General thoughts on humanity. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> General thoughts on humanity. (12/2/2015 10:23:48 PM)

I read these threads and see people stating that guns are the problem, neglecting a simple truth.

Humans, as a species, enjoy killing other humans.

Face reality, we have been doing it for a few million years.

And we have built our civilization, our culture, our lives on the bodies of our victims.

And to say that violence never solved anything is the biggest joke spoken or written today. Long before Heinlein said it, it was known that violence solved Rome's problem with Carthage, the Greek's problem with Troy, Charles the Hammer's problems with converting the Germanic tribes to Christianity, the Crusader's problems in Jerusalem, not to mention teaching the Germans of Dresden a lesson, or the dead in Tokyo from the fire bombing raids, or Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

The treaties between east and west concerning nuclear weapons were not meant to eliminate them, but to limit how many each side had, and even then left enough of the damn things to eliminate all life on this rock 10 times over.

Our favorite sports are based in violence, Football, rugby, hockey. How many Olympic sports evolved from the military arts? Archery, the Javelin throw? Competition shooting combined with cross country skiing.

Before guns, the Huns, Vikings, Mongols had massacred hundreds and thousands in a day, with swords and axes. Crossbows were not invented for hunting, they were invented because the standard bow couldnt punch through the armor of the day. The Chinese took gun powder straight from fireworks to making rockets to start fires in besieged cities, discovering cannons along the way.

Hell, if humans ever achieve interstellar travel, the first alien race we come across is going to elicit "it looks hostile, lets fuck with it."

Human civilization is at least 20,000 years old, and we have yet to come up with a way to solve problems that does not involve killing other humans.

The groups that laid down their arms in an attempt at peace have been subjugated or exterminated.

Our heroes are killers, either real or fictional.

King Arthur, Beowulf, our myths are full of heroic warriors.

We build monuments to wars, soldiers, but not to peace makers, or not many.

And then someone says that when humans evolve this will change. Christ, in 20000 years humans have not changed except to become better killers, what the hell makes you think the species will change in the next 20 thousand, or 20 million?

Gun control makes it harder to get guns, but gun control did not prevent Paris. If they cant get guns, they make bombs, or hijack planes.

You want to stop mass killings? Give you an easy way to do it, get rid of 90% of the human race and eliminate technology. It will stop mass killings for maybe a couple hundred years.

And my theory that the cause of the violence is too many people living too close together is shot to hell, since historically speaking, humans would travel thousands of miles to kill other humans.



MrRodgers -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 12:12:41 AM)

What you touch on is the result of A) human anthropology then, B) anthropological psychology, which resulted in, C) philosophical anthropology. What was [our] thinking and going back farther than 20,000 years ?

A) Our thinking was to eat, B) Killing off competition...more to eat, including cannibalism. C) The 'philosophy' was...kill more, easier to eat and more to eat. Still at about 8-10,000 years ago, there's no breakfast, lunch and dinner. It was all you could eat...when you could eat because one never knew when they'd...eat again.

I'll try to be brief but humans killing humans arguably, started with Cro Magnon vs Neanderthal. Less competition and cannibalism. Then perfecting the killing of animals, that was the philosophy of survival.

Now fast forward, war over the Nile and the 'perfecting' of slavery which was actually an improvement over eating other humans. (when we had to and we did but then...ran out of food) So, we get the slaves to hunt and grow food. Humans killing other human beings became very, very easy and all about survival.

Since then, we now have food as only about 40,000 a day out of 7 billion...die from not enough to eat and the living doesn't need or want to eat the dead now. Some improvement I guess. Now killing is for power, resources (money) and religion. (some from passion, i.e., emotional, medical and also, accidental)

There you have it all throughout history, pretty short book and humans killing humans has become very, very easy.



Dvr22999874 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 12:20:01 AM)

Hear, Hear..................and a couple of bits of useless information; Trig Trigvasson the first Christian king of Norway converted the Norwegians to christianity by the simple expedient of giving them one of two choices.....................you could become a Christian or you could become dead. He had 100% success rate as far north of Trondheim, where he died................and there is a monument to him in the city square !!!..................Apart from the monument, it sounds just like ISIS today, doesn't it ?
And that great warrior Richard the Lionheart used to keep prisoners alive for the simple reason that if supplies got short, they were on the menu. So much for Good King Richard !!!



MrRodgers -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 12:39:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Hear, Hear..................and a couple of bits of useless information; Trig Trigvasson the first Christian king of Norway converted the Norwegians to christianity by the simple expedient of giving them one of two choices.....................you could become a Christian or you could become dead. He had 100% success rate as far north of Trondheim, where he died................and there is a monument to him in the city square !!!..................Apart from the monument, it sounds just like ISIS today, doesn't it ?
And that great warrior Richard the Lionheart used to keep prisoners alive for the simple reason that if supplies got short, they were on the menu. So much for Good King Richard !!!

Not to put to fine a point on it but WiKi: Olaf Tryggvason (960s – 1000) was King of Norway from 995 to 1000. He was the son of Tryggvi Olafsson, king of Viken (Vingulmark, and Rånrike), and, according to later sagas, the great-grandson of Harald Fairhair, first King of Norway.

Olaf played an important part in the conversion of the Norse to Christianity.[2][3][4] He is said to have built the first church in Norway (in 995) and to have founded the city of Trondheim (in 997). A statue of Olaf Tryggvason is located in the city's central plaza.

[4] Olaf routinely used force to compel conversions to Christianity, including executions and torture of those who refused. Several instances of Olaf's attempts led to days of remembrance amongst modern heathens similar to the feast days of martyred Christian saints. Raud the Strong (remembered 9 January) refused to convert and, after a failed attempt using a wooden pin to pry open his mouth to insert a snake, was killed by a snake goaded by a hot poker through a drinking horn into Raud's mouth and down his throat. Eyvind Kinnrifi (9 February) likewise refused and was killed by a brazier of hot coals resting on his belly. The possibly apocryphal figure, Sigrid the Haughty (9 November), was said to have refused to marry Olaf if it meant forgoing her forefathers' religion, upon which Olaf slapped her with his glove, an act that prompted her to unite his enemies against him some years later. WiKi can be wrong though.

Very interesting note, Christianity in Norway must be losing its charm: Early 21st century, Norway had one of the lowest church attendance rates in the world. Below is a table that compares Norway with other governmental divisions in regular church attendance for the early 21st century (2004-2006). In contrast to 250,000 regular churchgoers in the whole of Norway in 2004, 43,500 attend Lakewood Church in the United States each week, and 23,000 attend Hillsong Church church in Australia each week.

The U.S. state of Alabama has a population roughly equal to that of Norway, but church attendance in Alabama is as much as 11 times higher than in Norway.



Dvr22999874 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 12:48:25 AM)

That shows the Norwegians have got more sense than the residents of Alabama *smile*.....................What IS a resident of Alabama called...............Alabamanian ? Alabaman ? Al' Akbar ?



Dvr22999874 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 12:52:35 AM)

I was told the story of Trig Trigvasson when I lived just outside Trondheim a few years ago. We were all pretty plastered at the time, so I could have got the story wrong too, so between me, my friends in Norway and Wiki, we probably all made a complete cock of Norwegian history *smile*. The student from the Uni in Trondheim used to give the statue a coat of paint each year and stick one of their uni-caps on him.



MrRodgers -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 12:21:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I was told the story of Trig Trigvasson when I lived just outside Trondheim a few years ago. We were all pretty plastered at the time, so I could have got the story wrong too, so between me, my friends in Norway and Wiki, we probably all made a complete cock of Norwegian history *smile*. The student from the Uni in Trondheim used to give the statue a coat of paint each year and stick one of their uni-caps on him.

Sounds like the Norwegians seem to have some sense of humor. Wiki has been shown to be wrong but at least, in much more recent history.



mnottertail -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 2:02:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Hear, Hear..................and a couple of bits of useless information; Trig Trigvasson the first Christian king of Norway converted the Norwegians to christianity by the simple expedient of giving them one of two choices.....................you could become a Christian or you could become dead. He had 100% success rate as far north of Trondheim, where he died................and there is a monument to him in the city square !!!..................Apart from the monument, it sounds just like ISIS today, doesn't it ?
And that great warrior Richard the Lionheart used to keep prisoners alive for the simple reason that if supplies got short, they were on the menu. So much for Good King Richard !!!


I think the guy who brought xtianity to Norway under the conditions you outlined would be Olaf the Stout. Tryggvi Tryggvason would have been the fellow who claimed to be Olaf Tryggvasons son, (Tryggvi the Pretender, although about half thought he had a valid claim) and hurled spears with both hands, and said, "Thus did my father teach me to say mass." He was overwhelmed by Svein Forkbeard and met his death at that battle.

(Heimskringla ~Sturlasson)



Greta75 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 2:49:04 PM)

If this is another gun control thread.
Technically, gun control will not stop killing, but it somehow feels like, in terms of self-defense, i rather be tackling knives than be in a shoot out where both parties have guns. And having to dodge bullets spraying everywhere.
I like living in a gun free country.
But if I was in the US, I'd like a gun, just because, I don't trust the government to be able to make it completely gun free.
Over here, it is practically completely gun free. I have confidence that bad guys can't access to guns.
IF US can achieve being gun-free, it actually feels alot safer than both parties carrying guns.
Of course terrorists will still attack with bombs, but that is with or without guns anyway. I don't know if it's the advisable thing to spray a terrorist with bullets IF they had strap ons.




OsideGirl -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 2:56:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


IF US can achieve being gun-free, it actually feels alot safer than both parties carrying guns.





With Mexico on our southern border, even if the US became a country where guns cannot be legally owned....there would still guns for those that want them.



thompsonx -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 3:38:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

Hear, Hear..................and a couple of bits of useless information; Trig Trigvasson the first Christian king of Norway converted the Norwegians to christianity by the simple expedient of giving them one of two choices.....................you could become a Christian or you could become dead. He had 100% success rate as far north of Trondheim, where he died................and there is a monument to him in the city square !!!..................Apart from the monument, it sounds just like ISIS today, doesn't it ?
And that great warrior Richard the Lionheart used to keep prisoners alive for the simple reason that if supplies got short, they were on the menu. So much for Good King Richard !!!


Then there is this guy who was made a saint for making all of russia christian,Vladimir I (ruled 980–1015), There are some who say that it may have been more of an economic thing as he wanted to marry into constnatines family and christianity was a prerequisit. Now putin wants to bring christianity back to russia...whodathunkit.



Greta75 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 3:44:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
With Mexico on our southern border, even if the US became a country where guns cannot be legally owned....there would still guns for those that want them.

Yea, I figured Mexico border security is the crux of the problem.



jlf1961 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 3:45:10 PM)

No this is not another gun control thread.

This is merely a thread about the futility of people screaming about mass killings, murder or any other form of human endeavor that involves the elimination of another human life.

I am 54 years old, been around this rock a couple of times, and seen exactly what humans do to each other. And it is not a minority of humans doing it.

The majority of humans on this planet either actively involve themselves in the elimination of other humans or support any action that achieves the killing of other people.

Trump calls for the whole sale bombing of ISIS controlled areas, his ratings soar. Obama sits on his ass and does nothing, his ratings drop to the sewer.

France bombs ISIS areas, there is celebration in the streets, even though not everyone in the target area were ISIS supporters.

The most popular movies today are those with as much blood, gore, murder and mayhem that the producers can get by the censors. I have watched people cheer when a major fight breaks out at a pee wee hockey game for christ's sake.

Humans are a violent, blood thirsty species. African villages are wiped out for being a different tribe, even though they are of the same genetic stock and even the same religion.

Muslim extremists kill non Muslims in some holy war while at the same time killing other Muslims for not being in the same sect.

The human species is incapable of peaceful coexistence



thompsonx -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 3:46:37 PM)


ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


With Mexico on our southern border, even if the US became a country where guns cannot be legally owned....there would still guns for those that want them.

Most unlikely

The Federal Penal Code specifies the types of firearms that may be possessed or carried by citizens and restricts others for use by the armed forces. The carrying of firearms requires an individual or collective license, for which specific requirements must be met. Applicants for licenses to carry weapons are generally required to post a bond, provide a justification for the weapon, and submit evidence of good conduct, among other things. Licenses may be suspended or cancelled by the Secretariat of National Defense in certain circumstances, typically having to do with the license holder’s conduct. Holders of licenses are restricted from carrying their firearms at or during specified public events, with certain exceptions for rodeos and gun-related events, or at any gathering where disputes are predictable. The Federal Law on Firearms and Explosives imposes restrictions on the manufacture, import, and export of firearms, and adds a long list of penalties for violations of its provisions to supplement those provided by the Federal Penal Code. The Law imposes stiff penalties for the smuggling of arms reserved exclusively for the armed forces.


http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/mexico.php



Greta75 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 4:05:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Muslim extremists kill non Muslims in some holy war while at the same time killing other Muslims for not being in the same sect.


In our eyes, they are killing their fellow Muslim brothers. But in their eyes, the muslims they kill aren't practicing Islam in their eyes, but more like heretics of Islam.
In another words, they absolutely believe anybody who do not adhere to their beliefs should be killed.

Humans are bloodthirsty, but still, we need to make sure killing is always happening for the greater good.

Like, to kill a mass murderer, rather than keeping him in prison is the greater good. What good is it for society to keep him in prison for life, using up tax payers money better used to feed a poor family.





Greta75 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 4:10:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The Federal Law on Firearms and Explosives imposes restrictions on the manufacture, import, and export of firearms, and adds a long list of penalties for violations of its provisions to supplement those provided by the Federal Penal Code. The Law imposes stiff penalties for the smuggling of arms reserved exclusively for the armed forces.

And you trust your government to uphold these laws efficiently?



OsideGirl -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 4:35:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
With Mexico on our southern border, even if the US became a country where guns cannot be legally owned....there would still guns for those that want them.

Yea, I figured Mexico border security is the crux of the problem.


Not exactly, Mexico is a corrupt country with rampant crime and a high poverty rate. That combined with an open border is the crux of the problem. If it were Sweden on the other side of that border it wouldn't be much of an issue.



jlf1961 -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 5:14:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The Federal Law on Firearms and Explosives imposes restrictions on the manufacture, import, and export of firearms, and adds a long list of penalties for violations of its provisions to supplement those provided by the Federal Penal Code. The Law imposes stiff penalties for the smuggling of arms reserved exclusively for the armed forces.

And you trust your government to uphold these laws efficiently?



Actually, upholding the law is only as good as the methods used. And trust me the only way to efficiently keep illegal weapons out of any country is inspect every piece of freight, luggage, vehicle and then you can be sure some have gotten past.

there was a movie with Clint Eastwood where he played a Secret Service agent, in it the Malkovich (the guy playing the assassin) made a gun out of high tech plastics, with the only metal being the bullets and two springs.

The bullets he hid in a rabbit's foot key chain, the springs were in a pen.

The kicker, you can make a very effective firearm out of plastic that is undetectable.

Hell, give me access to a half way decent machine shop and I will make you a nice sniper rifle you can hide in parts that are completely innocent, the barrel in a aluminum or steel cane, and since I would use a bolt action, hiding the rest of the metal parts would be a cake walk.

The hardest thing would be to hide the scope, but hell, use a freaking super long telephoto lens assembly with the guts removed. Unscrew one end and slide the scope out.

some friends of mine and I built a complete desktop computer in an aluminum brief case, and with the miniturization of computer components, could do the same thing and still have enough room under the computer to put everything that would be hard to find. They dont x-ray computers.

Just need a good cover to have a "super" laptop other than for tourists.

But again, this is not about gun control.

This is about the human animal and the false hope that it will evolve beyond the need to kill other members of the human species.

The simple fact is that we will exterminate ourselves long before we have a chance to achieve that state of existence.

The human race is a failed experiment in an advanced life form.



thompsonx -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 5:57:03 PM)


ORIGINAL: Greta75

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
The Federal Law on Firearms and Explosives imposes restrictions on the manufacture, import, and export of firearms, and adds a long list of penalties for violations of its provisions to supplement those provided by the Federal Penal Code. The Law imposes stiff penalties for the smuggling of arms reserved exclusively for the armed forces.

And you trust your government to uphold these laws efficiently?

Please try to follow along. I am from california. The cite is about the law in mexico. I have no control or input to the government of mexico. You seem to have no control of your mouth brain interface.





thompsonx -> RE: General thoughts on humanity. (12/3/2015 6:03:40 PM)


ORIGINAL: OsideGirl





ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
With Mexico on our southern border, even if the US became a country where guns cannot be legally owned....there would still guns for those that want them.



Not exactly, Mexico is a corrupt country with rampant crime and a high poverty rate. That combined with an open border is the crux of the problem. If it were Sweden on the other side of that border it wouldn't be much of an issue.


Perhaps you missed this.

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


With Mexico on our southern border, even if the US became a country where guns cannot be legally owned....there would still guns for those that want them.

Most unlikely

The Federal Penal Code specifies the types of firearms that may be possessed or carried by citizens and restricts others for use by the armed forces. The carrying of firearms requires an individual or collective license, for which specific requirements must be met. Applicants for licenses to carry weapons are generally required to post a bond, provide a justification for the weapon, and submit evidence of good conduct, among other things. Licenses may be suspended or cancelled by the Secretariat of National Defense in certain circumstances, typically having to do with the license holder’s conduct. Holders of licenses are restricted from carrying their firearms at or during specified public events, with certain exceptions for rodeos and gun-related events, or at any gathering where disputes are predictable. The Federal Law on Firearms and Explosives imposes restrictions on the manufacture, import, and export of firearms, and adds a long list of penalties for violations of its provisions to supplement those provided by the Federal Penal Code. The Law imposes stiff penalties for the smuggling of arms reserved exclusively for the armed forces.


http://www.loc.gov/law/help/firearms-control/mexico.php



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