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Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 1:57:51 PM

MrRodgers

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He shouldn't need one. Snowden only did what we've asked others to do in foreign espionage and only because we thought it would protect America when we find, that's not...the only reason.

Don't people see what is happening ? Isn't this the way the Nazis and the Soviets did it ? Imagine if you will, the US once gave sanctuary to Soviet dissidents and now our roles are actually reversed where Russia is giving sanctuary to someone called...an American dissident, even worse...a traitor !! How about Patraeus ?

Without an opposition, you have no republic. Without the freedom to divulge infringements on our rights with what's been proven to be only domestic surveillance techniques without revealing or risking those in operations who are in fact, often violating another country's sovereignty...we are truly doomed.

Some commentators will tell you and I am not in disagreement, that with these very methods within a new legal regime domestically, add to that overwhelming power resulting in a new hegemony, a 4TH Reich is now forming...in the US. We are merely witnessing the long game, not the short version.

Already we are changing the meaning of words. When [they] kill innocents, we call it terrorism. When we kill innocents, we call it collateral damage.

Is there any more news on this ?

HERE

In March, one of Snowden’s attorneys told POLITICO that her client “would be amenable to coming back to the United States for the kind of plea bargain that Gen. [David] Petraeus received."

HERE

It's beginning to look like there is a double standard.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

Post #: 1

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 2:21:26 PM

mnottertail

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While I think that breaching protocols for secrecy like Petraeus did still warranted more punishment, there is no way to compare these apples and oranges.

Snowden knowingly gave national secrets to the enemy.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 2

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 3:12:44 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

While I think that breaching protocols for secrecy like Petraeus did still warranted more punishment, there is no way to compare these apples and oranges.

Snowden knowingly gave national secrets to the enemy.

Just what enemy ? Russia ? China ? Are we at war with them ? And Just what secrets ? Plus there is info. out there that Petraeus did more than just break protocol and it seems I remember those suggesting the same punishment to Daniel. Ellsberg for disclosing the Pentagon papers.

Who BTW, had all charges dropped and was awarded the Right Livelihood Award in 2006. He is also known for popularizing part of decision theory, the Ellsberg paradox. And neither had to leave the country and then try to make a plea deal.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/1/2015 3:19:36 PM >

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 3

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 5:04:38 PM

LookieNoNookie

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Snowden, as unabashedly horrid as the U.S govt. is (and every other on the planet), is a traitor.

Period.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 4

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 6:28:23 PM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Snowden, as unabashedly horrid as the U.S govt. is (and every other on the planet), is a traitor.

Period.

Just how is he a traitor ? Or is he a traitor like those that betrayed the Nazi and Communist regimes, or those who would even just leave N. Korea let alone divulge particulars of its fascist regime ? And yet you even admit our govt. has acted horridly and in fact as we know now, has done...worse than that.

How is it that we think it fascist and a violation of basic human rights for those countries to secretly try, jail and brand their own citizens that would leave or disclose their espionage, as traitors and for simply seeking to enjoy the rights we presumably have and millions have died to protect, yet call a man the same for simply exposing our govt for censure of those same rights ? It doesn't make sense.

Either those rights are inalienable and bestowed upon us by our creator and govt. really is supposed to operate at the consent of the governed...or they are not and [it] is not and such a thing as political asylum for example...shouldn't even exist in the world.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/1/2015 6:32:55 PM >

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)

Post #: 5

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 7:52:18 PM

jlf1961

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The information that snowden released put use troops on the ground at risk.

How about this for a plea deal?

He is dropped in the old Marine Mountain warfare training area, given 5 days rations, a knife, and rudimentary survival gear, and a 24 hour head start.

We drop 50 troopers who were in units put at risk by snowden's leaks, and they hunt the bastard down.

If he survives a week, he gets a full pardon.

If not, his head is put on a pike outside NSA headquarters.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 6

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 8:41:32 PM

thompsonx

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The information that snowden released put use troops on the ground at risk.

Cite please

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 7

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 8:59:24 PM

MrRodgers

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Let's get something straight here. To call Snowden a traitor is at least two things.

One, it's ok for the US to electronically spy on everybody, anytime, anywhere in the world and for whatever reason our govt. says it needs to do it. That does include the world's political and business leaders.

Two, that it's just ok for the US govt. to conduct that same blanket, universal electronic spying on its own citizens via a rubber-stamped warrant and before that warrant is even officially executed. (stamped)

At no time since 2011 has the US govt. ever specifically proven that Snowden's disclosures ever put anybody at risk except possibly, fellow employees employed by and at risk by exposure and thus from, prosecution by the US govt.

Every step of the way, Snowden was told by those in govt. and at the various contractors that what he had found and they too knew what was going on, was unethical and unconstitutional but that to make it public...would get him killed.

Since these revelations, the US govt., its intelligence agencies, the military and even in congressional testimony and public statements, have lied right straight through their teeth, the first of which by the Director of NSA in congressional testimony that first prompted Snowden to quit and begin to engage foreign and US news publications and personnel.

HERE

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 8

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 9:44:17 PM

ifmaz

Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The information that snowden released put use troops on the ground at risk.

How about this for a plea deal?

He is dropped in the old Marine Mountain warfare training area, given 5 days rations, a knife, and rudimentary survival gear, and a 24 hour head start.

We drop 50 troopers who were in units put at risk by snowden's leaks, and they hunt the bastard down.

If he survives a week, he gets a full pardon.

If not, his head is put on a pike outside NSA headquarters.

How about you give me your passwords since you have nothing to hide? How about we take everyone who thinks its OK for the government to spy on them and remove them from a country whose Fourth Amendment prohibits such actions?

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 9

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/1/2015 9:59:29 PM

ifmaz

Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Let's get something straight here. To call Snowden a traitor is at least two things.

One, it's ok for the US to electronically spy on everybody, anytime, anywhere in the world and for whatever reason our govt. says it needs to do it. That does include the world's political and business leaders.

Two, that it's just ok for the US govt. to conduct that same blanket, universal electronic spying on its own citizens via a rubber-stamped warrant and before that warrant is even officially executed. (stamped)
...

Technically speaking, Snowden is a traitor as he used his access at the NSA to divulge classified, "secured" material. Should he come back to the US I'd expect him to face a trial for his actions.

Personally, I think he's a hero and would much rather see everyone who played a part in warrantless spying, including our current and previous presidents in addition to numerous senators, face a trial as traitors to the Constitution. The presidential oath says to "preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States". Blatantly violating the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution is in no way defending or protecting it.

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 10

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 7:18:06 AM

thompsonx

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The information that snowden released put use troops on the ground at risk.

We are still waiting for that cite.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 11

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 7:50:32 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
Already we are changing the meaning of words. When [they] kill innocents, we call it terrorism. When we kill innocents, we call it collateral damage.

The difference, though, is that the goal of the "terrorists" is to kill innocents, while the goal of ours is to kill the terrorists.

If you're killing innocents as a way to get your point across, to piss off a government, to scare the masses to your demands, etc., you're targeting the innocents, and that's terrible.

If you're targeting the "bad guys" and innocents get killed, it's not as bad, especially if there was no way to further limit innocent deaths and still kill the "bad guys."

I'm not saying the US acts honorably in all things, or that we couldn't have limited innocent deaths more than we did. I'm sure there have been times when we could have planned for (and accomplished) fewer innocent deaths (true "mistakes/accidents" aren't included since they weren't according to the plan).

If a legitimate target is hiding among innocents, and a planned strike takes out the target and some innocents, it's different than having innocents as the actual targets according to the plan.

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 12

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 8:00:51 AM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

The difference, though, is that the goal of the "terrorists" is to kill innocents, while the goal of ours is to kill the terrorists.

There are many who would classify the usa as a terrorist nation. A cusory look at our history would indicate there is more than a little credence to that position.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 13

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 8:07:31 AM

hot4bondage

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I would also like to see him get a fair trial, but that's not possible under the current law. As a security contractor, he doesn't qualify for whistleblower protections, so he's being charged the same as someone who sold our secrets to the highest bidder. I haven't seen any evidence that he did anything like that, even by accident. But he did confirm that our metadata is being collected without our consent. That's a big fucking violation. Metadata can be even more revealing than the words in a phone call or an email. It pretty much covers the journalist's mantra of who, what, where, when, why and how. NSA can effectively decide who is worthy of holding power in several countries including our own for at least a generation.

(in reply to ifmaz)

Post #: 14

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 10:12:36 AM

joether

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Joined: 7/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

The information that snowden released put use troops on the ground at risk.

How about this for a plea deal?

He is dropped in the old Marine Mountain warfare training area, given 5 days rations, a knife, and rudimentary survival gear, and a 24 hour head start.

We drop 50 troopers who were in units put at risk by snowden's leaks, and they hunt the bastard down.

If he survives a week, he gets a full pardon.

If not, his head is put on a pike outside NSA headquarters.

Good idea. Allow me to add some Capitalism into the idea....

We make it Pay Per View. So the viewer can see all the people from a global perspective (like the Hunger Games). We get a full detail roster of the troops, equipment, and even layout. Then like 'Running Man' we, the audience sit back and watch what happens.

All the net profits secreting going to pay down the national debt. Its a win for everyone! (except for Snowden, but, fuck him!).

After that we can throw in some of those senators and idiots running for President whom are basically traitors to the nation. Or have you all forgotten....the letter to Iran....? See how well Sen. Ted Cruz, Bobby Jindal, and others handle a real threat to their life. Given that we'll have more political stupidity coming out of Washington, it will not be hard to find 'guests' for future shows.

(in reply to jlf1961)

Post #: 15

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 10:19:07 AM

joether

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The information that snowden released put use troops on the ground at risk.

We are still waiting for that cite.

Going to be hard since....someone...removed all the info off the internet from the majority of sites within a week of its release. The only places you might find it is 'here' and 'there' on conspiracy websites. Even then, the real evidence has been vastly watered down. But there were plenty of juicy bits of information ranging from troops and equipment to political 'understandings'.

Mr. Snowden did not do the nation any favors. There was a structure in place, even when he was around for protections of whistle-blowing. He was young, and didn't have an end game in mind when he took action. In certain jobs, its good to have an ego (i.e. running for the GOP/TP nomination), in the NSA, its best not to be a celebrity. Ask 1000 people on the street whom the NSA director is right now. You'll get 1000 'I dont know'. That is because unlike Republicans in Congress, the Director of the NSA has more important things to handle in the nation!

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 16

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 10:36:40 AM

Termyn8or

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

The difference, though, is that the goal of the "terrorists" is to kill innocents, while the goal of ours is to kill the terrorists.

There are many who would classify the usa as a terrorist nation. A cusory look at our history would indicate there is more than a little credence to that position.

Agreed. (alert the media) Who has been the aggressor in most of the conflicts occurring after WW2 ?

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 17

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 10:47:35 AM

Termyn8or

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" There was a structure in place, even when he was around for protections of whistle-blowing."

Not for this. the whistleblower protection, which is a joke, is for city inspectors n shit like that, not for this. Or a congressman getting a blowjob on the side.

Even the witness protection program is a fucking joke, there is a record of it. All local law enforcement knows who is in it because they need to avoid busting that witness and putting them in jail. It is like an immunity but word will get around. Once it does you are dead. So don't tattle on anyone.

Really, you get a "Get out of jail free" card, how can anyone not notice that ? Bunch of bullshit.

While we are on the subject of the government's dirty little secrets, what about Assange ? NEVER SET FOOT IN THE US ! The US forced down a Presidential plane to get to him - AN ACT OF FUCKING WAR.

Go ahead, the world you forge will belong to your kids, not mine.

T^T

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 18

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 10:58:38 AM

thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: joether

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The information that snowden released put use troops on the ground at risk.

We are still waiting for that cite.

Going to be hard since....someone...removed all the info off the internet from the majority of sites within a week of its release. The only places you might find it is 'here' and 'there' on conspiracy websites. Even then, the real evidence has been vastly watered down. But there were plenty of juicy bits of information ranging from troops and equipment to political 'understandings'.

Mr. Snowden did not do the nation any favors. There was a structure in place, even when he was around for protections of whistle-blowing. He was young, and didn't have an end game in mind when he took action. In certain jobs, its good to have an ego (i.e. running for the GOP/TP nomination), in the NSA, its best not to be a celebrity. Ask 1000 people on the street whom the NSA director is right now. You'll get 1000 'I dont know'. That is because unlike Republicans in Congress, the Director of the NSA has more important things to handle in the nation!

So you also havent a clue...thanks for clearing that up

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 19

RE: Snowden awaiting a plea deal - 12/2/2015 12:42:04 PM

Termyn8or

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FR

If Snowden takes a plea deal from abroad, he is a fucking fool. Why would they offer a plea deal ? The only reason is to get their grubby little hands on him so they can do what they want, which is to punish him. He will likely do more time than Pollard. And in not so nice a place.

If they do not give him pencil, paper, stamps and envelopes, how will anyone know where he is ? You folk do not seem to realize what CAN happen, and in this case it is clear that it would.

If Snowden ever returns to the US he will be a victim of his own stupidity.

T^T

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 20

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