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aged wine - 11/30/2015 9:49:18 PM   
peppermint


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From: Montana
Status: offline 		The house sitter found some old bottles of wine in the basement. It's an unheated space. It's very dark in there. Hardly anyone ever goes in there. However, the house sitter decided to clean it out to get to a neat tool bench thingy. Anyway, he found a bottle of home made elderberry wine that is dated 1941. Gary is excited about that because it's the year he was born. That might be why his parents saved that wine for all those years. They didn't even move into the house until 1951. Anyway, is there any chance that wine is still good? We did find some wine in the old cistern from the 1960s that was still okay. We're hoping to check it out when we get home.

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RE: aged wine - 11/30/2015 11:26:18 PM   
Greta75


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Status: offline 		You won't know till you try!

If it was kept in a cool and dark condition, there is a good chance it might still be drinkable. But depending on the quality as well.

The oldest wine I ever drank was 1949! Damn 1941 is amazing!

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 4:05:35 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		According to most sites I've read, for fruit wines it's a max of 5-10 years.

Quote from Winemakingtalk Forum: Fruit wines will not last as long as red wines. I would say 3-4 years TOPS! Fruit wines are low in alcohol and do not have the body of a big red.
fruit wines are made for early drinking.

And from that forum:
quote:

Post#4
A few months ago I had to empty and move a storage rack (as part of a general rearrangement of that room).

When I moved the rack away from the wall, I was surprised to find lying on the floor behind it a 375-ml bottle of pear wine that I bottled in 2004. Obviously, the bottle had somehow slipped out of a lower level of the rack and fallen to the floor without breaking and without being noticed.

The wine looked perfectly clear, the cork was solid, no evidence of seeping. I finally could stand it no longer and pulled the cork -- pure vinegar!


So... beware of what you might find in the bottle.
Personally, I think it was kept for prosperity rather than drinkability; I don't think it'll be drinkable.


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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 5:43:44 AM   
DickSteel


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From: Man of Mystery & Intrigue
Status: offline 		I thought all grapes were fruit? How do you make a wine that isn't made from fruit? Is there veggie wine?

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 6:00:53 AM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DickSteel

I thought all grapes were fruit? How do you make a wine that isn't made from fruit? Is there veggie wine?



The Italian side of the family has some vineyards and my expertise is more the sampling than the making, but they have some some really old stuff, for example when a child is born, the best vintage of the year is bottled and buried, at significant events in the person's life some of the "birth wine" is opened and consumed (1st communion, coming of age, marriage, a child... and even at the funeral there is usually some of that wine drank as a toast to the person's life - so far none of it was vinegar).

I think fine wines keep almost forever, if they are bottled and stored right (laying down and not standing upright) and cork doesn't corrode, but from my understanding (could be wrong there) it depends on the grape and the tannins, however the older wines do tend to have more sediments in them and you need to decant them.

No idea about wines that are made from anything other than grapes, but I think the alcohol content might play a massive part in how well it keeps and also how tightly the bottle was sealed.

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 6:38:13 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Unless peppermint's in-laws made this wine with such expertise that the elderberry wine could pass for a "fine wine", we aren't talking in the same league here.
So I'll stick to my previous post - unlikely to be drinkable.... unfortunately.

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 7:08:54 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		As I said, I don't know about fruit wines, but if you're familiar with the Tuscany region of Italy (and a few other areas), wine making is a pretty normal hobby for people, almost like in the UK having a little back garden with herbs and the birth wine isn't something that's exclusive to my family (some of them do have commercial vineyards, admittedly), but in general you will find mom and pop growing a bit of wine, when it comes to harvesting the neighbours help out and you help them out, I'd say wine making is as common as beer brewing in the UK, and not everybody is an expert at making fine wines, usually they just make their own wines for fun and because the tasting, and all that, it's a social thing, but almost everybody does the birth wine, so I would think if it was stored right, there might be a chance that it's drinkable, if not, well they find out once they open the bottle.

Though some friends in Austria have an old aunt who makes a liquor from sloe berries, she calls it a wine because it's fermented and not distilled though pretty potent stuff and that seems to keep forever, but she doesn't cork it and keeps it in some sort of jars (a different shape but a bit like the Roman amphoras).

From what I gathered, the storage seems to have a lot to do with it and the sealing, if air gets in, it will go off, same with light or temperature, starts a chemical process. Since we don't know how it was made and how it was closed/sealed, we can only venture guesses, my money would also be on 80% that it's not drinkable, but because the bottle was not upright and in a dark and cool place, I'd give it a 20% chance of being drinkable, though maybe not as good as intended.

So far we can only wait and see what happens when they open the bottle.

Btw the best wine I ever had was from an old couple in Italy who just do it as a hobby, he just loves pottering around and making wines, but it was the smoothest most velvety red I've ever had, had to stop myself from becoming a pest and dropping in every evening just for a glass of their fantastic wine.


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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 7:22:35 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		And again... we are dealing with home made ELDERBERRY wine, not a grape-based wine (usually red) that would normally be used in wine making in Italy and many other places.

The fact that it's not grape is quite significant from what I've read.

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 7:35:45 AM   
LadyConstanze


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Joined: 2/18/2005
Status: offline 		And again, I mentioned that several times...

But I just decided to check up elderberries in wine and ageing, and apparently elderberry ages better than other fruit wines due to the amount of tannin, which also has quite a bit to do with how wine ages.

quote:

Fruit wine, in general terms, is not as suitable for ageing as grape wine. However, like anything, there are exceptions. Some of the sources with higher tannin levels (e.g. elderberry) age wonderfully.


Again, see above, as I pointed out, no idea how it was sealed or made, it's all speculation, most likely it's spoiled, small chance it might be drinkable.

What specifically is your problem with that? Does it absolutely have to be spoiled and it has to be declared so before they open it? The future of the world doesn't really depend on it, let them enjoy taking the bottle home and finding out, think about what a wonderful thing it would be for them to have a sip of something so old, if it's not it really won't be the end of the world, unless of course you are desperately looking for an argument.

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 8:20:40 AM   
peppermint


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Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		I've read what everyone said and thank you. Yes, it's homemade wine. The other stuff we found and drank was pie cherry wine from the 60's and it was still okay. We are hoping (crosses fingers) that this 1941 wine is drinkable. First, Gary will turn 75 next year before we get home. Second, his oldest grandchild is getting married and he's the only grandparent she still has. Wouldn't old wine that her great grandparents (maybe great great grandparents) made add to the celebration?

I didn't know about tannin but think I should research that a bit. Thank you, LadyConstanze for giving me hope. I guess the plan will be to open it and have a sip the morning of the wedding. Either it's drinkable wine or we have some damned find vinegar.

Now that I'm up and about it's time for me to do more research on tannin and things.

_____________________________

We are stardust, we are golden, and we got to get ourselves back to the garden.

Yes, I am crazy about feathered creatures. I have a dozen chickens, 3 ducks, 5 geese, and 2 parakeets.

Revise that number. Just got 14 new chicks and 5 turkeys.

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 8:20:40 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		My problem is that just about everywhere I've read (including specialist wine making websites) state that unless certain very specific conditions are met when fermenting and bottling, the wine is basically just vinegar or even downright toxic to drink after 5 years or soon after.

My late aunt used to make a lot of wine and always had done for many decades (including elderberry and elderflower which grew profusely in her big garden).
She would never attempt to drink any wine she brewed that was more than 5 years old.


So my concern is that the home-made elderberry wine is not only unpalatable, but actually poisonous if they attempt to drink it.


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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 8:43:07 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

My problem is that just about everywhere I've read (including specialist wine making websites) state that unless certain very specific conditions are met when fermenting and bottling, the wine is basically just vinegar or even downright toxic to drink after 5 years or soon after.

My late aunt used to make a lot of wine and always had done for many decades (including elderberry and elderflower which grew profusely in her big garden).
She would never attempt to drink any wine she brewed that was more than 5 years old.


So my concern is that the home-made elderberry wine is not only unpalatable, but actually poisonous if they attempt to drink it.



Could you cite the source of home made wine turning toxic?


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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 9:20:08 AM   
peppermint


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Joined: 10/18/2005
From: Montana
Status: offline 		Everything I have read this morning says the wine might not be drinkable, however, it won't be poisonous. No mold or bad things would or could grow in it. It could be vinegar.

_____________________________

We are stardust, we are golden, and we got to get ourselves back to the garden.

Yes, I am crazy about feathered creatures. I have a dozen chickens, 3 ducks, 5 geese, and 2 parakeets.

Revise that number. Just got 14 new chicks and 5 turkeys.

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 10:24:11 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

My problem is that just about everywhere I've read (including specialist wine making websites) state that unless certain very specific conditions are met when fermenting and bottling, the wine is basically just vinegar or even downright toxic to drink after 5 years or soon after.

My late aunt used to make a lot of wine and always had done for many decades (including elderberry and elderflower which grew profusely in her big garden).
She would never attempt to drink any wine she brewed that was more than 5 years old.


So my concern is that the home-made elderberry wine is not only unpalatable, but actually poisonous if they attempt to drink it.



Could you cite the source of home made wine turning toxic?


Many sites and blogs state that old wine will not be toxic/poisonous.

However, here is just one site that argues differently: The lab tested 1,300 bottles of California wine, and found that about a quarter of them had higher levels of arsenic than the maximum limit that the Environmental Protection Agency allows in water.
-and-
...But water is the only beverage with an arsenic baseline that is monitored by the US government, and the defendants stress that the chemical is toxic even in small doses, and is known to cause cancer and "contributes to a host of other debilitating/fatal diseases."

This condition is also mentioned on The Daily Mail website.
It is also mentioned on The Guardian website: Several prominent bargain wine brands could contain toxic levels of arsenic, a known carcinogen, at levels up to five times higher than the Environmental Protection Agency allows for water, according to a proposed class action lawsuit filed on Thursday in Los Angeles.

Bearing in mind these are from reputable wine makers, what chance is there that a very old home-made wine is also similarly afflicted, no matter how small the risk???
Would you want to bet your life that those drinking such wines aren't at least going to be potentially seriously ill?

I wouldn't take that chance. Seriously, I wouldn't.


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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 12:21:54 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Fruit wines are low in alcohol and do not have the body of a big red.




We make a lemon wine that routinely hits about 14-15%. Most commercial fruit wines are around 11% - not a big difference since most commercial wines are somewhere between 13-14%.

But, that said, with homemade wine you never know the protocols that were used and not a lot of wines can hold up to time.

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 2:25:44 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Why not get a hypodermic needle long enough to penetrate the cork and draw some out for a look see taste. I have an idea it has turned to vinegar. But even if it has it is still a keepsake and if it has not...well.. then make a special occasion and toast away.

Butch

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 4:52:23 PM   
peppermint


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From: Montana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Why not get a hypodermic needle long enough to penetrate the cork and draw some out for a look see taste. I have an idea it has turned to vinegar. But even if it has it is still a keepsake and if it has not...well.. then make a special occasion and toast away.

Butch


We could so that once we get home. At the moment we're just dreaming of the wine's possibilities.

We're thinking that the wine in the cistern was good after 50 years, so the wine in the basement has a good chance of being drinkable at 75. Whatever Gary's parents did with the wine it seems to have lasted through time.

_____________________________

We are stardust, we are golden, and we got to get ourselves back to the garden.

Yes, I am crazy about feathered creatures. I have a dozen chickens, 3 ducks, 5 geese, and 2 parakeets.

Revise that number. Just got 14 new chicks and 5 turkeys.

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 5:06:08 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

The house sitter found some old bottles of wine in the basement. It's an unheated space. It's very dark in there. Hardly anyone ever goes in there. However, the house sitter decided to clean it out to get to a neat tool bench thingy. Anyway, he found a bottle of home made elderberry wine that is dated 1941. Gary is excited about that because it's the year he was born. That might be why his parents saved that wine for all those years. They didn't even move into the house until 1951. Anyway, is there any chance that wine is still good? We did find some wine in the old cistern from the 1960s that was still okay. We're hoping to check it out when we get home.


There is every chance that the wine is still absolutely flawless (and aged well) as there is, it's spoiled, vinegar and horrid.

The excitement is....it could be spectacular.

At minimum....it's worth frying a phenomenal steak for.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 12/1/2015 5:07:33 PM >

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 5:34:22 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
At minimum....it's worth frying a phenomenal steak for.

Now that IS something I could get behind!!!!

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RE: aged wine - 12/1/2015 6:36:07 PM   
angelikaJ


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Joined: 6/22/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

My problem is that just about everywhere I've read (including specialist wine making websites) state that unless certain very specific conditions are met when fermenting and bottling, the wine is basically just vinegar or even downright toxic to drink after 5 years or soon after.

My late aunt used to make a lot of wine and always had done for many decades (including elderberry and elderflower which grew profusely in her big garden).
She would never attempt to drink any wine she brewed that was more than 5 years old.


So my concern is that the home-made elderberry wine is not only unpalatable, but actually poisonous if they attempt to drink it.



Could you cite the source of home made wine turning toxic?


Many sites and blogs state that old wine will not be toxic/poisonous.

However, here is just one site that argues differently: The lab tested 1,300 bottles of California wine, and found that about a quarter of them had higher levels of arsenic than the maximum limit that the Environmental Protection Agency allows in water.
-and-
...But water is the only beverage with an arsenic baseline that is monitored by the US government, and the defendants stress that the chemical is toxic even in small doses, and is known to cause cancer and "contributes to a host of other debilitating/fatal diseases."

This condition is also mentioned on The Daily Mail website.
It is also mentioned on The Guardian website: Several prominent bargain wine brands could contain toxic levels of arsenic, a known carcinogen, at levels up to five times higher than the Environmental Protection Agency allows for water, according to a proposed class action lawsuit filed on Thursday in Los Angeles.

Bearing in mind these are from reputable wine makers, what chance is there that a very old home-made wine is also similarly afflicted, no matter how small the risk???
Would you want to bet your life that those drinking such wines aren't at least going to be potentially seriously ill?

I wouldn't take that chance. Seriously, I wouldn't.




Ah, thank you, now I understand.
It isn't aging wine that causes it to have arsenic.
The arsenic gets into the wine because it's in the grapes. Arsenic is in the soil and water... just like the arsenic that is often found in beer, rice and brussels sprouts (along with other foods).

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