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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 8:23:03 AM   
subjected2006


Posts: 248
Joined: 1/20/2006
Status: offline 		which two religions are you talking about?
and is the answer to outlaw all religions?
how about we just outlaw the good ones?
ok..then we need to have a government that is unbiased and willing to concentrate on allowing people to believe anythiing thay choose to believe as long as they dont break a set group of laws.
wait..thats right we got that.
so where are we going wrong?
this is a serious question..i would really be interested in  what you think.

< Message edited by subjected2006 -- 7/18/2006 8:28:54 AM >

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 9:00:36 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

If it weren't for religons, we wouldn't have wars.




How do you explain WWI, WWII, Korea, Viet Nam, the War of 1812, the Civil War ?

I am not even sure which two religions the OP is referring to.
Judiasm and Islam? Christianity and Islam ? In either of these cases, *Islam* is the common denomonator, and is it really Islam or is it radical fringes? Or is it rivaling factions of Islam? Or is it the long standing Islamic tribal infighting?

                   mbmbn

Ok... here is a Reader’s Digest version:

Paganism was confronted by the “one god fits all” school. (Ra in Egypt)

Then we have Judaism, they didn’t care for the idea of Jesus being the Messiah so they slaughtered him

Then the Pagans and Christians had at it 

Then the Christians got the upper hand and voila...the Crusades.  Christianity just had to shove itself down everyone else's throat to the east of them.

Then we have the immigration of the Puritans to the Americas.. and the European Christians trying to convert every “Indian” they saw or kill them in the attempt.

WWII?  Hitler decided to create a whole new world order (where have we heard that lately?)  He created a whole occult based Arian religion in which everyone had to adhere to be a “loyal” German.  He also created a common enemy, the Jews, to bind everyone together.

Much like the Christian Right is doing here now.  When government officials are placed in posts or elected because of their religious beliefs in hopes that all faith-based issues get passed, we have a serious problem. 

And what really torks me.. is that we are all reading and interpreting the same Holy Word???!!!

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 7/18/2006 9:55:37 AM >

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 9:50:41 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Just how ironic is it that our worlds two largest religions that promote peace are constantly at war with each other?


There are no peaceful religions, just peaceful people.  Vice versa is true as well.

Regardless of what a religion preaches, it is the people who follow it that make it what it's known for. 

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 9:55:44 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Religions need time to mature... or get decadent, depending on one's point of view. 


I have nothing to add to this ... I just wanted to see it in print one more time.  

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 9:57:05 AM   
Arpig


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quote:

Maybe I was too vague in my earlier post. My use of the word core is that we all pretty much accept the Bible, as the handbook of our given religion. As Judiam does with the Torah. And in Christianity that Jesus is viewed as the savior. Yes, each sect/denomination may interpret/practice
differently. But at the end of the day there is no arguement on the sacredness of the Bible/Torah.  The disagreements come with interpretation/practice.
In contrast, Islam has  a big difference.
Muhammad is the prophet of that religion and within the different sects/tribes etc there is no disagreement. But a big difference is  in the succesion, which "fragments" things, IMO. Shi'ite Muslims reject the first three successors of Muhmmad and have taken the fourth succesor, Ali, Mohmmads son in law as the rightful successor. While Sunnis accept the first three, leaving Ali the fourth successor. Seems to me that if you have one prophet claiming it's successor x 3 and  some agree with the original Prophet and others reject and pick the fourth, there is a much bigger fragmentation than how a Catholic or Baptist practices their religion. Maybe it's just me.
I still maintain the issue of the differing tribes adds to the  mix, but that is my opinion. You have yours.
If you see me, or my words as disingenuous, so be it. The topic of Islam and the problems with in Islam itself is not something I created and has been studied for many years.
Part of the Middle East Peace process has been trying to unite the Arab/Muslim/Islamic world. The fact that this has been a tedious and exhausting project at best, proves to me that some of the problems lie within the Islamic world itself.

                     mbmbn


No mbmbn, I don't think you were vague, I think you were either misinformed or misleading.
The big difference is in the succession???
The christian world had the exact same problem immediatly upon Jesus' removal from the scene.
Surely you remember St. Peter, the 1st Pope, the one not recognised as the head of the church by Christians in the Eastern part of the Roman Empire?
The only things that Christians agree on is that Jesus lived, died, and lived again...everything else is disputed and debated, there are innumerable versions of the bible, far more than there are versions of the qu'ran.
Christianity is most definately not one religion, and Christians are by far the most tribal of religions....do a bit of reading on the Orthodox churches to get an idea as to what I mean.

As a quick example, what is the difference between a Serb and a Croat?

Religion; a Serb is an Orthodox Croat, a Croat is a Catholic Serb....and yet despite the fact that they speak the same language and are culturally homogenous, they insist on the fiction that they are completely seperate peoples, based purely on the particular sect they belong to.

I find your entire premise to be an example of the typical American assumption that the laissez-faire attitude amongst christians in the US vis-a-vis ecumenical differences, is prelevant beyond the borders of Canada & the U.D., it isn't, the rest of the world takes its christianity deadly serious, and have and will happily kill people over a minor difference in spelling (read up on the whole issue with monophysites...very illuminating).

I find it very disturbing when people who apparently have no idea what they are talking about try to play at comparative religions.
Just to set the matter straight.

Judaism.
A primitive desert cult dedicated to the worship of a minor local storm deity, heavily influenced by exposure to Egyptian (the afterlife), Babylonian (most of the early bible stories...the flood, Cain & Able, etc.) and Pheonicean/Caananite (the concept of a messiah/saviour) mythology.

Christianity.
A sect of Judaism heavily influenced by hellenistic philosophy, that merged with manicheanism (itself an off-shoot of Zoroastrianism), and later was heavily influenced by Roman philosphy, particularly in the sphere of morals and ethics.

Islam.
A primitive desert cult dedicated to the worship of a minor local storm deity, heavily influenced by exposure to the local jewish community in Medina.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 11:07:41 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Northern Europe doesn't take Christianity as serious a the USA and Canada. England is probably the most secular country in the western world. The amount of English per capita that go to church is miniscual compared to the US and Canada. Christianity is barely mentioned in England's cultural life. There are pockets such as Scotland and N Ireland where religion is important but there you have Presbyterians and Catholics and religion is a political badge of national loyalty rather than religion, rather like the Serbo-Croats. The fortunate thing for England was that most of its religious intolerant emigrated to N America. I contend they didn't go to find religious freedom but went because they couldn't tolerate living amongst people that didn't have their views.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 11:24:52 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Maybe I was too vague in my earlier post. My use of the word core is that we all pretty much accept the Bible, as the handbook of our given religion. As Judiam does with the Torah. And in Christianity that Jesus is viewed as the savior. Yes, each sect/denomination may interpret/practice
differently. But at the end of the day there is no arguement on the sacredness of the Bible/Torah.  The disagreements come with interpretation/practice.
In contrast, Islam has  a big difference.
Muhammad is the prophet of that religion and within the different sects/tribes etc there is no disagreement. But a big difference is  in the succesion, which "fragments" things, IMO. Shi'ite Muslims reject the first three successors of Muhmmad and have taken the fourth succesor, Ali, Mohmmads son in law as the rightful successor. While Sunnis accept the first three, leaving Ali the fourth successor. Seems to me that if you have one prophet claiming it's successor x 3 and  some agree with the original Prophet and others reject and pick the fourth, there is a much bigger fragmentation than how a Catholic or Baptist practices their religion. Maybe it's just me.
I still maintain the issue of the differing tribes adds to the  mix, but that is my opinion. You have yours.
If you see me, or my words as disingenuous, so be it. The topic of Islam and the problems with in Islam itself is not something I created and has been studied for many years.
Part of the Middle East Peace process has been trying to unite the Arab/Muslim/Islamic world. The fact that this has been a tedious and exhausting project at best, proves to me that some of the problems lie within the Islamic world itself.

                    mbmbn



Just to address the first part, I would have to ask 'Which Bible'? The ones written/edited by politicians, like the Catholic version or King James'? Or the more original translations?

And arguing over intepretations?  That is  heavily invested in other religions as well...read up on the supposedly harmonious and non-credal, non-dogmatic Quakers, and their schisms of Hicksite, Beanite, modern liberal, etc.

Not the mention the centuries of debate over what is meant in Torah.

Yes, there is debate within Islam over what is meant by parts of the Quran...and the wholesale ignoring of the parts calling for peaceful and tolerant behavior...but that sounds like the other religions too.

I'm afraid I'm not seeing the same distinction  that you are....

All religions write words on paper, and then people go out and argue and even kill over them

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/18/2006 11:26:03 AM >

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 1:56:42 PM   
Lashra


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Status: offline 		These religions are about controlling the populace and money. Supposedly their god is a god of love and yet he hates so many. Why create that which you are going to hate? It makes no sense to me whatsover and what makes even less sense is people's inability to see pass the smoke and mirrors.
More words are shoved into god's mouth then anyone's on the planet and innocent people die for it.

~Lashra the happy pagan

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 2:21:23 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Oh yeah.... like no one ever got killed over Cthulu....

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 5:37:03 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Northern Europe doesn't take Christianity as serious a the USA and Canada. England is probably the most secular country in the western world. The amount of English per capita that go to church is miniscual compared to the US and Canada. Christianity is barely mentioned in England's cultural life.


So what was the big freakin deal with Charles and Carmilla getting married by the Church of England?

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 5:45:31 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Fangs, didn't Clinton "make peace" over there a few years ago like he "made peace" in N. Ireland?


Oh yeah, like having an Israili PM and Arafat shake hands is making peace. Clinton was buying them off saying "Hey guys, shake hands, make me look good, and there will be some money and extra trading for you."

Let's not forget Clintons envolvment in Bosnia and Serievo. Air strikes, troops, and even a bombing of a Chinese embasy.

< Message edited by FangsNfeet -- 7/18/2006 5:46:09 PM >

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 7:54:51 PM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
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Status: offline 		People spend their entire lives vesting themselves in something that most of them have no real clue as to what it is or where it came from.
 
By way of analogy...
 
When I look at humanity, I don't see the trees...I see a forest.  When I look at myself, I see a tree out in the middle of a field...watching the forest that can't see itself as a forest...fighting with itself...over who's idea of what a tree is, is the truth.
 
anthrosub

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 8:34:52 PM   
NeedToUseYou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

Just how ironic is it that our worlds two largest religions that promote peace are constantly at war with each other?


That isn't Ironic. What would be Ironic, is after thousands of years of human history, people reject the notion that war is part of human nature. It doesn't sit well from a peace, love, and happiness angle. But I'm unaware of any time period when war wasn't occuring either directly as in bullets,arrows, etc.... or indirectly as in causing internal strife, trade inequality, etc...  Religion has nothing to do with it, or very little. An excuse to justify an ends. Wars are justified for many reasons religion being one of many. The ends being power, and or survival.



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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 9:32:48 PM   
CrappyDom


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Status: offline 		What I find amusing is that it is the people defending one faith over another that are interested in blame and the people who reject religion who are interested in reconciliation.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/18/2006 9:36:14 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

What I find amusing is that it is the people defending one faith over another that are interested in blame and the people who reject religion who are interested in reconciliation.


I was actually hoping that people would be interested in that book I posted, it shows how religion can make peace (all the world's major religions have peacemakers and war mongerers). No one bit at the book, which is too bad, it makes some very cogent and important points... as someone that is spiritual even though I am not religious, I gained a great deal of insight from reading it.

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/19/2006 12:26:57 AM   
fullofgrace


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Status: offline 		i was under the impression buddhism probably promotes peace more than any other religion - because there is no excuse for war in it, whereas the holy books of christianity, judaism, and islam do have justifications for war. then again, buddhism still has its own religious conflicts, albeit nowhere near to the degree historically that christianity, judaism, and islam do.

i don't and will probably never understand religious justification for war, no matter how much i study religion (which is an awful lot). i can't really understand religious justification for intolerance or hatred, either, which sort of follows from that ;)

as an aside, those of you who are interested in islam and how the religion justifies war and approaches war might want to check out "islam and war" by john kelsay. it's not a bad book :)


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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/19/2006 12:41:14 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Northern Europe doesn't take Christianity as serious a the USA and Canada. England is probably the most secular country in the western world. The amount of English per capita that go to church is miniscual compared to the US and Canada. Christianity is barely mentioned in England's cultural life.


So what was the big freakin deal with Charles and Carmilla getting married by the Church of England?


It is a little in house spat between the establishment. 99% of the population couldn't give a toss about what they do.

The C of E which has about 20 million members in England and Wales has less church goers than the Catholic Church in England, which has approx. 2.5 million members and declining. Claimed members not church goers. That leaves approx. 17 million claiming no religious affiliation. The other 3 million are other religions. 5 million declined to answer the government census question. These figures are aproximates.

According to the survey 1.8 million Anglicans attend church while 2 million Catholics attend church.

In a survey carried out by the New Scientist Magazine, 55% of British people didn't belive in a god or a higher being.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/19/2006 12:43:10 AM >

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/19/2006 6:48:37 AM   
NakedOnMyChain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Oh yeah.... like no one ever got killed over Cthulu....


Choose the lesser of the evils!  Vote Cthulhu!

I will say that everytime I see someone bring it up.  You have all been forewarned. 

<whisper>  If you say it, she will come.  <whisper>

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"I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say, and I will be your slave."
~The Labyrinth

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/19/2006 7:04:21 AM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fullofgrace

i was under the impression buddhism probably promotes peace more than any other religion - because there is no excuse for war in it, whereas the holy books of christianity, judaism, and islam do have justifications for war. then again, buddhism still has its own religious conflicts, albeit nowhere near to the degree historically that christianity, judaism, and islam do.



There is the conflict in Sri Lanka which the participants are Buddhists. It is somewhat an ethnic conflict in which religion has been used as a partial justification for fighting.

_____________________________

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RE: The Religions of Peace - 7/19/2006 7:58:55 AM   
KennelDeSade2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Oh yeah.... like no one ever got killed over Cthulu....


Choose the lesser of the evils!  Vote Cthulhu!

I will say that everytime I see someone bring it up.  You have all been forewarned. 

<whisper>  If you say it, she will come.  <whisper>


I think that the bumper sticker reads;

Vote Cthulhu.
Why settle for the lesser evil?

Or my own fav.
Republicans for Voldemort


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