quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Current rules on background checks apply to licensed dealers, but up to 40 percent of firearms sales involve private parties or gun shows and do not require checks, the chiefs said.

Here in lies the problem. Would the model and serial number of the firearm have to be included with a background check for a private sale ? If so, it amounts to the beginning of a registration system.

They are not required for an ATF sale, so I would think no.

What is wrong with knowing the model and serial number though? That is no closer a step to taking your guns away to know that.

In fact, it would help the police to solve cases and find murderers more quickly in many cases.

The model and serial numbers are on the 4473's.

That is correct. And the government doesnt see them for 20 years unless the FFL holder goes out of business in which case he ships them to them then.

All they know is longgun or handgun

And I noticed an article recently that those piled up in a huge building to overflowing with those 20 year old forms is languishing, because no money has been allocated to input them into the 4473 system.

Now, you get a phonebook every year, and by the time it is published, it is 15% out of round, minimum. How much more so, after 20 years?

Any time they want the information an ATF agent can stop by the store and get them. Come on, you know that. Didn't you claim to run a pawn shop and sell guns, or do I have you confused with someone else?

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Current rules on background checks apply to licensed dealers, but up to 40 percent of firearms sales involve private parties or gun shows and do not require checks, the chiefs said.

Here in lies the problem. Would the model and serial number of the firearm have to be included with a background check for a private sale ? If so, it amounts to the beginning of a registration system.

They are not required for an ATF sale, so I would think no.

What is wrong with knowing the model and serial number though? That is no closer a step to taking your guns away to know that.

In fact, it would help the police to solve cases and find murderers more quickly in many cases.

The model and serial numbers are on the 4473's.

That is correct. And the government doesnt see them for 20 years unless the FFL holder goes out of business in which case he ships them to them then.

All they know is longgun or handgun

And I noticed an article recently that those piled up in a huge building to overflowing with those 20 year old forms is languishing, because no money has been allocated to input them into the 4473 system.

Now, you get a phonebook every year, and by the time it is published, it is 15% out of round, minimum. How much more so, after 20 years?

Any time they want the information an ATF agent can stop by the store and get them. Come on, you know that. Didn't you claim to run a pawn shop and sell guns, or do I have you confused with someone else?

Nope, you are confused, absolutely full of shit as a christmas goose in fact, but I do own one and sell guns. No, an atf agent cannot just stop by the store and get them, unless there is an ongoing investigation (in which case, they cannot just get them either, but must get an order from a judge) they cant just walk out with them or just look at them (they would do so in an audit, but they arent going to write down information, just match them to the book, there is no time, and there is no more law for them to do so, than there is for a policeman to riffle license bureau records for tit staring). There are three ATF officers covering MN, ND, and SD, one of whom is the great-great-great-great-great grandnephew of Hermann Goering. There is no time or inclination to fuck around with stupid shit like you do.

an investigation goes thus:

Documentation and court orders are prepared, crime scene gun is checked with the manufacturer, who they sold to, then distributer, who they sold to, then customer who they sold to, and down the line until the chain is broken, if I am in that chain, then they will come with an official document that gives me (I cant remember 24 or 48 hours, but I can do it in 5 minutes) to come up with the 4473) IF AT SOME POINT a private sale occurs, and you have no proof of who you sold it to and when, your life will be in complete and miserable disarray for AT LEAST the next 3 months.

So, no, you dont know shit skipper. They cant just waltz in here and riffle thru my shit without cause and paperwork. And they cannot take the 4473 from me without a court order, that takes its place and is forwarded to the ATF when it hits the 20 year mark, or I give up business and send it in.

Should I die suddenly and unexpectedly, my heirs, thru court order if necessary, will be tasked to find those papers, to send to the ATF.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Great idea, I totally agree with you....

But, once more I have to ask, if the apparatus that is supposed to have all the information to prevent purchases by individuals who cannot under law purchase a firearm, isnt up to date, how is it going to work?

ATF agents, FBI, even gun owners and gun rights advocates are all asking the same question.

How in the hell are background checks going to work if the information is not there to find?

I would think police chiefs across the nation know more about that than I do.

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ORIGINAL: subrob1967

FR

Police Chief's are political appointees, they say what they're told to say.

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Great idea, I totally agree with you....

But, once more I have to ask, if the apparatus that is supposed to have all the information to prevent purchases by individuals who cannot under law purchase a firearm, isnt up to date, how is it going to work?

ATF agents, FBI, even gun owners and gun rights advocates are all asking the same question.

How in the hell are background checks going to work if the information is not there to find?

I would think police chiefs across the nation know more about that than I do.

Look Music, the Police Chief's association, the non NRA gun owners groups, the CDC, everybody is calling for better and more background checks for gun purchases.

And everyone of those groups know that the NCIC is voluntary at the state and local level.

At which point, the system breaks down, simply because you can have the most exhaustive back ground check in the world but if the information is not there, it aint going to amount to anything better than we have now.

There are over a dozen articles dealing with "Where did they get their guns" going back as far as Columbine.

So until you, and every pro gun and gun control person with a half a lick of common sense stands up and DEMANDS that NCIC be made mandatory at all levels, with the funding at ALL levels to support that requirement, it is not going to work.

But, here is the rub.

Gun control advocates, many of whom supported the push that MADD started to make driver's license information available from state to state to prevent DUI repeat offenders from getting a new license just by changing state of residence, wont or cant make the same freaking connection when it comes to guns.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: BamaD

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Current rules on background checks apply to licensed dealers, but up to 40 percent of firearms sales involve private parties or gun shows and do not require checks, the chiefs said.

Here in lies the problem. Would the model and serial number of the firearm have to be included with a background check for a private sale ? If so, it amounts to the beginning of a registration system.

They are not required for an ATF sale, so I would think no.

What is wrong with knowing the model and serial number though? That is no closer a step to taking your guns away to know that.

In fact, it would help the police to solve cases and find murderers more quickly in many cases.

The model and serial numbers are on the 4473's.

That is correct. And the government doesnt see them for 20 years unless the FFL holder goes out of business in which case he ships them to them then.

All they know is longgun or handgun

And I noticed an article recently that those piled up in a huge building to overflowing with those 20 year old forms is languishing, because no money has been allocated to input them into the 4473 system.

Now, you get a phonebook every year, and by the time it is published, it is 15% out of round, minimum. How much more so, after 20 years?

Any time they want the information an ATF agent can stop by the store and get them. Come on, you know that. Didn't you claim to run a pawn shop and sell guns, or do I have you confused with someone else?

Nope, you are confused, absolutely full of shit as a christmas goose in fact, but I do own one and sell guns. No, an atf agent cannot just stop by the store and get them, unless there is an ongoing investigation (in which case, they cannot just get them either, but must get an order from a judge) they cant just walk out with them or just look at them (they would do so in an audit, but they arent going to write down information, just match them to the book, there is no time, and there is no more law for them to do so, than there is for a policeman to riffle license bureau records for tit staring). There are three ATF officers covering MN, ND, and SD, one of whom is the great-great-great-great-great grandnephew of Hermann Goering. There is no time or inclination to fuck around with stupid shit like you do.

an investigation goes thus:

Documentation and court orders are prepared, crime scene gun is checked with the manufacturer, who they sold to, then distributer, who they sold to, then customer who they sold to, and down the line until the chain is broken, if I am in that chain, then they will come with an official document that gives me (I cant remember 24 or 48 hours, but I can do it in 5 minutes) to come up with the 4473) IF AT SOME POINT a private sale occurs, and you have no proof of who you sold it to and when, your life will be in complete and miserable disarray for AT LEAST the next 3 months.

So, no, you dont know shit skipper. They cant just waltz in here and riffle thru my shit without cause and paperwork. And they cannot take the 4473 from me without a court order, that takes its place and is forwarded to the ATF when it hits the 20 year mark, or I give up business and send it in.

Should I die suddenly and unexpectedly, my heirs, thru court order if necessary, will be tasked to find those papers, to send to the ATF.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, but no, since you have never been thru audits, and I have, and I know the law, and you dont, and I have the experience, and you dont, and I know these guys and you dont, your pretended hallucinatory scare scenario doesnt meet the minimum test for a chance at reality in any dimension of this universe.

Cops can come into your home anytime they want and take your guns, they dont need to know you have them, they can drop them there and thats that.

Studies show that 90 million guns are confiscated from american citizens every day in America under just those circumstances, and we know that there is no ATF nutsucker whistleblower, or doughnut hole nutsucker whistleblower telling us about this, only Breitbart, WND, and Sun Myung Moon.

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

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ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Current rules on background checks apply to licensed dealers, but up to 40 percent of firearms sales involve private parties or gun shows and do not require checks, the chiefs said.

Here in lies the problem. Would the model and serial number of the firearm have to be included with a background check for a private sale ? If so, it amounts to the beginning of a registration system.

They are not required for an ATF sale, so I would think no.

What is wrong with knowing the model and serial number though? That is no closer a step to taking your guns away to know that.

In fact, it would help the police to solve cases and find murderers more quickly in many cases.

The model and serial numbers are on the 4473's.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Great idea, I totally agree with you....

But, once more I have to ask, if the apparatus that is supposed to have all the information to prevent purchases by individuals who cannot under law purchase a firearm, isnt up to date, how is it going to work?

ATF agents, FBI, even gun owners and gun rights advocates are all asking the same question.

How in the hell are background checks going to work if the information is not there to find?

I would think police chiefs across the nation know more about that than I do.

Look Music, the Police Chief's association, the non NRA gun owners groups, the CDC, everybody is calling for better and more background checks for gun purchases.

And everyone of those groups know that the NCIC is voluntary at the state and local level.

At which point, the system breaks down, simply because you can have the most exhaustive back ground check in the world but if the information is not there, it aint going to amount to anything better than we have now.

There are over a dozen articles dealing with "Where did they get their guns" going back as far as Columbine.

So until you, and every pro gun and gun control person with a half a lick of common sense stands up and DEMANDS that NCIC be made mandatory at all levels, with the funding at ALL levels to support that requirement, it is not going to work.

But, here is the rub.

Gun control advocates, many of whom supported the push that MADD started to make driver's license information available from state to state to prevent DUI repeat offenders from getting a new license just by changing state of residence, wont or cant make the same freaking connection when it comes to guns.

You're making stuff up. I've seen no such opposition anywhere. Cite?

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

There's no need to be a dick. There are plenty of dicks here already.

This is not an either or scenario, nor is it causal -- why not just fix both?

And again, I'm willing to bet that the collection of police chiefs across the nation get that, and know what they're talking about.

You've even acknowledged it's a good idea--so what's the problem? Let's get these things fixed and let law enforcement do its job.