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Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 9:24:21 PM   
Mercnbeth


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I appreciate that many, if not most, people arrive at CM early during their discovery of alternative “lifestyle” in general and specific BDSM practices. The availability of CM as a resource is invaluable. As long as you are conscious that many people representing themselves as “true” dominants and submissives are in actuality only “true” to their personal goal of finding someone to fuck emotionally, economically, mentally, and literally; you can get some good information. However, there is an inherent problem with this type of forum. Every question, and therefore every answer, is posted in a vacuum.

Perusing some recent threads on reoccurring themes I tried to remove myself from my perspective and view the question and the answer from the viewpoint of a novice. Doing so, I realized it’s a good thing that some people’s desire for this lifestyle is so strong because if anything is more confusing than the questions posed it’s the answers. It’s not a matter of the redundancy of subjects covered; it’s a matter of 180 degree opposing viewpoints both being “correct” with good supporting arguments.

I HATE when that happens! I’m adamant that there is a “right” answer; there is a “right” way. I believe that arbitrary or conflicting “right answers” are the result of not having enough information. Why can questions concerning a lifestyle relationship generate right answers in contradiction? Questions regarding trust and honor shouldn’t be contingent on perspective. Limits, the inclusion or exclusion of love or sex can’t and shouldn’t be argued when examples given come from personal experience. How is it that activities and protocol such as the need for written rules, or specificity within those rules such as third person speech attacked, generating the need for counter-attack?

Theoretically perspective shouldn’t matter if ultimately your goal is the same. Unless you are a one handed web surfer, you’re goal is to be in the company of another while enjoying some form or fashion of BDSM experience. If that goal is 24/7 or 2/365 it still falls under the definition of the word “relationship”.

I see the issue to be one similar to the old poem by John Saxe concerning six blind men describing an elephant. Having never seen one, the only thing they have is first hand perspective. The perspective is contingent upon the one part of the elephant they touch. They are all 100% correct and they are all 100% wrong. It seems to be the case on CM threads. Except in this case some people have actually seen the elephant, road on one, or maybe even owned one; becoming, of course, elephant experts. Instead of describing and addressing the point touched, their amplified response includes sage like wisdom such as; “Yes, a slave is distinct from a submissive in that their limits are defined by an owner. But of course they first need to be self aware. It goes without saying that they also should only relinquish responsibility to a person who has earned that degree of trust.” That may be 100% accurate regarding how beth and I define limits within our dynamic but it has the possibility of being 100% wrong regarding anyone else.

The reason why the elephant eventually dies may be directly attributed to the blind man perspective. Feed an elephant snake food because of its trunk and you’ll have an ex-elephant Elephants and relationships need appropriate care and feeding. Owning one before you’re ready won’t work. They don’t come with an owner’s manual, but you should write one for future reference when the novelty of having a new elephant evolves into the ‘fun’ of daily care and feeding. Once again be prepared for the scrutiny of other elephant owners. Your ‘fun’ can be defined by them as ‘work’. No challenge or point of ‘fact’ will change that perspective. Once you’ve bought into your elephant it’s better to be deaf and dumb to the criticism of the blind.

No matter how much background is supplied, questions about a relationship can only be answered in full context. As the questioner, appreciate you are only exposing a minuscule part of your elephant. As a commentator remember your elephant and mine only have the fact that we both own elephants in common. Attacking the question or response to only one part is wrong and usually leads to the wrong conclusion. You have to build your own version of the elephant. More important consider that even if you see and touch every inch of someone else’s elephant you are still not seeing the insides.


For those who may have attended US public school during the past 25 years this is the source document providing the inspiration of this post.

Blind Men and the Elephant (by John Godfrey Saxe)
 
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, “Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”
 
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”
 
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
“ ‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”
 
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”
 
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:

So oft in theologic wars,

The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 9:41:33 PM   
amayos


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I just want to know why the elephant is pink and in the kitchen.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 9:52:41 PM   
SusanofO


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Ha! Me too, amayos! Maybe it's that stuff you ate for dinner (or - drank for dinner - more to the point) he.....just teasing (really!)

I want my elephants to have their own wardrobes*,  and also some toys of their own, too! 
Elephants are special people too -
*please see my below post for expoundsion (is that a real word? Well, it is now, he...)

Seriously, very good point,  and nice post. Merc N- Beth. 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/17/2006 10:39:39 PM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 9:58:33 PM   
crouchingtigress


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I have always loved the elephant storry....it begs the universal question how can you know what you dont know?
 
I have found through posting to forums over the years, that like you, i wanted clearly defined answers, and Webster definitions dammit.
 
But soon i realized that it was a great blessing that there are so many differing perspectives...because if i sat back and watched...if i allowed myself to learn....they would teach me who i wanted to be and who i did not want to be in this lifestyle.
 
Some how and i dont know how this is, when you post a question, and then you read the whole thread, some things/people particularly hit you right in the heart...and then magic happens, your consciousness expands and your heart opens....

It seems to me that after a thread has run its course i am able to hear the exact thing i needed to hear...and i do seem to come to some clarity because of the extent of differing opinions...or at least that is how it works for me...(your posts often times are part of my clarity)
 
I have also noticed how mean people can be obscured by a computer screen...i have noticed how hurtful that is, i know that i am not innocent in lashing out, but i really try to bring every ounce of compassion i can to these boards because when you are new, how can you know what you dont know?

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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 9:58:40 PM   
Caretakr


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My elephant doesn't like to hear it's big.

And seeing as how it can squash me like a bug, I abet it's illusion.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 10:00:18 PM   
Vendaval


Posts: 10297
Joined: 1/15/2005
Status: offline
 
Hey, this could be the basis for a really cool getting-to-know-you-party!
 
All of the submissives being naked in bondage and all of the dominants being blindfolded. 
Of course a few "expert DM's"  would be needed to make sure none of the male subs
would be mistaken for a snake or the female subs for a pair of cushy pillows! 
 
    Vendaval
 
 


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I see the issue to be one similar to the old poem by John Saxe concerning six blind men describing an elephant. Having never seen one, the only thing they have is first hand perspective. The perspective is contingent upon the one part of the elephant they touch. They are all 100% correct and they are all 100% wrong. It seems to be the case on CM threads. Except in this case some people have actually seen the elephant, road on one, or maybe even owned one; becoming, of course, elephant experts.


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 10:10:02 PM   
SusanofO


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Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
amayos: (and whoever else is listening): Pink and in the kitchen - wow am I dense - I get it now. You like female Elephants because you are a Dominant hetero male elephant. I wasn't being snide, I was attempting to be funny (It's late and my comprehension skills wane sometimes then)

Well - yes, I think everyone has their own reasons for being here, as it should be.

Which ( to me) also means their Elephant's(s) wardrobe (unless they like only naked Elephants all the time, as some do) will be varied, as well as the toys they want to use on them (or have their Elephant use), and what it gets to eat, and even the religion or philosophy thier Elephant comes to learn.

Generations of Elephants, I've read, sometimes all can end up liking the same kind of things, decade after decade, due to clan behavior, and even when they go to die and mourn eachother at the Elephant graveyard, they are telling the young Elephants :"These are our ways - follow them and them only - do not trangress - or you will face The Big Elephant Stick (and we all know what that means...exposure to a new idea(s)is a thing that is sometimes thought of as dangerous to all Elephant(s) (gasp)! This has been known to cause discomfort in some Elephants and their clans (although medicine is out there, it can take weeks, sometimes months or years, to be effective) - and also cause clan and-or Elephant death...

and I am not saying to each his own isn't a good idea (nor do I think anyone else is saying that - the opposite in fact) - I am saying new ideas are the democratic and good thing - which isn't the same thingas saying everyone is going to adopt those ideas - and I know I see most everyone say this (those on this thread, in my opinion, which is as skewed as anyone's else's I am sure) -  that everyone's going to have their own (which us of course already obvious to many, I just like to chat) -

hope I am not being obtuse - I am thinking: Elephants all deserve their own *wardrobes  -**(experience levels and backgrounds they bring with them to their embarkation and-or practice of bdsm in their lives) and, for whatever reason they are here, as long as their owners recognize they may have come from a far off country not exactly like their own, they can stand a chance of growing old (or at least staying on speaking terms) in safety with eachother - and with other Elephants, even.

Doesn't that lil' story just make you wanna hug someone ?(or wretch, your choice). I love fables and tales and stories like The Blind Men and the Elephant, I do. I really do.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/17/2006 11:00:25 PM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Vendaval)
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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 10:31:14 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
Unfortunately most people's "solution" to this is to suggest that there is only One True Way, or that we're just trying to be PC in some attempt to make everyone feel happy and fuzzy.

I think having multiple/yet still perfectly workable answers is a great thing, and as a pragmatist myself, usually how I approach all situations in life.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 10:58:41 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
Wow. I think that's an idea, Vendeval...a really good idea. Really. That is why I love these kinds of threads - one can just let their imagination whirle and roam and run wild!

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/17/2006 11:13:31 PM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Vendaval)
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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 11:03:43 PM   
Driver1961


Posts: 459
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
He enters, dips His lid....
 
I HATE when that happens! Me n' You n' the others that know they have removed their blindfolds to see the elephant! (Me thinks HATE is a very applicable word here- who likes further discrimination when believing they are in a herd of 'like minded' that have previously suffered at the hands of judgment and discrimination?)

I’m adamant that there is a “right” answer; there is a “right” way. I believe that arbitrary or conflicting “right answers” are the result of not having enough information. Why can questions concerning a lifestyle relationship generate right answers in contradiction? Questions regarding trust and honor shouldn’t be contingent on perspective. Limits, the inclusion or exclusion of love or sex can’t and shouldn’t be argued when examples given come from personal experience. How is it that activities and protocol such as the need for written rules, or specificity within those rules such as third person speech attacked, generating the need for counter-attack? Simply having removed their blindfold, the previously 'blinded' fail to see the further information outside their new (self stunted) vision.  They become horses and inadvertantly self-impose 'blinkers'. (maybe cos they think of riding crops?Pony saddles? Chaps? Spurs? ....opps I have to type two handed)


Theoretically perspective shouldn’t matter if ultimately your goal is the same. Unless you are a one handed web surfer, you’re goal is to be in the company of another while enjoying some form or fashion of BDSM experience. If that goal is 24/7 or 2/365 it still falls under the definition of the word “relationship”.
(Having never seen a groin clearly and comfortably before is a wonderful and fixative thing!- two handed response....and some people never move past their newfound vision)
 
Your  word choice of 'Theoretically perspective shouldn't matter' is extremely relevant.  Collar Me, other sites, and real-time BDSM is THEORY that we practise to one's perspective.  Unfortunately the members of our herd have endured many droughts, are self reliant and will not be told where to drink but rather argue their place to drink. (self-blinked) 
 
Are you insinuating the 'colour' of the Elephant's skin is also indicative of appropriate C/M 'perspective' unless there are polls attached to the ends of  threads?   I'd like see a tie to the end of a thread- regardless of how long it is!
 
Thanks Merc n' Beth for an extremely appropriate post.
 
Warm regards
 
Driver1961. Sir to His loving WildChild.
 
PS. Thanks for posting the elephant poem.  It is amusing and was not part of my Australian Education.


 
 
 



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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 11:21:59 PM   
SusanofO


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Hey there amayos: *I get what you mean now (it's late and I am still awake and still thinking. Plus, thank God I have mild OCD, huh? Some things take a while to sink in) - you want to know why only female (pink) Elephants get to be in the kitchen (everyone knows the Kitchen is the coolest room in the house).

I agree, it isn't fair - it's not. I think male hetero (and homo, for that matter) blue Elephants should not only be allowed in the Kitchen, but should take over the whole damn house, plus the yard! Relegating them only to the basement, or toolshed or the yard outside, or to the Den with a tv remote isn't fair, I do think so. I'm with you, if it makes you feel any better. And I do think I understand what you mean. Of course, keep in mind, I am a female hetero submissive (which may have colored my viewpoint).

The purple Elephants can do whatever they want, as far as I am concerned, he. They don't like even living indoors from what I've read (and they are nudists, too. And they only eat breakfast cereal - ever, and only on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. And they only like warmer climates).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 7/17/2006 11:54:52 PM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)
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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/17/2006 11:50:11 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
crouchingtigress, your posts are always so lovely and loving, it is a real pleasure to read them.

LA I am glad to see you back. People were so concerned you'd left for good, they started a thread about it.

Driver1961: Wow I like it when people read threads like this and respond. I know it's late, but I thought it was a great thread to start. Interesting post to read.

Well, I better throw myself back in bed and see what happens...

- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to crouchingtigress)
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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/18/2006 1:15:10 AM   
meatcleaver


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People have different moral educations so answers are going to be different even if honestly given. Having been brought up in generally one of the most secular countries in the west where christian values are residual to the culture and not actively promoted, I'm going to have a completely different perspective of right and wrong than someone from a background where christianity is promoted. Debating skills are come from a secular education but our morals and motivations don't. This is why I disagree with you that there has to be only one right answer. There are no right answers, just honest opinions and dishonest ones, which can seem more honest depending on your perspective. The same answer can be right for one person from a particular background but wrong for someone from a different background.

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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/18/2006 2:27:02 AM   
ExSteelAgain


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From: Georgia
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Mercnbeth, thanks for taking the effort to come up with a philosophical post. I think I basically follow your thought. I usually dispute those taking a ritualistic, one way, approach in the face of common sense. Most of us here think we are human above everything else... (I think LAM should comment on this thread since he has the icon of the elephants fucking.)

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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/18/2006 2:31:00 AM   
heartfeltsub


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Wonderful post Mercandbeth, it often surprising me both when i see it in myself as well as others, how often we forget "truths" that we should hold in the forefront of our minds.

Things like when the important people in our lives are no longer with us, most of us would be willing to do anything to have one more moment with them, as well as the truth that you have stated here, that we see in part, if we see at all.

Instead we seem, and it seems to be happening a great deal in here lately, so adamant about our one truth being the only truth that we as humans tend to attack and then also feel compelled to defend our truth to the detriment all other people's experiences.

Thank you for the post and the thoughts that it has sparked.

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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/18/2006 2:49:32 AM   
jojoluvr


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great poem -- and one i try to remember when listening to facts/opinions/ideas/etc on any topic.  as a relative-newbie to the site (especially the boards) and to the expansive world of bdsm, i learn more and more each day from the variety of perspectives i find on these boards.  they help me find my way -- even if the way takes numerous detours and isn't the shortest route.  i suspect, like most things, no matter how much i learn and how much my perspective broadens, i'm still not going to know all there is about the elephant.  i suspect no one else knows all there is either -- but i can learn from all the folks who have some experience with the elephant (even if it's simply learning to tread carefully).  while my anal retentive self would like clear-cut, definitive answers, i've found that life can be so much more meaningful and creative if we work with what's available rather than wishing for what doesn't exist....

forgive the rambling -- just my way of saying thanks for the reminder and the affirmation of what i've been discovering here...

jo


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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/18/2006 3:35:34 AM   
bandit25


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Well, I'n not a believer in there is one right way to do things.  I think there can be several right ways, but you may only have one right way.

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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/18/2006 5:32:01 AM   
JessieMe


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<wondering what seven people will come up with if blindfolded and touching a dancing banana>

Susan.. wonderful post!

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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/18/2006 5:49:55 AM   
TNstepsout


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Yes, you've hit the nail on the head. That's EXACTLY what it was like to be a newbie starting my quest right here on CM. I was terribly confused by the conflicting answers and when I tried to ask a question to clarify, the answers I got only confused me more. Not only are people writing from very different personal perspectives, but from differing experience levels. For example many sub/slaves have written the simple phrase "Master is always right". Well, perhaps in their long-term relationship, where complete trust has developed and grown over time, that is true. It is a goal. But it is a very dangerous concept if misunderstood by a newbie.


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RE: Blind People & the Elephant - 7/18/2006 5:56:45 AM   
LotusSong


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From: Domme Emeritus
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25


Well, I'n not a believer in there is one right way to do things.  I think there can be several right ways, but you may only have one right way.


There is more than one way to skin a cat.. and the cat doesn't like ANY of them! :)

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