help feed victim culture by making it easier for people to claim they were victims, due to the aforementioned issues with the standard.

Here's where I think you might want to back the truck up. If you're connecting this in any way, I'm not in agreement that there's really a big reward system going on. I don't exactly think that's a 'fun' process for anyone.

The 'community' angle is just as bad if you are talking about the kink community in relation to this. We're actually kind of awful about it. Very few event organizers have the courage to actually ban perpetrators. Before we moved to where we lived now (don't believe the location on my profile - it's old) there was a really bad example of this at one of the clubs that used to be in business here. The dude was the head DM and managed to sexually assault three people before anybody wanted to kick him because he was such a nice guy. (Italics for sarcasm.)

quote:

Context issue #3:

The infantilization of women. This is where women are routinely held to a lower standard because vagina. This flies in the face of the claim of equality and will eventually undo a lot of what feminism has done to date if it isn't resisted. The general dynamic for sex (for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time) is male initiation and female acceptance/rejection. As a man's consent to sexual activity is generally assumed even without his initiation (not saying this is how it should be, just that it is), this new standard is going to be almost exclusively enforced against men seeking the consent of women. Taking this into account, the implicit conceit of affirmative consent is that women are too weak/timid/shy/whatever to be considered responsible enough to say no. You generally wouldn't think a man would have an issue saying no, would you? So if men should be responsible but women should not, that is holding women to a lower standard.

I'm a female D/top type and from a personal angle, I don't buy this at all. If I initiate sex, I am just as responsible as anybody else. I have to do my homework just like you do and I have to assess my risk just like you do. Do I have better odds? Maybe, but I base that on some various factors.

I am going to say that I think it's harder for male victims to come forward because of the extra layer of crap. (In other words, anything associated with the 'you're bigger and stronger, how you could let a woman violate you' thing.) I don't think that stigma helps anybody. I actually think it makes things worse.

I will give you that I'm not entirely sure that my attitude is the majority. I've actually seen some women get away with more crap based on pretty much the fact that they are female. Had they been male, people wouldn't have been so friendly about rubbing elbows with them when the truth came out. One was even a presenter at a major con last year and they kept her on the schedule even after she publicly admitted to having *several* folks that she had assaulted. Guess what she was teaching on? Negotiation and consent.





NookieNotes -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/20/2015 5:10:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CarpeComa
What is the threshold? 'No' is an easy threshold to understand. Enthusiastic? Not so much. How enthusiastic is enthusiastic enough?


Enthusiastic enough that I don't think that there is a chance I could be doing anything wrong.

quote:

Do you really want to be held to determining whether or not the other person is appropriately enthusiastic?


LOGICAL FALLACY: Argument from Consequences

Yes, I do.

quote:

Do you want to be 100% liable for misreading the situation?


Yes, I do.

quote:

Isn't the potential to misread the situation a major rationale behind safe words?


The potential to misread a sexual situation? No. It's about an alternate play situation. Things like pain, where sometimes you cannot tell the difference between enthusiastic processing of pain and a lack of desire. Where "fuck," and "no," are used to handle the pain, but not to stop it.

quote:

What if no one says anything prior to the act? Have we then violated each other?


LOGICAL FALLACY: Slippery Slope

Unless there was enthusiastic consent, you have violated each other whether you spoke before any sexual act or not.

quote:

Now how complicated does this get when it is you, me, and Dupree?


No more complex. Have you ever had a threesome? A threesome is not inherently more or less complex in my experience than a twosome.

It's simply a matter of only doing what is enthusiastically embraced.

quote:

If consent can be withdrawn at anytime and you can't count on a 'no' from the other person, how do you know when to stop? Remember that the rules are that proceeding one instant past the withdrawal of consent is a crime. Furthermore, what keeps the other person from saying later "I was just saying yes, but I didn't really mean it" or "I was just saying yes/acting enthused because I was afraid of what would happen if I didn't"? You might notice that the latter is merely a slight rephrasing of the 'I was afraid to say no' rationale.


LOGICAL FALLACY: Appeal to Fear

Well, that is on each individual to decide whether the other is convincing enough.

I often ask myself, "Does s/he want this from me? How do I know?"

I ask them, "I'm thinking of running my finger down your arm, just so. May I touch?" If they say yes, I do it, and tell them how much I enjoyed it. I allow them the room to invite more or not.

Sometimes, I admit, this takes me months to properly seduce someone, but it's worth the effort for me. I have been told over and over that I make people feel 100% safe with me, in every way.

quote:

We are likely in the beginning stages of a moral panic around rape. As moral panics thrive on ambiguity, the best move to take to defuse such a panic is to establish and reinforce clear explicit guidelines in order to minimize the number of people that will get swept up in the panic. 'No means no' is clear and explicit. 'Enthusiastic, affirmative consent' is not clear nor explicit as 'enthusiasm' is not an objective standard and 'affirmation' is only good for the instant that the affirmation is being expressed (because that affirmation can be voided at any other instant by silently withdrawing consent). It is likely not a coincidence that the people who stand to benefit from a moral panic also are the strongest proponents of affirmative consent.


It is likely not a coincidence that the people who worry most about affirmative consent also are the strongest proponents of "what if you don't know...". Then GET TO KNOW, motherfucker! Get to them as people, rather than hooking up with an inebriated girl or a stranger, or a friend who is exhausted, or whatever. Take your time.

Or, as with STIs, take you risks.

KNOW that she may be lying (about her enthusiasm status or his STI status). Trust no one until you KNOW them. Period. Seems simple enough. Quit going for the easy lay.

quote:

Victim culture. We have been steadily moving towards a culture that increasingly rewards and encourages people to be victims. Victims get to call on the muscle of the state and their communities to right whatever they feel was wrong. Victims get celebrated as 'brave', 'survivor', and 'noble' along with being granted the moral authority that comes with those attributions. Affirmative consent will help feed victim culture by making it easier for people to claim they were victims, due to the aforementioned issues with the standard.


Bullshit.

Because it is up to BOTH parties to enthusiastically consent and ALWAYS be responsible.

As someone who has endured attempted rape twice, many consent violations, and has broken my own rules of consent, I am VERY STRONGLY for taking responsibility for who I sleep with, and NEVER, EVER, EVER sleeping with someone who is not 100% enthusiastic about being with me in every single way.

Period.

I do not want it elsewise.

Which, it seems, is the problem, right? Because you don't want to go through that effort, or make others responsible for doing so. Funny, we put less effort into getting sex sometimes than into grabbing fast food for dinner.

quote:

The infantilization of women. This is where women are routinely held to a lower standard because vagina. This flies in the face of the claim of equality and will eventually undo a lot of what feminism has done to date if it isn't resisted. The general dynamic for sex (for the vast majority of people the vast majority of the time) is male initiation and female acceptance/rejection. As a man's consent to sexual activity is generally assumed even without his initiation (not saying this is how it should be, just that it is), this new standard is going to be almost exclusively enforced against men seeking the consent of women. Taking this into account, the implicit conceit of affirmative consent is that women are too weak/timid/shy/whatever to be considered responsible enough to say no. You generally wouldn't think a man would have an issue saying no, would you? So if men should be responsible but women should not, that is holding women to a lower standard.


Huh. So, you're saying that although we (in this case) hold men and women to the same standards, because men might use them (and therefore misuse them) more often, that infantilizes women?

I don't get it.

Nope. Not at all.



Awareness -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/20/2015 12:09:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't know. I happen to think that 'enthusiastic, affirmative consent' is the best shot that we've got at this thing.
Yeah. Provided you video record not only the consent but the entire sexual experience - since retroactive withdrawal of consent is not only possible but in certain feminist circles actively justified. Basically if a woman LATER decides she wished she hadn't had a sexual encounter - regardless of her enthusiasm at the time - the dude is retroactively declared a rapist.

To say some of the nonsense around "campus rape" is absolutely insane doesn't even scratch the surface.



Missokyst -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/20/2015 1:15:20 PM)

How perverted.
[;)]
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Yeah. Provided you video record not only the consent but the entire sexual experience -




NookieNotes -> RE: Sex Ed Lesson: ‘Yes Means Yes,’ but It’s Tricky (10/21/2015 6:34:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I don't know. I happen to think that 'enthusiastic, affirmative consent' is the best shot that we've got at this thing.
Yeah. Provided you video record not only the consent but the entire sexual experience - since retroactive withdrawal of consent is not only possible but in certain feminist circles actively justified. Basically if a woman LATER decides she wished she hadn't had a sexual encounter - regardless of her enthusiasm at the time - the dude is retroactively declared a rapist.

To say some of the nonsense around "campus rape" is absolutely insane doesn't even scratch the surface.



LOGICAL FALLACY: Genetic

Just because the same people who may take things too far also think this is a good idea does not automatically make it a bad one.

They might also enjoy sliced bread, bicycle rides and pretty sunsets... or *gasp* even like something you like or support legislation you support.

To be clear, this is more about changing campus culture than setting laws. I think an enthusiastic consent culture is a good one. I don't, however, think college is early enough to begin it. By then, social habits are already deeply ingrained.



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