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RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 6:36:35 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: Greta75

In my country, private health insurance is good enough. And it's cheaper than Obama care.

You claim to be a girl from singapore but your syntax,lexicon and diction are of an adolescent boy in the usa.

So it cost me only about what? $600 per annum,

You claim to live there and pay the insurance but you don't know how much???

I don't know how our government make this happen,

We all wonder why you are ignorant of how things work in the country you claim to live in.

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/27/2015 6:45:39 AM >

(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 21

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 6:43:04 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: bounty44

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger
...All I'm really looking for is a more balanced view of other places that seem to treat their citizens better than the U.S does.

I may be reading this too narrowly,

Perhaps you could get a grown up or one of the teachers at school to read it to you and explane the big words.

but when I do, (since you used the word "citizens" and refer to the country as an entity, which to me given the context here, implies the government) the question arises as to why/how its the governments job to involve itself in healthcare,

Why do you presume to make the rules for other countries?

and why/how, in terms of "treat", its supposed to do anything other than leave you alone, with minimal interference, so you can be free to pursue a life according to your own makings?

Where does or has that ever happened on this planet?
Why do you only open your mouth to change feet?

(in reply to bounty44)

Post #: 22

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 6:52:01 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
In my country, private health insurance is good enough. And it's cheaper than Obama care.

In my country, it's free and better than Obama care.
Which of course, makes it waay cheaper than any insurance based private system.

Did I mention it was free??

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
So it cost me only about what? $600 per annum, for my age group, for single bedder ward, in any private hospital of my choice and everything is covered AS CHARGED! It means, I pay zero and everything is paid for. They bill the insurer direct and it's cashless hassle free experience for me. And all I need is one minor surgery. Like an appendix removal surgery could easily cost $18,000. So $600 bux! Great! Hell, even my private accident plan, I pay $120 per annum for it. I cut my leg, went to the most expensive private hospital, just to get a few stitches cost me $400 and just to come back to change dressing cost me $120 each time. So everything added up to about $1000+, and I pay only $120 per year, super happy.

I pay nothing. Zilch. Nada. Fuck all. A big fat zero.

ETA: If I want to pay for healthcare insurance, there's a very good chance that I'd get treated in the same hospital and by the same doctors/specialists/nurses than those who came there via the social healthcare system.
There's no real advantage to paying for medical insurance unless it's for something not covered by our NHS system (though I might get a private side-room as opposed to being in a 4-man ward).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
No queue or waiting in line, I was attended to immediately. If I didn't get this insurance and went to the government hospital to get stitch up, as it's filled with people going for their subsidized pricing, I could be waiting for 4 hours for my turn.

For most minor stuff, I can get that done at my GP surgery, instantly.
It doesn't cost me anything to get stitched up, bandaged, plastered.... whatever is necessary for my health.
Oh, and did I mention it was free?? Doesn't cost me a bean.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I don't know how our government make this happen, but they regulate insurance industry, they also regulate private medical pricing. Quite a few medical professionals in the private sector has been convicted and lost their practicing license for over-charging. The government has a recommended pricing list also for us consumers to look at to know if we are being over-charged. It's very easy for medical industry to be unscrupulous and overly inflate charges if the government does not step in and regulate. I think this is what is happening in the US and that's why obama care is so damn expensive, because if the medical industry is over-inflating their prices, then insurance will cost a bomb. I think Hillary herself is acknowledging the problem about why are medicine cheaper in Canada, and it should be the same price. That was one issue she brought up on tackling to improve Obama care premiums.

We don't need to look at any pricing lists - it's all free.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
So then we reach a balance where private insurance is affordable, we can get the best care, the best doctors, the best everything. I don't understand why some people in my country refuse to buy private insurance, but our private insurance plans are cheap and good. And for that amount of money, you get the best care, no waiting time, just like express service, it's worth paying for.

That would be your somewhat biased opinion seeing as you know no other system to make a realistic comparison.

I can choose my doctor, the hospital, the dentist - all for free.
And over here, an awful lot of NHS hospitals are better staffed and better equipped than private ones.
Did I mention that it is free here??

We don't even have to pay for ambulances - even if that is an Air Ambulance!!

< Message edited by freedomdwarf1 -- 11/27/2015 7:11:01 AM >

_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”

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(in reply to Greta75)

Post #: 23

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 7:54:46 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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There are a particular class of morons who would rather pay out the ass than get it for free...it seems to fulfill their need to look down their noses and feel dumber than dawgshit

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 24

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 9:01:17 AM

eulero83

Posts: 1470
Joined: 11/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger
...All I'm really looking for is a more balanced view of other places that seem to treat their citizens better than the U.S does.

I may be reading this too narrowly, but when I do, (since you used the word "citizens" and refer to the country as an entity, which to me given the context here, implies the government)

last time I checked the USA claimed to be a democracy, in that case the governament is a direct expression of the people so the governament is the country and it's citizens.

quote:

the question arises as to why/how its the governments job to involve itself in healthcare, and why/how, in terms of "treat", its supposed to do anything other than leave you alone, with minimal interference, so you can be free to pursue a life according to your own makings?

There are some problems with the logi behind this:
first a medical condition can be rarely considered as someone's own makings, usually it just happens so it's actually a system providing a safenet that allows you to pursue a life according to your own makings;
second no one forced me to go to the doctor this morning so this idea that treatment is an imposition seems quite strange;
third the only people that would be limitated are those that would take advantage of a condition to profit, it's not different from a robbery, one of the two parts is not free to choose but has to do it under a serious threat, so for the same reasons crime law punishes robberies and civil law declare void certain contracts;

I guess your question is more "why do I have to pay for others too?" well strange enought it's to keep a free market and avoid a trust gets formed. For my expereince basic services work much worse if the private has not a publilc antagonist that sets a standard.

< Message edited by eulero83 -- 11/27/2015 9:03:16 AM >

(in reply to bounty44)

Post #: 25

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 9:08:49 AM

Lucylastic

Posts: 40310
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44
What the NHS is good at is providing cost-efficient care. It spends $3,405 per person per annum, less than half America's outlay of $8,508. Alas, that does not mean the NHS is financially secure: a £2 billion ($3.4 billion) shortfall looms from 2015 and NHS England is struggling to implement £20 billion in savings. And some outcomes for serious conditions do not commend the English model, which does worse on serious cancer treatment than Canada, Australia and Sweden, according to data from the King’s Fund, a health-care think-tank based in London. American women have higher survival rates for breast cancer. Mortality rates following strokes also let down the English system.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/06/economist-explains-16

This was brought up last year when someone pointed out that..
Cancer is one of those diseases that if caught in time, can end up having a happy result of living.
Now when so many of your citizens cannot even afford to go to the doctor for tests when they are ill, despite medicaid/medicare/obamacare because so many fall thru the cracks, they dont get to the docs for THEIR cancer treatment because its far too fucking late. THe economist happily ignores the deaths by cancer that had gone untreated or only semi treated.
There is no one to decide they can cut off your treatment outside of your doctor. unlike in the US.
Yes you may survive cancer, if you have the money to get the right cure at the right time.

PS this is from the OECD
Health status and risk factors In 2011 (latest year available), life expectancy in the United States stood at 78.7 years, 1 ½ year less than the OECD average of 80.2 years. While life expectancy in the United States has increased by two years since 2000, this was less than the three year gain registered across OECD countries. This has widened the gap. The gap between the United States and leading countries has also widened. For example, the life expectancy for U.S. men in 2011 was more than 4 years shorter than in Switzerland (up from 3 years in 2000); for U.S. women, it was more than 5 years shorter than in Japan (fairly stable compared with 2000). The slower progress in life expectancy in the United States is due to gaps in health insurance coverage and proper primary care, poorer health-related behaviours and poor living conditions for a significant proportion of the U.S. population. The United States has achieved remarkable progress in reducing the proportion of adults who smoke tobacco, with the rate of daily smokers coming down from 19% in 2000 to 14% in 2012. This is the lowest rate among OECD countries after Mexico, Sweden and Iceland. At the same time, obesity rates among adults in the United States have increased greatly to reach 35.3% in 2012, up from 30.9% in 2000 (based on actual measures of height and weight). This is the highest rate among OECD countries. As is the case in several other countries, the obesity rate in the United States tends to be higher among disadvantaged socio-economic groups, especially in women. Mortality from diseases including cardiovascular diseases and many cancers increases progressively once people become obese

http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/Briefing-Note-UNITED-STATES-2014.pdf.

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 11/27/2015 9:11:12 AM >

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(in reply to bounty44)

Post #: 26

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 12:58:23 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: FelineRanger

Some background first. Apologies because many disparate elements went into this question and I'm just trying to organize them coherently.

I only recently saw Michael Moore's Sicko and knew from personal experience the shortcomings of the American medical industry, which is run by bean counters instead of doctors and their patients. Moore presents the Canadian system, among others, as far superior to the American. But I have recently been chatting with someone in Toronto who contradicted some of Moore's claims with her own experiences. We also got into some detail about Canadian politics, which are apparently just as corrupt as American.

I have also done time in prison and have nothing good to say about the prison system here because it is abusive instead of rehabilitative. I have read that the Scandinavian countries, and the rest of the EU to varying degrees, have greater measures in place to protect people. Call it welfare if you like, but what I have read says that their governments provide far better for those who can't provide for themselves. Universal health care would have enabled me to avoid the bad decisions that led to my offense. Even if I had gone to prison in those countries, what I read says I would have experienced a truly rehabilitative atmosphere instead of being in more danger from the corrections officers than from other inmates.

But my conversation with the person in Toronto has me rethinking those "greener pastures" and I have two questions. First, are those reports about greater government generosity accurate? Second, what's the trade off besides much higher taxes? Are those countries, for example, more restrictive toward certain activities that don't get much notice in the States? Thanks.

On the two points you mention:

1) Health

2) Jail

Health. Read the accounts of Americans who live here and they pretty much unanimously state that our healthcare system is much better value for money than your version. But, you'd have to read them for yourself.

Jail. Our system is a shambles. You really do not want to copy us on this one. Us being England. It is a complete failure and criminals are not serving due time and punishment for their crimes.

Your jail system is in shambles? well let me tell you that its a lot better than the US system.. here they have a system that if you are arrested and thrown in jail, you need to post bail to get out while waiting for your trial, and for someone that is poor that means sitting in jail for a long time.. in which case you have lost your job and if you had health care with your job you have lost that too, if you rent you are likely now homeless and so on.. this system kicks people when they are down and then keeps kicking them.. not to mention that if you are black or hispanic you have a greater chance of running into a racist cop just itching to jail you, beat you or possibly shoot you.. And here they execute people, some that are later found to be innocent.. The justice system here is really fucked up.. overcrowding cuz about 25% in jail are there for drug offenses.. plus here its Prisons for Profits so they throw undocumented immigrants in jail too (even tho they call it "detention").. more people in jail, more money for the corps that profit off them.. Here you dont want to get into the "system" cuz you might never get out.. some states have the most horrific, long punishment for relatively minor offenses.. and so on.. When you take a good look at this system, its fn scary.. It is not one to be emulated or praised..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDVmldTurqk John Oliver on Mandatory Minimums
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS5mwymTIJU John Oliver on Bail

_____________________________

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 27

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 2:54:05 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

The justice system here is really fucked up.. overcrowding cuz about 25% in jail are there for drug offenses..

Partially true. while about 25% of the people in jail are there on drug charges more than 50% in prison are there on drug charges making the total over 70% of the people incarcerated in the usa are there for drug charges.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs#sthash.e8LWPZxj.dpbs

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 11/27/2015 2:55:09 PM >

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 28

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 5:06:37 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The United States is ranked bottom of the industrialised nations for a very good reason.

bottom in terms of what?

quote:

You spend more than others for a service well below standard.

you really cant say stuff like this without providing not just evidence, but also evidence that takes into account different value systems.

quote:

You've led yourselves down a path where you believe that private enterprise is the holy grail and just simply must be the optimum position.

there is very little "private" about healthcare here. the majority of transactions are medicare, Medicaid and outside of that, the government has got its nose in the insurance companies business.

quote:

Except on average you pay 3,500 of the Queen's Sterling more than your average Briton and in return receive a much worse service.

again, evidence? and not so much from a cost perspective, but rather from a care one.

and then consider this (apart from that cost is not an indicator at all of quality):

quote:

What the NHS is good at is providing cost-efficient care. It spends $3,405 per person per annum, less than half America's outlay of $8,508. Alas, that does not mean the NHS is financially secure: a £2 billion ($3.4 billion) shortfall looms from 2015 and NHS England is struggling to implement £20 billion in savings. And some outcomes for serious conditions do not commend the English model, which does worse on serious cancer treatment than Canada, Australia and Sweden, according to data from the King’s Fund, a health-care think-tank based in London. American women have higher survival rates for breast cancer. Mortality rates following strokes also let down the English system.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/06/economist-explains-16

quote:

An honest, curious person would start investigating this to understand why.

I don't disagree but your post treated a very complex and many layered issue almost simplistically. so I would say the same in response to you, especially, as on the whole in general, the free market and competition provides the best services in the most efficient manor. why/how is (if it is) healthcare an exception to that general rule?

and none of that takes into account the doctor shortages that the UK (and here too in part thanks to obamacare) is facing.

Poor old bounty, always in denial.

Here is a link for you, Its by some.....errr errr errrr Americans. (Excuse the sound of laughter)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/uks-healthcare-ranked-the-best-out-of-11-western-countries-with-us-coming-last-9542833.html

(in reply to bounty44)

Post #: 29

RE: Question for the international members - 11/27/2015 7:37:43 PM

Wayward5oul

Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
And is anyone forcing you to work in Ontario? You can always go back to the US and enjoy the health care nightmare there..

Wait, aren't you Canadian? Living in Texas? One who regularly badmouths US practices?

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 30

RE: Question for the international members - 11/28/2015 3:42:01 AM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

ORIGINAL: tj444
And is anyone forcing you to work in Ontario? You can always go back to the US and enjoy the health care nightmare there..

Wait, aren't you Canadian? Living in Texas? One who regularly badmouths US practices?

Well I am a texan living in california who regularly badmouths usa policies I disagree with.

(in reply to Wayward5oul)

Post #: 31

RE: Question for the international members - 11/28/2015 7:51:04 AM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: MercTech

U.S. Citizen working in Ontario.

In theory the Canadian health care system sounds wonderful. But, what do you do when every primary care provider withing 200 kilometers says, "we are quota full of patients, sorry"

Dunno. But in England not only do you have access to any GP practice, you have a choice.

Your ideological standpoint is playing tricks with your brain. It's essentially forcing you down a path where you believe, without evidence, that any public system must be inefficient in some way, such as "full quotas" and the like.

Don't believe it, mate.

The United States is ranked bottom of the industrialised nations for a very good reason.

You spend more than others for a service well below standard.

You've led yourselves down a path where you believe that private enterprise is the holy grail and just simply must be the optimum position.

Except on average you pay 3,500 of the Queen's Sterling more than your average Briton and in return receive a much worse service.

An honest, curious person would start investigating this to understand why.

Actually, while I think the idea of the NHS is fabulous and I do support a health care system that gives everybody access to medical care, thanks to fund cutting ever since Maggie, the NHS is more of a health risk, GPs are actively encouraged to not send people to specialists, additionally you play the post code lottery. Most of my experiences with the NHS are spectacularly disastrous, starting from a broken ankle where the doc in the orthopaedic clinic tries to convince me that me massively swollen ankle is not fractured, despite the guys in the ER showing me the fracture. Turned out he looked at the wrong x-ray, a year earlier I had only twisted the left ankle, he was looking at that picture.
Years of "Hey, there is something wrong with me, I get those horrible cramps, bloatings and skin rashes, I curl up in a ball and can't do anything..." They did a gall scan said "No stones, must be psychosomatic, would you like some antidepressants and pain killers?" Turned out I'm gluten intolerant and have Lupus, related to a wrongly medicated thyroid...

There are some amazing docs but they are so restricted by the system and how it has been stripped, they finally figured out (in the US) that I have a genetic problem, I can't metabolize levo, I can't really absorb sufficient vitamin D and B12, so I need to take NDT (the UK decides levo - the synthetic med is the only thing available even for people with Hashimoto, however with ERFA I'm super fine and healthy, it's natural I can absorb it), I need to substitute D and B12, which the GPs poopoo as a "new fad" the endo goes "Substitute yourself, I can't tell you that officially but you need it! Our hands are tied..."
US specialist told me that one auto-immune issue tends to attract others, so I need to keep an eye on the antibodies as they will attack my own immune system and I might end up being diabetic. I go to my GP with the report (Sinai Cedars professor), GP states he doesn't agree with any of it, my TSH level is fine, I go "Yeah but they did a complete thyroid panel, look, on levo my body only makes reverse T3, not the T3 my body needs..." GP thinks it doesn't matter, endo goes "Great, but I can't even order the tests and the full panel, the lab will not do it, I'm happy to use them and give you an international prescription but you will need to pay for it privately...." I'm not complaining about the £80 it costs me per month, I can afford it and I'm willing to afford it, my health is worth more than going for a meal, what upsets me is that they don't do the tests, because long term not treating that costs them a lot more than the meds would. As long as I'm healthy, I can work and pay into the system, not take out and burden it even more.

I had a doc who barely spoke English (more like Engrish) chasing me around the ER with a penicillin injection, all my files state I'm highly allergic (I stop breathing, serious shock), I kept yelling I am allergic to penicillin, he kept repeating "Good penicillin, make you well, stop now...."

Wherever else you go in Europe, hospitals do look dramatically different, yes, compared to other countries the NHS is very cheap, personally I would gladly pay more and have a better functioning health service. I'm honestly not worried about the small percentage of people abusing the welfare system, that's a drop in the bucket, I'm more worried about the tax evasion they let big companies get away with, because that would easily pay for a lot of health care and social services.
I'm angry about the bedroom tax, because it hits the people who need it, while in London tons of houses are empty, they are "investments", if you can afford prime property in one of the most expensive places on the planet and leave it empty, you can afford to pay tax for that.

The SK9 area is one of the richest outside of London, my dogs can't piss without splattering an Austin Marting, Bentley or Jag, yet there are little old ladies sitting in their tiny bedsits, wearing a ton of sweaters because they can't afford to switch the heating on. There's something fucking wrong with that picture. And you got Mr Hunt (personally I think the H should be replaced with a C) telling us all about austerity and wanting to strip more of the NHS, funny enough most of his croonies have serious investment in private health care... Basically what is happening with the UK is that they are trying to force people to go private by stripping the NHS and turning health care into a private system.

From personal experience, the US has the finest health care on the planet - if you can afford it, which is the crux of the matter, because most US citizens can't. If you need any reason why the US system is bad - Dick Cheney heart transplant....

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(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 32

RE: Question for the international members - 11/28/2015 11:04:41 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

Sorry you had a bad experience with our NHS LC but I can't agree with it.
This isn't the first time you've totally trashed our NHS like a leper and I think it's dead wrong.

Personally, and many that I know as well as my family have had nothing but really excellent service and results from it.
I've had better service from our NHS than anything I had in the US when I lived there (and fortunately, I was with someone who picked up the tab that I couldn't have afforded).

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(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 33

RE: Question for the international members - 11/28/2015 12:11:39 PM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Sorry you had a bad experience with our NHS LC but I can't agree with it.
This isn't the first time you've totally trashed our NHS like a leper and I think it's dead wrong.

Personally, and many that I know as well as my family have had nothing but really excellent service and results from it.
I've had better service from our NHS than anything I had in the US when I lived there (and fortunately, I was with someone who picked up the tab that I couldn't have afforded).

You might have missed the part where I said I support the system totally and I put the blame on the feet of the politicians who stripped the system. As for the US, it depends very much on where you go and which doctors you see, trust me the top clinics are very very different from going to any doctor. I have lived all over the world, the NHS doesn't cut it, not due to lack of the people working in it.

You also mentioned that the NHS is free, which is actually blatantly incorrect, a share of my income goes to the NHS, about £400 every month, I'm pretty sure a share of your income goes into it, it's not free because doctors, nurses and hospitals don't run on not getting paid.

If you do think it's dead wrong or not has little bearing on the fact that if I would have relied on the NHS, I simply wouldn't be there and wouldn't pay into it or pay my tax, unchecked lupus can turn very very nasty, check up thyroid treatment in the NHS, tons of people are put on antidepressants when in fact it's their thyroid but hey, levo is so cheap, the pharma industry makes it available for less than £1 a month, if it doesn't work you get a ton of other issues, there's a steady supply of customers there. The fact that a doc wanted to inject me with something I'm highly allergic and would just straight keel over as my windpipe swells up is a bit worrying. I had different advise from the same docs, depending on the fact if I saw them as an NHS patient or a private patient, as a private patient they can let you have meds that do help, meds the NHS thinks are too expensive. You might have heard that a lot of people can't metabolize generics due to the fillers, however the NHS decided generics are just as good...

There is a massive mismanagement there in short term savings which lead to long term costs, talk to any doctor. Have a look at the scales the NHS seems as "within range" - you can be deficient almost everywhere else in the world, in the UK you are still "within range".

I think the NHS needs much more funds to be able to work as it should, it's simply not up to scratch. You know I'm able to get medical help somewhere else but it makes me angry that others can't, I'm not that unique a lot of others have the same condition and are left out cold and it really goes against my principles. And if I hear Hunt claim that people come for medical tourism to the UK (and he really tampered with that to a great deal, I'm surprised that him fiddling with the numbers didn't cause a media outrage), I got to wonder from where they come, because trust me, anywhere else in Europe you get better medical service. There is a reason that the UK leads the MRSA problem in Europe (apart from Greece) with about twice the cases of any other country, it seriously was a shock to me that doctors don't wash their hands before examining you, something that seems standard everywhere else. There is something really weird going on here, when I had a skin condition (related to auto-immune issues) and I went to see the GP, I mentioned it's worst on my chest, he acted weird and asked me if it is anywhere else "less compromising" - I mean FFS, he is a MEDICAL DOCTOR, I'm sure he has seen breasts before. So he looks at my neck where it's a lot less severe and says "It could be fungal, we try that... Do you go to sunbeds a lot?" I told him I do not go to sunbeds, he went "Oh try it anyway..." I suggested a dermatologist, reply "We don't have the funds..." It ended with me getting on a plane and it was a lupus outbreak, anti-fungal cream would have done ZILCH, nothing... If you don't keep lupus in check it will attack your internal organs, that is a lot of fun...

And as I said, I am not living in a poor area, Alderly is quite affluent, I might make the mistake of going to a regular GP first, but then I do think everybody should get the same health care. My other half thought the UK system is good, before he was exposed to other health systems and he was just stunned.

In case you have an accident, the NHS works fine and I like the fact that you don't have to be rich to get medical help, however it has declined so much, I don't want to decline it any further, I'm a massive supporter of Jeremy Corbyn and I hope he gets it back on track to what it was supposed to be. As I said, if they increase the amount the NHS gets, I'm happy to pay that, I don't grudge them a single penny, I think most people in the NHS are underpaid (and that is the reason why we lose nurses left right and center because they go to other countries), I'm pissed off about the tax evasion of big corporations (and please do not forget all the football players living down the road), the US is actually turning around with the affordable care act, while the UK is trying Reaganomics and the trickle down that never worked. In some odd way it seems to flip flop. I believe we do need a healthy middle class, not an upper and lower class.

Look, there is something fucking wrong with the system if my dog can get an MRI within 3 days but a human has to wait 6 to 8 weeks, simply because they can't pay privately for it. An MRI for a large dog costs you £3K, a chunk of that is sedation, you don't need to sedate a human for an MRI. My main expense, I think more than our mortgage is vets, I hang around with enough medical doctors to know that vets can charge more (private), so why the waiting lists? Why wait until something is chronic and the person can't work anymore? That is a much bigger burden on the system.

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(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 34

RE: Question for the international members - 11/28/2015 10:51:39 PM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

[T]he free market and competition provides the best services in the most efficient manor. why/how is (if it is) healthcare an exception to that general rule?

One could easily challenge the myth that the "free market and competition provides the best services in the most efficient manor". There are many sectors of human endeavour that contradict this claim. For example, security and national defence, advanced research and education. Healthcare is one of the more obvious examples. Why?

The aims of healthcare are not quantifiable in dollar terms. The aim of healthcare is to treat disease, ensure and promote health and save lives. Private enterprise works best when it produces a single commodity for sale at a profit to those who want it. In the healthcare sector, it is simply impossible to standardise costs in the manner private enterprise needs. Two people suffering the same illness may require radically different treatment regimes and periods - to use an extreme example an infant, a fit adult and an old age pensioner each suffering pneumonia would all require radically different treatments and recovery times.

Healthcare costs are such that the user pays principle inherent in capitalism would mean that in many cases those in need of treatment would go without because they are unable to afford it - the US system results in tens of thousands of Americans dying un-necessary and premature deaths annually because they don't have adequate healthcare coverage. It makes far more sense to spread the costs over a large group of consumers through some version of a single payer scheme.

But the most important difference is this: The aim of healthcare providers is to cure illness, promote health and save lives. The aim of a private enterprise is to make a profit. In practice it proves impossible to reconcile these differing goals much of the time. A good healthcare system will always put the patients' best interests above the profit imperative.

Saving lives is always more important than saving dollars.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/28/2015 10:54:45 PM >

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(in reply to bounty44)

Post #: 35

RE: Question for the international members - 11/30/2015 8:15:42 AM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
And is anyone forcing you to work in Ontario? You can always go back to the US and enjoy the health care nightmare there..

Wait, aren't you Canadian? Living in Texas? One who regularly badmouths US practices?

Oh I badmouth Canadian practices too but the US gives me sooooo much more to badmouth...

I grew up in the sticks in Alberta so when you live away from the big cities you gotta make compromises on a lot of things.. seems that revelation should be common sense to most people..

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(in reply to Wayward5oul)

Post #: 36

RE: Question for the international members - 11/30/2015 9:15:58 AM

freedomdwarf1

Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline

I agree that there are many things needed to make our NHS what it should be.
But it does seem that you are tarring the whole NHS system based on one or two very bad personal experiences with a couple of doctors.

But I have to take issue with this -

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
Look, there is something fucking wrong with the system if my dog can get an MRI within 3 days but a human has to wait 6 to 8 weeks, simply because they can't pay privately for it. An MRI for a large dog costs you £3K, a chunk of that is sedation, you don't need to sedate a human for an MRI. My main expense, I think more than our mortgage is vets, I hang around with enough medical doctors to know that vets can charge more (private), so why the waiting lists? Why wait until something is chronic and the person can't work anymore? That is a much bigger burden on the system.

Where I live, I'd have to book an MRI with my vet and unless it's a real medical emergency, it takes about 3-4 weeks.
If I paid for and booked a human MRI, I'd have to travel for more than a couple of hours to get it done because NONE of the private hospitals round here have any MRI facilities - they use the ones in the NHS hospitals.... to save costs!!
btw: when I needed an MRI, I waited 3 days. No more.
My OH only waited a week for a non-urgent neuro-scan in a London hospital.

And for me (and many others), the NHS system is completely and utterly free.
If you were paying about £400 a month, you were earning a shit-ton of money (c£40k+) which is well above the average UK salary/wages.

Your bad experiences seem to be in the minority rather than the norm and I think it's very bad of you to tar the whole system as bad for the sake of your relatively bad experiences.
All I can say is where you were and where you registered had some some pretty shit doctors.
Did you not think to register elsewhere??
I've lived all over the UK and always managed to find very good doctors and never had a complaint anywhere.
And compared to where I've been in the US (NC and FL), where the stuffy and sterile reception areas akin to a lawyers office were not a patch on my UK experiences, the doctors were not as good and charged $50 a pop just to walk in the office!!

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(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 37

RE: Question for the international members - 11/30/2015 2:14:16 PM

tj444

Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The justice system here is really fucked up.. overcrowding cuz about 25% in jail are there for drug offenses..

Partially true. while about 25% of the people in jail are there on drug charges more than 50% in prison are there on drug charges making the total over 70% of the people incarcerated in the usa are there for drug charges.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Prisons_and_Drugs#sthash.e8LWPZxj.dpbs

So that makes it 3 times as fucked up as I thought it was..

On one of John Oliver's vids on youtube (not sure which one), there is a clip of a ex-con talking about how he has to pay ($80 I think) to see his probation officer.. Of course if he doesnt see his probation officer he goes back to jail for not seeing him, so to avoid going to jail, he ends up having to sell drugs to get the money to pay to see his probation officer.. He has to commit a crime to stay outta jail.. if thats not seriously fucked up, I dont know what is...

For those that say for him to "get a job".. its extremely hard to get a job (and housing) as an ex-con, let alone a decent paying job that covers the basics... its considerably harder for black ex-cons.. and of those that do hire ex-cons, you can bet that 99% of those are doing that to take advantage of them due to ex-cons not having other options.. its another version of capitalism at work in the same vein as those that hire undocumented immigrants..

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Post #: 38

RE: Question for the international members - 12/2/2015 1:02:18 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The United States is ranked bottom of the industrialised nations for a very good reason.

bottom in terms of what?

quote:

You spend more than others for a service well below standard.

you really cant say stuff like this without providing not just evidence, but also evidence that takes into account different value systems.

quote:

You've led yourselves down a path where you believe that private enterprise is the holy grail and just simply must be the optimum position.

there is very little "private" about healthcare here. the majority of transactions are medicare, Medicaid and outside of that, the government has got its nose in the insurance companies business.

quote:

Except on average you pay 3,500 of the Queen's Sterling more than your average Briton and in return receive a much worse service.

again, evidence? and not so much from a cost perspective, but rather from a care one.

and then consider this (apart from that cost is not an indicator at all of quality):

quote:

What the NHS is good at is providing cost-efficient care. It spends $3,405 per person per annum, less than half America's outlay of $8,508. Alas, that does not mean the NHS is financially secure: a £2 billion ($3.4 billion) shortfall looms from 2015 and NHS England is struggling to implement £20 billion in savings. And some outcomes for serious conditions do not commend the English model, which does worse on serious cancer treatment than Canada, Australia and Sweden, according to data from the King’s Fund, a health-care think-tank based in London. American women have higher survival rates for breast cancer. Mortality rates following strokes also let down the English system.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2014/06/economist-explains-16

quote:

An honest, curious person would start investigating this to understand why.

I don't disagree but your post treated a very complex and many layered issue almost simplistically. so I would say the same in response to you, especially, as on the whole in general, the free market and competition provides the best services in the most efficient manor. why/how is (if it is) healthcare an exception to that general rule?

and none of that takes into account the doctor shortages that the UK (and here too in part thanks to obamacare) is facing.

Evidence?

It's there for you to read on the internet.

It ain't for me to read and then post links for you.

What am I? Your knowledge chauffeur?

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 39

RE: Question for the international members - 12/2/2015 1:27:05 PM

NorthernGent

Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

There's a lot to be said for socialized healthcare.
The cost (of lack of it) to the patient is one good thing.

Our healthcare system works at least in part because there are limited public funds to manage the system.

So, for example, we have posters in all doctors' surgeries basically saying: "look mate, you only have a cold, go home and have a cup of tea; you're not really unwell".

That wouldn't happen in a country such as the United States as every person is a customer and a money making opportunity.

That attitude is: "glad you've turned up, please sit down and we'll attend to you; by the way you're being charged for this seat - take as long as you need as it all adds to the bill".

There is a huge misconception that the private sector must be efficient. Any reasonable person who has worked many years in the private sector would laugh his cock off at this sentiment.

Due to a multitude of reasons, the private sector is not inherently efficient. It's merely a sentiment knocked together by someone in age where the world was opening up and so to take advantage of these opportunities it was helpful to propose the notion that private enterprise is some all knowing and beneficial source of power.

What is really instructive about human beings is that this notion has stuck after all of these years, after everything we have seen.

Just goes to show how human beings are so taken by theory, other people's theories, and not so rational as is often assumed.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)

Post #: 40

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