Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message

tweakabelle -> Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/3/2015 4:18:25 AM)

Ireland today announced plans to decriminalise possession of some drugs, and to open safe injecting rooms in main towns. This is a major departure from its previous punitive anti-drugs use laws. It is also, as far as I know, the first English speaking nation to adopt this new approach. The UK Independent reports:
"Ireland will move towards decriminalising drugs, including heroin, cocaine and cannabis, as part of a “radical cultural shift” it was announced on Monday.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, in charge of Ireland’s National Drugs Strategy, also told a lecture at the London School of Economics, that from next year drugs users will be able to inject in specially designated rooms in Dublin.

The minister said attitude to drugs need to move away from shaming addicts to helping them and emphasised there was a difference between legalisation and decriminalisation.

It would remain a crime to profit – from either the sale or distribution of illegal drugs – but drug takers would no longer be criminalised for their addictions.

“I am firmly of the view that there needs to be a cultural shift in how we regard substance misuse if we are to break this cycle and make a serious attempt to tackle drug and alcohol addiction,” said Mr Ó Ríordáin.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ireland-to-decriminalise-small-amounts-of-drugs-including-heroin-cocaine-and-cannabis-for-personal-a6719136.html

Ireland becomes the latest country to join the growing international trend away from treating drug use as a legal/policing issue and approaching the issue from a health perspective instead. In Europe Portugal Switzerland and Holland all operate relaxed drug use approaches. There are growing moves in Latin and South American away from the failed US-led 'War on Drugs' approach and towards implementing moves to legalise or decriminalise drug use. Several US States have legalised cannabis use with more predicted to follow. Even ultra conservative Iran is considering a new liberal drugs regime

The monolith of oppressive punitive zero tolerance approaches is showing more and more cracks as time go by. It is surely only a matter of time before it collapses and we rid ourselves of its onerous lunacy.

And good on Ireland which has gone from being seen as a conservative backwater labouring under an overdose of religion to a world leader on social justice and progressive issues! IIRC, O Riordan was also the politician leading the yes campaign in the recent successful marriage equality referendum. He seems very enlightened for a politician. What a refreshing change!

Your thoughts ........



DesideriScuri -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 5:23:33 AM)

While the results of actions taken in one country will not necessarily be the same results in another country taking the same actions, this will be interesting to watch. Has drug use dropped in Portugal, Switzerland and Holland? Maybe just "extreme" drug use, which would be welcome, imo.

In more local (to me, anyway) news, Ohio just passed Issues 2 & 3 last yesterday. Issue 3 creates an Ohio Constitutional Amendment legalizing marijuana for medical and recreational use, and set up 10 growing sites across Ohio with exclusive growing rights. Issue 2 (which is actually a response to Issue 3) bans the use of the Ohio Constitution to create monopolies. Now, we have to wait and see how this all shakes out, as it's possible that Issue 2 prevents Issue 3 from creating 10 exclusive growing sites, but doesn't change the legalization of marijuana use. Another thing to watch for is how Issue 2 affects the casino gambling industry in Ohio. A few years ago, Ohio voters voted in support of an Ohio Constitutional amendment to legalize casino gambling limited to 4 locations (2 "brands" each with 2 sites) and some other forms of gambling in horsetracks ("racino's"). Issue 2, it would seem, would invalidate that, too.

Still, it will be interesting to see. I think it's a great step forward for Ireland. I also think it's a step forward the US should take, even though it's not going to change the role of currently-illegal drug usage in my life.



Kreychec -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 7:15:46 AM)

Good on Ohio!
Sadly I may probably be long dead before weed is legalized throughout the Us. I was considering moving to panama due to no income tax and lone behold, shits illegal. Fml.



bounty44 -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 7:31:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Still, it will be interesting to see. I think it's a great step forward for Ireland. I also think it's a step forward the US should take, even though it's not going to change the role of currently-illegal drug usage in my life.


stuff like this provides an interesting tension between my libertarian and conservative bents. on the former hand, I want limited government, lots of individual freedom and an emphasis on free markets & choices swaying culture.

however on the latter hand, history shows sobriety to have great traditional value. personally, I don't want to imagine "recreational drug users" engaging with the rest of humanity in any purposeful way---police, doctors, teachers, factory workers. and that is true even on the "receiving" end of the relationship---students, patients, clients, whoever. I could say the same thing about personal/familial relationships.

yes it will be interesting to see (I don't want drugs legalized) but I think an awful lot of heartache, frustration, violations and other outright damage is going to occur in the meantime.





tj444 -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 10:23:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Ireland today announced plans to decriminalise possession of some drugs, and to open safe injecting rooms in main towns. This is a major departure from its previous punitive anti-drugs use laws. It is also, as far as I know, the first English speaking nation to adopt this new approach. The UK Independent reports:
"Ireland will move towards decriminalising drugs, including heroin, cocaine and cannabis, as part of a “radical cultural shift” it was announced on Monday.

Your thoughts ........

well,.. its all well and good for politicians (just like Justin in Canada.. thats Justin the new PM, not the beiber) to make such announcements but many countries have treaties/agreements/pacts on outlawing pot & other illegal drugs.. I think there is about 3 (or more?) such agreements which would cause a problem if countries started actually legalizing pot, etc.. So I take a wait and see attitude.. just sayin'

http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2011/03/50th_anniversary_of_treaty_outlawing_cannabis_worl.php



tj444 -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 11:50:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

While the results of actions taken in one country will not necessarily be the same results in another country taking the same actions, this will be interesting to watch. Has drug use dropped in Portugal, Switzerland and Holland? Maybe just "extreme" drug use, which would be welcome, imo.

In more local (to me, anyway) news, Ohio just passed Issues 2 & 3 last yesterday. Issue 3 creates an Ohio Constitutional Amendment legalizing marijuana for medical and recreational use, and set up 10 growing sites across Ohio with exclusive growing rights. Issue 2 (which is actually a response to Issue 3) bans the use of the Ohio Constitution to create monopolies. Now, we have to wait and see how this all shakes out, as it's possible that Issue 2 prevents Issue 3 from creating 10 exclusive growing sites, but doesn't change the legalization of marijuana use. Another thing to watch for is how Issue 2 affects the casino gambling industry in Ohio. A few years ago, Ohio voters voted in support of an Ohio Constitutional amendment to legalize casino gambling limited to 4 locations (2 "brands" each with 2 sites) and some other forms of gambling in horsetracks ("racino's"). Issue 2, it would seem, would invalidate that, too.

Still, it will be interesting to see. I think it's a great step forward for Ireland. I also think it's a step forward the US should take, even though it's not going to change the role of currently-illegal drug usage in my life.

ok, what am I missing here?... the headlines today say that Ohio voted no to legalizing pot..

http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-votes-legalizing-pot-medical-recreational-174223541--politics.html#



MrRodgers -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 2:20:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Still, it will be interesting to see. I think it's a great step forward for Ireland. I also think it's a step forward the US should take, even though it's not going to change the role of currently-illegal drug usage in my life.


stuff like this provides an interesting tension between my libertarian and conservative bents. on the former hand, I want limited government, lots of individual freedom and an emphasis on free markets & choices swaying culture.

however on the latter hand, history shows sobriety to have great traditional value. personally, I don't want to imagine "recreational drug users" engaging with the rest of humanity in any purposeful way---police, doctors, teachers, factory workers. and that is true even on the "receiving" end of the relationship---students, patients, clients, whoever. I could say the same thing about personal/familial relationships.

yes it will be interesting to see (I don't want drugs legalized) but I think an awful lot of heartache, frustration, violations and other outright damage is going to occur in the meantime.




Well depending on who one reads, it's anywhere from $20,000 to $40,000 per annum, per prisoner to jail the offenders.

Plus, if one looks back at how history has treated cocaine and morphine, it was legal and eventually a fad that died out for decades for the former and after 40,000 doctors in jail, turned into a regulated medicinal regime for the latter...we inform ourselves.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 5:09:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
While the results of actions taken in one country will not necessarily be the same results in another country taking the same actions, this will be interesting to watch. Has drug use dropped in Portugal, Switzerland and Holland? Maybe just "extreme" drug use, which would be welcome, imo.
In more local (to me, anyway) news, Ohio just passed Issues 2 & 3 last yesterday. Issue 3 creates an Ohio Constitutional Amendment legalizing marijuana for medical and recreational use, and set up 10 growing sites across Ohio with exclusive growing rights. Issue 2 (which is actually a response to Issue 3) bans the use of the Ohio Constitution to create monopolies. Now, we have to wait and see how this all shakes out, as it's possible that Issue 2 prevents Issue 3 from creating 10 exclusive growing sites, but doesn't change the legalization of marijuana use. Another thing to watch for is how Issue 2 affects the casino gambling industry in Ohio. A few years ago, Ohio voters voted in support of an Ohio Constitutional amendment to legalize casino gambling limited to 4 locations (2 "brands" each with 2 sites) and some other forms of gambling in horsetracks ("racino's"). Issue 2, it would seem, would invalidate that, too.
Still, it will be interesting to see. I think it's a great step forward for Ireland. I also think it's a step forward the US should take, even though it's not going to change the role of currently-illegal drug usage in my life.

ok, what am I missing here?... the headlines today say that Ohio voted no to legalizing pot..
http://news.yahoo.com/ohio-votes-legalizing-pot-medical-recreational-174223541--politics.html#


You made the mistake (no you didn't) of using up-to-date information while I didn't make a mistake (yes I did) and used results without noting that not all the votes had been counted.

Thanks for the catch, and, my mistake.

ETA: I didn't support Issue 3 because it legalized a limited few businesses to grow and distribute pot. I'm all for full legalization, and support it being regulated the same way alcohol is regulated. I can brew 100 gallons of beer before I have to start paying taxes and other regulations, and I'm not allowed to sell the beer I brew. Similarly, I should be able to grow weed (I'd be an instant billionaire, if "weed" included all the yard weeds my lawn seems to prefer over actual grass, and I could sell it) for personal, non-commercial uses.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 5:13:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Still, it will be interesting to see. I think it's a great step forward for Ireland. I also think it's a step forward the US should take, even though it's not going to change the role of currently-illegal drug usage in my life.

stuff like this provides an interesting tension between my libertarian and conservative bents. on the former hand, I want limited government, lots of individual freedom and an emphasis on free markets & choices swaying culture.
however on the latter hand, history shows sobriety to have great traditional value. personally, I don't want to imagine "recreational drug users" engaging with the rest of humanity in any purposeful way---police, doctors, teachers, factory workers. and that is true even on the "receiving" end of the relationship---students, patients, clients, whoever. I could say the same thing about personal/familial relationships.
yes it will be interesting to see (I don't want drugs legalized) but I think an awful lot of heartache, frustration, violations and other outright damage is going to occur in the meantime.


Cities, hospitals, school districts, and factory management don't have to accept drug users as employees, and don't have to allow employees to be under the influence while at work. If you're drunk at work, you'll likely find yourself out of a job, even though drinking is legal. Where I work, you can get written up and/or terminated for smoking on premises.

Just because an activity is legal doesn't mean it's going to show up everywhere. Let people decide what they want to do, and let them suffer the consequences of their choices.



bounty44 -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 6:35:44 PM)

im all for letting people suffer the consequences of their choices---its the other people I am more concerned with, the ones on the receiving end of the user's attention, whatever the attention is.

I don't suggest its going to show up everywhere (at least all the time), but its likely to show up more, and in places where it previously hadn't.

I cannot imagine how any potential employer, if their desire is to have "clean" workers, is successfully going to screen for, and pardon the expression, weed out drug users before hiring.

at the same time, drugs are insidious and its not just the acute use that's a concern to me, its the chronic effects.

im fond of quoting an old writing by john donne---one very famous part of it is "no man is an island entirely unto himself." the essence of the poem, though its about death, is how we are all caught up in each other. if I do drugs, I don't just harm myself. in some way, I harm, if not everyone, then at least many people, I come into meaningful contact with.



bounty44 -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 6:56:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Still, it will be interesting to see. I think it's a great step forward for Ireland. I also think it's a step forward the US should take, even though it's not going to change the role of currently-illegal drug usage in my life.


stuff like this provides an interesting tension between my libertarian and conservative bents. on the former hand, I want limited government, lots of individual freedom and an emphasis on free markets & choices swaying culture.

however on the latter hand, history shows sobriety to have great traditional value. personally, I don't want to imagine "recreational drug users" engaging with the rest of humanity in any purposeful way---police, doctors, teachers, factory workers. and that is true even on the "receiving" end of the relationship---students, patients, clients, whoever. I could say the same thing about personal/familial relationships.

yes it will be interesting to see (I don't want drugs legalized) but I think an awful lot of heartache, frustration, violations and other outright damage is going to occur in the meantime.




Well depending on who one reads, it's anywhere from $20,000 to $40,000 per annum, per prisoner to jail the offenders.

Plus, if one looks back at how history has treated cocaine and morphine, it was legal and eventually a fad that died out for decades for the former and after 40,000 doctors in jail, turned into a regulated medicinal regime for the latter...we inform ourselves.


relatively few people are in prison due solely to marijuana use. its in the low single digits as a %. but that said, im not suggesting that people who use just marijuana should be imprisoned either. along the lines of penalties, I think there are far more effective "punishments/deterrents."

as for the harder stuff, that's not even close to being on the table for me.




tweakabelle -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/4/2015 11:51:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

im fond of quoting an old writing by john donne---one very famous part of it is "no man is an island entirely unto himself." the essence of the poem, though its about death, is how we are all caught up in each other.

Yes "no man is an island". Indeed.

I know it's a bit off topic, but I find it difficult to reconcile the wisdom of this saying with your far Right/near libertatian approach to politics. Libertarianism, with its emphasis on an extreme and uncompromising version of individualism, seems to me to stand in direct opposition to the logic of "no man is an island". Libertarianism seems to me to assert that every manperson is an island, and each of us sinks or swims according to that individual's own efforts and their own efforts alone.

So I will be intrigued to see how you reconcile this tension.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/5/2015 12:34:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
im all for letting people suffer the consequences of their choices---its the other people I am more concerned with, the ones on the receiving end of the user's attention, whatever the attention is.
I don't suggest its going to show up everywhere (at least all the time), but its likely to show up more, and in places where it previously hadn't.
I cannot imagine how any potential employer, if their desire is to have "clean" workers, is successfully going to screen for, and pardon the expression, weed out drug users before hiring.
at the same time, drugs are insidious and its not just the acute use that's a concern to me, its the chronic effects.
im fond of quoting an old writing by john donne---one very famous part of it is "no man is an island entirely unto himself." the essence of the poem, though its about death, is how we are all caught up in each other. if I do drugs, I don't just harm myself. in some way, I harm, if not everyone, then at least many people, I come into meaningful contact with.


At some point in time, those that choose to use drugs will either see the harm, and right themselves, or will - pun intended - weed themselves out. Obviously, making drugs illegal isn't stopping people from using them. I think it's better to embrace it and regulate it. Yeah, I know, I'm supporting government regulation, but I'm not opposed to ALL regulation, and I recognize that some regulation is almost always necessary for a properly performing Market. It's about labeling laws, and verifying that what the consumer believes he is buying, is actually what he is buying.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/5/2015 12:38:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
im fond of quoting an old writing by john donne---one very famous part of it is "no man is an island entirely unto himself." the essence of the poem, though its about death, is how we are all caught up in each other.

Yes "no man is an island". Indeed.
I know it's a bit off topic, but I find it difficult to reconcile the wisdom of this saying with your far Right/near libertatian approach to politics. Libertarianism, with its emphasis on an extreme and uncompromising version of individualism, seems to me to stand in direct opposition to the logic of "no man is an island". Libertarianism seems to me to assert that every manperson is an island, and each of us sinks or swims according to that individual's own efforts and their own efforts alone.
So I will be intrigued to see how you reconcile this tension.


There is no tension. As long as you're not infringing on other people's rights, you're good. We do need each other, though, and that's where the "no man is an island" thing comes in. There is a difference between forcing people to support others, and allowing people to choose to support others. Charity does not come from government. It comes from an individual choosing to give.



tweakabelle -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/5/2015 1:11:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
im fond of quoting an old writing by john donne---one very famous part of it is "no man is an island entirely unto himself." the essence of the poem, though its about death, is how we are all caught up in each other.

Yes "no man is an island". Indeed.
I know it's a bit off topic, but I find it difficult to reconcile the wisdom of this saying with your far Right/near libertatian approach to politics. Libertarianism, with its emphasis on an extreme and uncompromising version of individualism, seems to me to stand in direct opposition to the logic of "no man is an island". Libertarianism seems to me to assert that every manperson is an island, and each of us sinks or swims according to that individual's own efforts and their own efforts alone.
So I will be intrigued to see how you reconcile this tension.


There is no tension. As long as you're not infringing on other people's rights, you're good. We do need each other, though, and that's where the "no man is an island" thing comes in. There is a difference between forcing people to support others, and allowing people to choose to support others. Charity does not come from government. It comes from an individual choosing to give.


Why do you see the extent of anyone's social obligations to be limited to "charity"?

To me, this seems to be a rather simplistic perspective. I've never heard of a society where this model represents the extent of obligations between an individual and society. Even in the most basic of societies the extent of mutual obligations between an individual and the social collective are multi-layered and complex, and extend far beyond "charity". To name just a few, self defence, the enforcement of social rules, education, healthcare systems, manufacturing economic commodities and socio-cultural productions spring to mind.

In the more complex societies of the industrialised West we inhabit, these mutual obligations are far more sophisticated, multi-layered and interdependent. Those mutual obligations are the very fabric of society - when one or both sides fails to deliver upon their obligations, the result can be as profound and far reaching as social collapse. Modern States operate upon the consent of their citizens, and when a significant proportion of citizens withhold that consent, the society is in danger of collapsing.

So my feeling is that the relationships and obligations between an individual and the society they reside in require a far more complex explanation than your model is capable of delivering.



Lucylastic -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/5/2015 3:51:11 AM)

Alcohol is far more dangerous/ ugly /and destroys more lives than marijuana ever will.
Crack /cocaine? not so much.



thompsonx -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/5/2015 4:33:59 AM)

Has drug use dropped in Portugal, Switzerland and Holland?


What a stupid question. What would cause you to say something so stupid? The purpose of decriminalization is not to reduce drug use but to lower the cost of to the state of prosecuting them.

Maybe just "extreme" drug use, which would be welcome, imo.

Why do you feel it is your job or the states job to regulate what drugs adults use in the privacy of their homes? Why do you believe in the nanny state. Why do you feel that adults are not capable of making their own decissions without he state sticking their nose up their assess?



thompsonx -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/5/2015 4:40:38 AM)

relatively few people are in prison due solely to marijuana use.

70% of the people in prison in the u.s. are in prison for drug related offenses...stop acting like a dumbass and educate yourself/

its in the low single digits as a %. but that said, im not suggesting that people who use just marijuana should be imprisoned either. along the lines of penalties, I think there are far more effective "punishments/deterrents."

You seem very interested in the creation of a nanny state where you can tell folks what sort of drugs they can use and what they may not. Pretty fascists don't you think?[8|]

as for the harder stuff, that's not even close to being on the table for me.

Another vote for the nanny state



thompsonx -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/5/2015 4:43:18 AM)


ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Alcohol is far more dangerous/ ugly /and destroys more lives than marijuana ever will.
Crack /cocaine? not so much.

Au contrare...crack is about as pure as you can get coke. Without the adulterants it is a harmless and non addictive drug with no lethality.



thompsonx -> RE: Ireland to decriminalise drug use ...... (11/5/2015 4:46:53 AM)

I'm not opposed to ALL regulation,

Just the regulation that affects you. Those regs that affect others ypu seem to support. The nannyb state seems to be your model for others



Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.0625