RE: Stalking in kink land (Full Version)

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Wayward5oul -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/13/2015 7:36:34 PM)

I have to disagree with you on this one. I have never been stalked in a violent manner, my stalking experiences are limiting to the harmless stalking that you described as having experienced yourself, and stalking done for the purpose of trying to discredit me in court (they failed). So I appreciate how it can seem to be so easily avoided. But I think that we struck the lottery there. I have had reason to be familiar with how stalking can disrupt lives, so I can tell you with complete confidence that our experiences are not the norm.

I agree that giving any kind of response, beyond demanding that they leave you alone, is seen by the stalker as encouragement. So once you have demanded that they leave you alone, and have evidence of that, refusing to engage with them in any shape, form, or fashion is absolutely good advice.

But that doesn't mean that you should just sit back and do nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
if it's someone online who you've never met, or someone you met once for a coffee, it is very unlikely that it will last for a significant length of time, and such cases are the least likely to end in violence.

If it is someone that you have never met, this may be true. But stalking by someone that you have never met is the least common form of stalking. According to the most recent figures, 86% of female stalking victims were stalked by someone they knew. 76% of male stalking victims knew their stalker.

11% of stalking victims were stalked for 5 years or more.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
http://www.stalkinghelpline.org/faq/about-stalking/
http://www.slideshare.net/bsblack/learning-unit-7-stalking-and-dvcrj-461
http://www.ojphi.org/ojs/index.php/fm/article/view/1086/1006

These sites are citing sources that are seriously outdated, or just dead links. Just in the last 20 years, technology has given rise to forms of and levels of stalking that laws still have not managed to keep up with. These sources do not take any of that into account. Stalking today is an entirely different animal than it was 20 years ago.

The numbers I am citing here have all been cited and/or published by the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, The National Center for Victims of Crime, The American Bar Association, and The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), all in 2014 or 2015.
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/summary_reports.html
https://www.ncadv.org/files/Domestic%20Violence%20and%20Stalking%20NCADV.pdf
https://www.victimsofcrime.org/docs/default-source/src/stalking-fact-sheet-2015_eng.pdf?sfvrsn=2
http://www.americanbar.org/groups/domestic_violence/resources/statistics.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
Also, after 6 months of unwanted contact from my stalker, I was actually in a state that was much healthier than when I had been responding to him, so I doubt that your analysis is true for everyone. The longer I ignored him, the less he contacted me and the less emotionally effective his messages were.


Again, you were lucky.

1 in 7 stalking victims move as a result of their victimization.

The prevalence of anxiety, insomnia, social dysfunction, and severe depression is much higher among stalking victims than the general population, especially if the stalking involves being followed or having one’s property destroyed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
Of course you should tell them, once. After that, nothing. This is backed up by all main website advice.

Actually, even the links that you provided stress evidence collection from the outset, actions to take to make yourself even less accessible, calling service providers (phone companies and such) for advice about blocking the stalking through those particular means, and contacting police.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
"Stalkers want a reaction whether it’s positive or negative. It is crucial to ensure that everyone involved understands the importance of not appealing to the stalker to stop, threatening them or retaliating to provocation"


Agree 100%. But not retaliating, not threatening, and not appealing to the stalker does not mean 'don't take measures to protect yourself'. Don't react to the stalker, but be proactive regarding yourself.


quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA

Disengage from contact with them, deflect their attention onto old profiles that you no longer use or visit and minimise disruption into your life. To quote a high level personal security expert:

"contrary to the scary and alarming stories shown on the local news, very few date-stalking situations end in violence. The news people would have you believe that if you're being stalked, you'd better get your will in order, but this level of alarm is usually inappropriate. Date-stalkers do not jump from nonviolent harassment to homicide without escalations along the way, escalations that are almost always apparent or at least detectable."


I don't know who your source is, but according to the Journal of Forensic Sciences, and reprinted by the CDC, research shows that "Intimate partner stalkers frequently approach their targets, and their behaviors escalate quickly ".

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
In fact, most contact, including threats, can safely be ignored. The cases where you should not ignore a threat are:

Perceived Justification - does the stalker feel that they are justified in using violence against you? ("It's your fault I have to do this. You made me do this."
Perceived Alternatives - does the stalker feel that they have no other alternative than to use violence against you? ("I have no other choice but to do this.")
Perceived Consequences - does the stalker feel that they can accept the consequences of using violence against you? ("I don't care about the consequences. I'm willing to do time for you.")
Perceived Ability - does the stalker make statements that suggest they can use violence against you? ("I've got a gun / knife."

Most unwanted contact does not include anything like this level of threat and so, it is actually not a threat! It is merely irritating and you can simply take steps to minimise the disruption without worrying about your personal safety.

86% of women who are victims of homicide and sexual assault reported stalking within the year prior to their death.

That's 9 in 10. I hesitate to say that most stalking is not a threat. In fact all of the evidence says the exact opposite.



ResidentSadist -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/13/2015 11:14:33 PM)

~FR

I am not sure how to add to your OP. You talked about cease and desist. You can file for a civil court ordered cease and desist ($180.00) and pay to have it served by an official. Or you can file a criminal stalking complaint and get a restraining order.

In the spirit of sharing, I have had to file a restraining order. Not that I can't stop someone. But if I end up shooting someone that is stalking me, having a restraining order in place gives me better ground to stand on for self defense if it should come to that.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 3:44:06 AM)

You can only file a cease and desist if you actually know who the person is.

Unfortunately with more and more technology, it's not uncommon that you get stalkers from the internet. There's a ton of people out there not playing with a full deck of cards, it doesn't mean they are stupid, some of them are highly intelligent and can gather information about you, that they will then use against you, they're screwed up but intelligent.

In a lot of cases people do ignore early warning signs and don't keep the evidence, which is normal. I made the mistake of deleting a ton of mails, thought I just clean up, move on and wait as I believed showing no reaction would discourage him, you know the usual drill.

My first stalker was almost 20 years ago, I had sold a few dresses on eBay and some psycho bought one, at the time I was in Germany, the person who bought something off you automatically got your address, email address and the bank details so s/he could pay into your account. I had made the mistake of modelling the dresses (well, on a hanger you couldn't see them properly) but with my face cropped out and psychopath buyer decided that we are meant for each other or something like that. He started writing me emails, telling me he's lonely and he's got cancer, I had just lost my brother to cancer while I had survived a nasty ovarian tumour so it really struck a nerve (apart from the fact that I was having a bad case of survivor's guilt). What I didn't know was that he searched for my email addy and found me on a board where people who had lost loved ones to cancer were talking to each other, you know the whole thing of helping each other through, he really sucked me in. We sometimes talked, even on the phone, then he got creepier and creepier, you know sexual comments and I carefully sort of backed off, with "Sorry, work and stuff...." Apparently that pushed a trigger.
At the time I was working in the media, so as you can imagine following me online wasn't difficult, especially since the magazines started to go online, ha, and first I was so proud that my columns and interviews were available online... Superb for a stalker, you know if he sees a report of something happening on the other side of the planet, I won't be home... When I came home, I could hardly get into my flat, he had ordered about everything you could order, TVs, washing machines, electric drills... Since he had my account details he just filled out the forms online, via bank transfer it was paid. I spent days and days just trying to contact the shops and arranging returns, trying to explain I really hadn't ordered it somebody is playing a bad prank....

I went to the cops, got one who didn't even have online access and said he doesn't understand and if I'm sure I didn't order it, showed him the papers and my passport, with entry and exit stamps from the US during the time it happened, comment "Well if you can afford to travel, but I can't see the crime...." I was tempted to grab him by the throat. So I went through the whole trouble of changing the bank account and all that, changing all standing orders. Thought that was it. Then asshat somehow hacked my eBay account and sold stuff on it which he never delivered, quite expensive shit, he had also changed the bank info on the account. I thought hopefully they catch him now, but he hadn't used his own account but that of a woman, single mom he had met at some lonely hearts phone chat, he convinced her he was going through a rough divorce and the wife is trying to take all his assets, if she'd just open a bank account for him, no overdraft possible, and give him the card... She did... Police first assumed she was an accomplice of mine, the woman didn't even have online access.
I ended up paying for a private eye, one of the cops was a bit friendlier and explained they don't have the resources, their whole internet department just deals with kiddie porn and such, it's not "serious enough" for them and he would recommend that I gather the evidence myself.
It was amazing what the PE found out, he was trolling the net and phone chats, apparently he specialized on single moms or women getting through rough divorces, claimed to be a battered husband on boards dealing with domestic abuse, was on every health board.
When the cops finally confiscated his computer, they also found out that he had swindled a lot of old people out of their savings, that's what bought him 1 year in jail, it was bad luck that when all that shit happened to me and the other women, they were just talking about the stalking laws and they came into effect a few months later.

I thought it was a once in a life-time experience, so a few years ago I ended up talking to some guy on a board, we were platonic friends for ages, then there was the disagreement about the N word, and hell broke loose again, I thought him being in the US and stuff, what the hell could he do, all he had was my email addy and a phone number, I learned how much trouble you can cause with that, you know on another continent... Again the first few things I just ignored, thinking he would grow tired, the problem is that to be a stalker you have to be freaking insane, a sane person can't understand how their mind works (in way that is a blessing), so for a lot of them no reaction just means they got to try harder. One therapist explained that they are incapable of seeing what they do wrong, which makes them so dangerous, they actually convinced themselves that their actions are right and just and that they are punishing you for something that only exists in their screwed up mind.

There really is no easy way out, you react, they got the reaction they wanted, you don't react, they will try harder and imagine the impact they have on your life and you suffering, which for them is enough encouragement. The only thing that sometimes will stop them if they are aware the authorities are involved. It's not a guarantee that they will stop, but it's a lot better than doing nothing.

Also statistically stalkers will grow bolder with every time they get away with something, like the guy who will tear out the wings of butterflies in a lot of cases will then proceed and hurt cats, dogs and ends up with humans, the getting away with it is encouragement for them. In a way it must be like a drug for them.




sweetieDA -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 4:19:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
...I can tell you with complete confidence that our experiences are not the norm.

Do you have any statistics on this, or is it just your opinion?

quote:

Wayward5oul
If it is someone that you have never met, this may be true. But stalking by someone that you have never met is the least common form of stalking. According to the most recent figures, 86% of female stalking victims were stalked by someone they knew. 76% of male stalking victims knew their stalker.

Right but, as far as I could tell, this thread was about date and / or cyber stalking, which, as you have already agreed, IS usually the minor end of stalking. If a woman was being stalked by her violent ex-husband, I would give radically different advice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
11% of stalking victims were stalked for 5 years or more.

Which means that 89% were stalked for 5 years or less. In fact, 40% of victims were stalked for less than 6 months, and 64% were stalked for less than a year. This is important because it challenges comments made on this thread that 'most' stalking is 7 years or more, which is wildly incorrect and simply fear-mongering.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
These sites are citing sources that are seriously outdated, or just dead links.

None of those links are dead or outdated. One is an academic paper from 2003, one is a teaching website from 2010, which quotes articles from 2009 and one is a National UK Stalking Helpline from 2015.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
Just in the last 20 years, technology has given rise to forms of and levels of stalking that laws still have not managed to keep up with. These sources do not take any of that into account.

Please can you explain how a National Stalking Helpline from 2015 has not managed to 'keep up with' forms and levels of stalking in the last 20 years? Unlike the sources used for your NVADV article, some of which are from 1997, 1998 and 1999 and which reference websites no longer available? Or your victims of crime factsheet, which quotes sources from 1999 and 2002? Or your ABA article, which quotes studies from 1988, 1989, 1991, 1994, 1995, 1998 and 1999? In fact, there is not one fact on there that is older than 2006, yet you're lecturing me on dates?!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
Stalking today is an entirely different animal than it was 20 years ago.

Better update your info then :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
Also, after 6 months of unwanted contact from my stalker, I was actually in a state that was much healthier than when I had been responding to him, so I doubt that your analysis is true for everyone. The longer I ignored him, the less he contacted me and the less emotionally effective his messages were.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
you were lucky. 1 in 7 stalking victims move as a result of their victimization.

Which means that 6 in 7 don't. Which means that I'm not lucky, I'm typical. Once again, fear mongering is not helpful. Also, the facts for this are highly debatable. They appear to come from a link to this report:

http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/ovw/legacy/2012/08/15/bjs-stalking-rpt.pdf

This report then *quotes* the fact that 1 in 7 victims of stalking moved as a result of the stalking, yet it offers no evidence for this assertion. When the victims were asked why they thought the stalking had stopped, 10% answered because they had moved. Yet this is 1 in 10, not 1 in 7, and it does not suggest a cause for the moving. It could have been caused by the stalking, or incidental to it. For example, another of the reasons for the stalking having stopped mentioned that 9% of stalkers had moved away. It also states that the police recommended that the victim move away in 1.3% of cases, but that this was from a sample of 'less than ten' people. So we actually have no evidence at all that 1 in 7 victims of stalking moves house as a result. I certainly doubt that 1 in 10 victims of cyber stalking move house as a result.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
The prevalence of anxiety, insomnia, social dysfunction, and severe depression is much higher among stalking victims than the general population, especially if the stalking involves being followed or having one’s property destroyed.

This fact comes from a report written in 2002. Another fact about the effect on victims comes from a report written in 1998. I would hazard a guess that stalking prior to the internet was more severe and thus had a much greater effect on victims. In this day and age, where virtually all of us can report unwanted emails, and thus meet the definition of stalking, I very much doubt that the majority of us suffer from the same characteristics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
Of course you should tell them, once. After that, nothing. This is backed up by all main website advice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
Actually, even the links that you provided stress evidence collection from the outset, actions to take to make yourself even less accessible, calling service providers (phone companies and such) for advice about blocking the stalking through those particular means, and contacting police.

My quote was in response to continued communication with the stalker. It is disingenuous to take it out of context and apply it to questions of data collection, which I made no comment on.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
...not retaliating, not threatening, and not appealing to the stalker does not mean 'don't take measures to protect yourself'. Don't react to the stalker, but be proactive regarding yourself.

I did offer proactive advice. I suggested changing accounts, minimising disruption, de-escalating the situation and disengaging with the stalker. Record collection is usually very simple with ICT - your phone keeps a record of calls and messages, your email account keeps the messages that are sent to it. I also offered advice for when a threat IS severe and you should take action (for when a stalker matches the Justification, No Alternatives, Consequences, Ability criteria) but I also stated that it is very rare that this will happen, and it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
I don't know who your source is, but according to the Journal of Forensic Sciences, and reprinted by the CDC, research shows that "Intimate partner stalkers frequently approach their targets, and their behaviors escalate quickly ".

86% of women who are victims of homicide and sexual assault reported stalking within the year prior to their death.

That's 9 in 10. I hesitate to say that most stalking is not a threat. In fact all of the evidence says the exact opposite.


You are confusing statistics. 9 in 10 dead women being stalked is not the same as 9 in 10 stalking victims being dead. You have not provided any evidence at all as to the outcomes of most stalking.

At a very, very, very crude estimate, up to 700,000 women were stalked in the UK last year and 150 women were killed by homicide. Even if we assume that all women murdered last year were as a result of stalking, that still only gives us 0.02% of stalking victims being murdered. Quite a bit different from your 9 in 10. Once again - fear mongering does not help anybody, and peddling incorrect statistics helps even less.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/517195/Stalkers-target-up-to-700-000-women-every-year
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/feb/08/killing-of-women-by-men-record-database-femicide




LadyConstanze -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 4:53:42 AM)

http://www.stalkinghelpline.org/faq/about-stalking/


quote:

Who can be a victim of stalking?

Anyone can become a victim of stalking. A report produced by Dr. Lorraine Sheridan and Network for Surviving Stalking, in which 2,292 victims of stalking were surveyed, found that victims’ ages ranged from 10 to 73, they were male and female, were spread across the entire socio-economic spectrum and a large proportion (38%) were professionals. Dr. Sheridan concludes that virtually anyone can become a victim of stalking and the only way to avoid doing so would be to avoid the social world.
How long does stalking last?

There is no definite answer to this question. Dr. Lorraine Sheridan’s report (see above) found that stalking could last anywhere from 1 month to 43 years. The average length of time was found to be between 6 months and 2 years. Dr. Sheridan also found that the duration of stalking tends to increase as the stalker’s emotional investment in the relationship increases. This is one of the reasons ex-intimate stalking is often considered to be the most dangerous.
Can stalking without violence still be damaging?

Yes. The absence of violence in a stalking case doesn’t mean the victim is unaffected. Stalking can cause severe psychological distress to a victim. Depression, anxiety, sleep disturbance, paranoia, agoraphobia and post-traumatic stress disorder are all common side effects of stalking.
What key information would you give to stalking victims?

Trust your instincts, if someone is making you feel scared or intimidated do not ignore these feelings, research indicates early intervention in a stalking case can stop it. After you have told your stalker once clearly and firmly that you no longer wish to have any contact with them try not to engage with or meet them again, even if it is to tell them to leave you alone.



In mild cases it can be over within a short amount of time, but once a stalker has invested a significant amount of resources, it's usually 5 to 7 years average.

It's not fear mongering, what you are doing is giving a false sense of security and trying to convince people that it will be over soon if they don't do anything. Unfortunately stalkers are unpredictable, not every stalker is the kind of person (or maybe just not yet) who will grow bored, far too many get off on the power trip, imagining what it does to their victim, the feeling that they are doing something worthy (in their own screwed up mind).

You know not every woman who walks home through a shady neighbourhood is going to get raped, but you wouldn't tell them that it's unlikely that they do.

And in case you are one of the people who don't have the easily bored stalker, you don't get a great lot of comfort from "Oh usually it doesn't take long".

You really have no idea how hurtful comments like yours were when I was living through years of it, if your life falls to pieces, you are battling depression and eating disorders as a result of the stalking and somebody goes "Oh just wait it out, it will end eventually" then those comments are exactly the thing that trigger even more depression.

And nope, I don't consider stalking if somebody on an internet board sends you unwanted messages, that's a nuisance, not real stalking, if that person follows you around on the internet obsessively and contacts you repeatedly, or starts doing things that take it outside of that particular message board, that's where the buck stops and where you need to take all the measures you can to protect yourself.



PeonForHer -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 5:58:19 AM)

quote:

... the problem is that to be a stalker you have to be freaking insane, a sane person can't understand how their mind works (in way that is a blessing)...


Yes. I can't find a 'way into' understanding what makes stalkers tick. I hate to fall into the trap of cod-psychologising, but I'd like some semblance of an understanding, all the same.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 6:33:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

... the problem is that to be a stalker you have to be freaking insane, a sane person can't understand how their mind works (in way that is a blessing)...


Yes. I can't find a 'way into' understanding what makes stalkers tick. I hate to fall into the trap of cod-psychologising, but I'd like some semblance of an understanding, all the same.


A therapist told me that is actually the thing that gets the victims, the trying to understand what makes them tick, and from personal experience I have to agree, you are trying to understand a deranged mind, a lot of them are unpredictable. For the life of me, I can't understand how somebody can invest so much negative energy and so much effort into something that doesn't give them anything back, but for them it makes perfect sense. The closest I can come to understand is that maybe they feel empowered by destroying somebody elses life, that it's a power trip? Some of them are driven by hate, others think it's a way of winning the affection of their object of desire. Whatever it is, it's fucked up and the scary thing is that they are often really good at hiding their screwed up mental state and appearing like the nice guy or girl.
I came across some statistics that showed that often a co-worker or acquaintance is doing all that shit and then playing the concerned person.

It's a seriously fucked up mindset, the extend a lot of them go to, most people just don't have that amount of time. They must be getting something out or they wouldn't do it.

For most celebs it's pretty much a "normal" thing, fans who completely have lost their grip on reality, that's why they have people monitoring the fan mails, it's pretty common that the overzealous fan not getting anywhere with declarations of undying love will snap and quite a few go from being a nuisance to a serious threat.

Maybe the stalkers are a little bit like criminals, most of them don't start their criminal career as bank robbers or murderers but work "up" to it.



Wayward5oul -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 10:12:33 AM)

quote:

sweetieDA
Right but, as far as I could tell, this thread was about date and / or cyber stalking, which, as you have already agreed, IS usually the minor end of stalking. If a woman was being stalked by her violent ex-husband, I would give radically different advice.


No, this thread was about stalking, period. LP did say that she and new mod agreed it would be appropriate because there are probably a higher number of stalker types in the kink community, but that was the only statement that could possibly be interpreted as narrowing down the type of stalking. And I doubt that LP intended for this to be viewed so narrowly.

There is nothing in this thread that indicates it is only about date/cyber stalking.

quote:

sweetieDA
Please can you explain how a National Stalking Helpline from 2015 has not managed to 'keep up with' forms and levels of stalking in the last 20 years? Unlike the sources used for your NVADV article, some of which are from 1997, 1998 and 1999 and which reference websites no longer available? Or your victims of crime factsheet, which quotes sources from 1999 and 2002? Or your ABA article, which quotes studies from 1988, 1989, 1991, 1994, 1995, 1998 and 1999? In fact, there is not one fact on there that is older than 2006, yet you're lecturing me on dates?!


The American Bar citation was a mea culpa-I thought it included updated statistics further down the page, but I don’t see them now.

As for the rest, they are as current as what is both available and considered reliable, by multiple accredited sources.

The very first link I provided directed you to a CDC page, and the first two items on that page are:

Prevalence and Characteristics of Sexual Violence, Stalking, and Intimate Partner Violence Victimization— National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, United States, 2011
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/summary_reports.html
Published in 2014, this report describes the most recent data on the public health burden of sexual violence, stalking, and intimate partner violence victimization and the characteristics of victimization. Data in this report summarizes the second year of data collection from the National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey.

The National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey 2010 Summary Report
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_executive_summary-a.pdf
Published in 2011, the NISVS 2010 Summary Report presents data on the national prevalence of IPV, SV, and stalking among women and men in the United States. The 2010 survey is the first year of the survey and provides baseline data that will be used to track IPV, SV, and stalking trends.

(NOTE-the first report shown above is an update of the original, revised to show the most current numbers available since the publication of the original. The original is the second report shown above.)

Sorry, but I am not going to argue with statistics that are supported by
National Coalition Against Domestic Violence
National Center for Victims of Crime
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
The United Nations Bureau of Justice Statistics

All within the last two years.

Let me address the fact that I am using U.S. statistics-I know there are people from all over the world on these boards, but I have read posters on these forums mention several times how the majority are from the U.S. The OP and several others who have addressed this topic in this thread and others are in the U.S. So I thought that would be the most relevant for the people most likely to read this for advice.

But I did initially look for international statistics. There was nothing to be found that was anywhere near reliable. I finally found a statement from the United Nations, buried in a report on women and violence that they released in 2010, that stated what I have quoted below. Their other reports on violence in the U.S. refer back to their Bureau of Justice Statistics, which I have already cited. From the report:

The Friends of the Chair felt that, while stalking is a relevant phenomenon within the
framework of violence against women, they were faced with a variety of inconsistent
definitions, depending on national legal or statistical frameworks. A particular challenge
in terms of defining the concept was the inclusion or exclusion of sexual harassment, as
well as a possible interaction with emotional violence and fear. Thus, the Friends of the
Chair decided that this topic would remain for further work. A comprehensive list of acts
needs to be developed, as well as survey methodology to collect data on this issue. The
Friends of the chair highlighted the need of taking into consideration the different
national legal frameworks.
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/IssuesFocus/Report-of-the-Meeting-of-the-Friends-of-the-Chair-February-2010.pdf


quote:


ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
...I can tell you with complete confidence that our experiences are not the norm.
quote:

sweetieDA
Do you have any statistics on this, or is it just your opinion?


Yes, the from the links that I already provided, which are from a comprehensive research study done over a 12 month period from Jan-Dec of 2011, then published in Sept of 2014.

16.2% (of females) were stalked by a stranger

24.9% (of females) were stalked by an acquaintance. And when you consider that ‘acquaintance’ only means that the stalker was not an ‘intimate partner’ or family member of the victim, that means that if you were to try to narrow it down to just people they met for coffee once or a similar type interaction, then the number would be even lower.

And from that lowered number, if you separate the cases like ours, where the stalkers were easily handled from the cases that escalated, then you end up with an even lower number.

So, yeah, the statistics show that our cases are not the norm.

So all of your advice about ‘not doing anything’ and ‘tell no one’ would only work in a small percentage of cases. And in fact in most cases, it could lead to tragic outcomes.

quote:

sweetieDA
My quote was in response to continued communication with the stalker. It is disingenuous to take it out of context and apply it to questions of data collection, which I made no comment on.


Actually you did. You flatly stated ‘to tell no one’, and went on to list the things they should not do.
quote:

sweetieDA
Most of the time - do nothing. It works.

Guaranteed way to escalate and ensure their continued attention? Keep reacting, getting angry, messaging them, arguing with them, etc. Keep demanding and insisting that they leave you alone. Threaten them, call the police, make it into a personal war, make it clear that you're keeping everything they say, recording every little deed **they will absolutely love it**. As soon as you feel that need to 'win', it's game on for the stalker.
(emphasis mine)

If you had ever dealt with a serious stalker, I doubt you would see trying to stop the situation as a need to ‘win’. This is no game for anyone but the stalker. People die from this shit. And this statement is nothing but victim blaming.

As for your arguing with the numbers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
11% of stalking victims were stalked for 5 years or more.

quote:

sweetieDA
Which means that 89% were stalked for 5 years or less. In fact, 40% of victims were stalked for less than 6 months, and 64% were stalked for less than a year. This is important because it challenges comments made on this thread that 'most' stalking is 7 years or more, which is wildly incorrect and simply fear-mongering.



I stated this because your comments treated all of this very lightly, and made it sound like the high numbers others cited were extreme. But 11% is still alot, and from there you have to work down to 4 years, 3 years, 2 years, etc. And how many of those women that never made it to the 5 years didn’t make it because they were killed by their stalker?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
you were lucky. 1 in 7 stalking victims move as a result of their victimization.

quote:

sweetieDA
Which means that 6 in 7 don't. Which means that I'm not lucky, I'm typical.




No that does not mean that you are typical. It does not mean that the other 6 out of 7 had the same experience as you and had no need to move. What is not typical is coming out of such an experience with no effects.

quote:

sweetieDA
This report then *quotes* the fact that 1 in 7 victims of stalking moved as a result of the stalking, yet it offers no evidence for this assertion. When the victims were asked why they thought the stalking had stopped, 10% answered because they had moved. Yet this is 1 in 10, not 1 in 7, and it does not suggest a cause for the moving.


Not all of the statistics gathered by the research are referenced in the tables. That was a summary. Reading through it it specifically mention other questions that were not referenced in the tables provided. This does not mean that the data is invalid. They point out that in some things people were allowed to choose multiple answers, so percentages may not add up to 100%, they indicate where they did not have enough responses to guarantee a representative date, they address statistical significance, etc. They address all of that.

quote:

sweetieDA
I certainly doubt that 1 in 10 victims of cyber stalking move house as a result.

No one tried to state that they did. That is your questionable interpretation of the data to make a point.

As I said, all of this info is found on the websites of the following organizations, and from there disseminated to the rest of the country. I am pretty comfortable that they know a little bit about what they are talking about.
National Coalition Against Domestic Violence
National Center for Victims of Crime
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
The United Nations Bureau of Justice Statistics

But you go ahead and argue with them all you want.



LadyPact -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 10:20:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetieDA
Right but, as far as I could tell, this thread was about date and / or cyber stalking, which, as you have already agreed, IS usually the minor end of stalking. If a woman was being stalked by her violent ex-husband, I would give radically different advice.

Do you mind if I ask exactly what gave you that impression?

You and I are in two different countries, so we may be working with different material. In the US, a spouse and/or ex-spouse, depending on criteria, automatically categorizing someone as being covered under domestic violence laws. Still currently married/divorce not yet complete, you have a child together, or the person has lived with you within a specific time frame. The time frame varies from state to state. The most any state gives is twelve months but that can also depend on how long they lived with you.


quote:

This fact comes from a report written in 2002. Another fact about the effect on victims comes from a report written in 1998. I would hazard a guess that stalking prior to the internet was more severe and thus had a much greater effect on victims. In this day and age, where virtually all of us can report unwanted emails, and thus meet the definition of stalking, I very much doubt that the majority of us suffer from the same characteristics.

I want to take the opportunity to say something about this. One thing I don't want to see happen here is that contacts from actual stalkers get downplayed just because there's more than one crazy person on the internet. Not saying that other crazy people on the net won't also send revolting messages because we all know how that goes.

In my opinion and experience, most stalkers do not work from a single account. If that were the case, people would block that one screen name and presto! No more trouble on a site like CM again. The problem with this theory is that stalkers just keep creating sock puppets to keep it up. When people know who the stalker is, they can often identify them by screen name, writing style, or the fact that they know some tidbit of information about you. In reverse, some of them will choose screen names that you know about them but most people on a social site wouldn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
Actually, even the links that you provided stress evidence collection from the outset, actions to take to make yourself even less accessible, calling service providers (phone companies and such) for advice about blocking the stalking through those particular means, and contacting police.

I wanted to include this quote for another information aspect. Don't call your cell phone provider. Do it online. All of the major cell carriers in the US have a customer service via chat option. Use that option so you can keep it as a file for your records. Verizon will give you up to ten blocked contacts for free. (Those can be either phone numbers or instant message source for text.) AT&T charges you ten dollars a month but it's worth it. I don't know what Sprint and some of the others do.





Wayward5oul -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 10:40:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul
Actually, even the links that you provided stress evidence collection from the outset, actions to take to make yourself even less accessible, calling service providers (phone companies and such) for advice about blocking the stalking through those particular means, and contacting police.

I wanted to include this quote for another information aspect. Don't call your cell phone provider. Do it online. All of the major cell carriers in the US have a customer service via chat option. Use that option so you can keep it as a file for your records. Verizon will give you up to ten blocked contacts for free. (Those can be either phone numbers or instant message source for text.) AT&T charges you ten dollars a month but it's worth it. I don't know what Sprint and some of the others do.




Thats a good point. I think that if you were to adopt the mindset of' I need to be able to back everything up with physical proof", then you are more likely to think of ways to handle things in that manner, such as online chat rather than voice calls.

The ones who stalked me online for a court case we were in? I still have the records, dating back 10 years, of every text, email, voicemail, message forarded to me by others who they contacted, etc.

I never answered the phone-I always let it go to voicemail. As a result, I have voice recordings that embarrassed them in court.

Never called them-everything was handled through text, instant message, or email. By using certain phone apps, all of my text messages and Yahoo IMs were backed up in two different places, date and time stamped.

There are fantastic phone apps that scan documents through your phone camera. I use Camscanner. Scans the docs, and automatically stores them in a free cloud account as well as on your device. 100% accepted by the Court.

And screen captures-such a simple thing, yet so effective.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 10:52:29 AM)

The problem is that stalkers smell fear, they thrive on it, so if you hesitate contacting authorities because you're worried about the kink connection, it's encouragement for them...

When it comes to evidence, I personally favour print outs, burn stuff on CDs and store on several HD's, I think my PWs are all quite secure but nothing that can't be hacked, when it comes down to it, you really want to be able to have all the evidence.

When it comes down to a serious stalker (not the mild slightly obsessed, a bit of a nuisance kinda stuff) it's not about winning, it's really down to survival.



ResidentSadist -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 10:56:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
My first stalker . . .
I went to the cops . . .
When the cops finally confiscated his computer . . .
I thought it was a once in a life-time experience . . .
There really is no easy way out . . .


Holy shit, what a nightmare. [8|]



zombiegurlsos -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 11:06:13 AM)

so who is the greatest potential for stalking... why the US Government under the so called patriot act



MisterP61 -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 11:15:22 AM)

Let Me tell you what this all looks like from the other side, from the one who has to watch the person they love go through all this shit.

Let's start with the depression shall we. I watched Her go from a person who looked forward every week to two weeks and driving to the "local" (if you consider 98 miles local) munch and sitting down with good friends to break bread. Always laughing, smiling and enjoying the company. Then one day She tells Her submissive that his actions are intolerable, and that he must leave Our home. All of a sudden I became an abuser, someone who used non-violent domestic violence. Let me state here that the lies had no merit, so I wasn't worried about what he did, like call My boss, and the post chaplain. This is where his stalking started. The effect it had on Her was profound. She became increasingly worried that the military career We had build, and She had supported Me in, was going to be destroyed, and no matter how much I told Her that wouldn't happen, the thought was always present in Her mind. The thought of Us losing all the benefits that We have worked so hard to have upon retirement being taken away, ate away at Her.

I want you, the reader, to keep in mind that she told him that She wanted nothing to do with him ever again, and to never contact Her again. So when he did contact the boss and chaplain, he had told them that he had sent her money and perfume, and both people told him, so you are married to another woman and are sending another married woman gifts of a romantic type? he never called them again, but did start blogging (on this very site mind you) that he was going to the local munches and watching her from afar. he got banned from the local group (the one where We were both board members) and threatened to sue them for it, and threatened to show up at the dungeons to cause trouble. It got to the point where She begged Me to leave our vehicles at another persons house so he wouldn't know We were there. Our attendance at munches and dungeons increasingly got less and less. Then We decided to start hosting Our own, and it went awesome in the beginning, but after a while this so called "man" threatened to call the local MP's every time we had one (We never did figure out exactly how he knew, but My guess is he was watching or had a sock account that we didn't know about). The slow erosion of Her happiness sliding into depression was horrific. This once vibrant Woman now felt trapped like an animal.

Now let's talk about the insomnia (which by the way makes the depression even worse). She used to sleep anywhere from six to nine hours on any given night. It slowly over time got to where She would sleep for only five to eight hours and then four to six, and now if She sleeps 4 hours uninterrupted She considers it a full nights sleep. She is constantly exhausted and at times will just flat out pass out due to how tired She is, but only for an hour or so and then wide awake. She asks Me at times to make sure She only sleeps an hour, but knowing that if I do wake Her, there is a 99% chance that She still will not sleep a full night, so I find it very hard to disturb Her sleep and I will take whatever backlash may come of it (rarely happens, because She does know I worry and how protective of Her sleep I am). Oh, have I mentioned that during the worst part of all these happening She slept with her shoes on? People who aren't afraid of what another person might do do not think they might have to flee real fast.

Let's know talk about having to block phone numbers, change email addresses, not setting up voice mail on a phone, and blocking users on instant messenger. After being told to leave Her alone and cease any and all contact, he still constantly sent Her email, called Her phone, and instant messaged Her all day long. We had to pay to block all the phone numbers We knew he had, changed Her email address because he kept depositing money into Her bank account (yes it is a thing, ask your bank. If someone knows the account holders email address, they can deposit money). We changed cell phones in for newer ones and to this day She still has not activated Her voice mail on Her phone. Oh, before I forget, after blocking his phone numbers, he figured out a way to send her texts from IM, so we had to dish out more money to get all email addresses he had as well.

Now lets talk about contacting other family members because you have been blocked from all electronic ways to contact Her. he got onto his Facebook account and found Her son and daughter and harassed them to the point of Her daughter being afraid that he was going to kill Her. Next he decided to get some dirt on Me by contacting My ex wife to find out why our marriage ended (remember, I am an abuser). he didn't take into account that we are not hateful of each other, we just were not compatible and that is that. She called me and asked who this SGT Name Withheld was. She did hang up on him but was worried. The fact that he used his military rank shows the lengths he will go to to harass and stalk.

I need to say here, and I have mentioned this to Her before, I blame Myself for all of this. Why you may ask? Because I am the one who talked Her into giving someone a second chance, because he used to be a decent human being. If I hadn't, maybe things would be different. Then again maybe not. We will never really know. So this is what stalking looks like from the other side of a relationship.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 11:16:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
My first stalker . . .
I went to the cops . . .
When the cops finally confiscated his computer . . .
I thought it was a once in a life-time experience . . .
There really is no easy way out . . .


Holy shit, what a nightmare. [8|]



Yeah, I'm somewhat overly careful now, doesn't mean I don't meet new people and I'm a bit more careful when falling for a sob story...



LadyPact -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 11:28:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zombiegurlsos
so who is the greatest potential for stalking...

The stalker or the stalkee?

That's kind of a difficult question to answer because it all looks different depending on categories and what actually gets reported. That one in forty-five thing for men? I don't really believe that one because just from people I know, it's higher than that.

This isn't going to become some silly thread about government, so I took that part away from the question. If you have a bone to pick about the Patriot Act, that might be better suited for P&R.




Missokyst -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 11:32:54 AM)

Damn, this makes me want to find that guy and beat his face in. I am not a violent person by nature, but when I know someone has taken bullying to the extreme it hits all my protection cues.
How horrific!
Sometimes crazy cannot be fixed.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 11:39:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zombiegurlsos

so who is the greatest potential for stalking... why the US Government under the so called patriot act



You are at the wrong time at the wrong place, you talk to the wrong person... F*** if we knew we would have avoided, if we could we'd share the secret because we don't wish it on anybody else.



MisterP61 -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 11:40:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Damn, this makes me want to find that guy and beat his face in. I am not a violent person by nature, but when I know someone has taken bullying to the extreme it hits all my protection cues.
How horrific!
Sometimes crazy cannot be fixed.

See Missokyst, I don't wish harm to the person. It wouldn't solve a thing and I wouldn't feel better for it. I gave the view from My side so people will see there is not just the stalkee who suffers. It affects everyone who cares for the person.



LadyConstanze -> RE: Stalking in kink land (11/14/2015 11:44:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MisterP61


quote:

ORIGINAL: Missokyst

Damn, this makes me want to find that guy and beat his face in. I am not a violent person by nature, but when I know someone has taken bullying to the extreme it hits all my protection cues.
How horrific!
Sometimes crazy cannot be fixed.

See Missokyst, I don't wish harm to the person. It wouldn't solve a thing and I wouldn't feel better for it. I gave the view from My side so people will see there is not just the stalkee who suffers. It affects everyone who cares for the person.


You are a better person than I am! I wish I was religious so I could imagine them in all the different circles of hell Dante portrait...



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