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BamaD -> RE: Using lists (12/7/2015 7:03:05 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: joether
quote:
ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Geez, as much as I hate to agree with some on these boards, I am forced to at this point.
In another thread, someone suggested using the "no fly list" as a means to ban the sell of firearms to individuals.
The most glaring problem is that the list is a mess, and you can end up on that list for some pretty fucked up reasons.
Then there is this fact:
No-Fly List Offers No Hope for Correcting Mistakes, Judge Rules
The federal government lacks an effective system for allowing people to get off the no-fly list who are put there by mistake, a federal judge ruled Tuesday.
The ruling came in a lawsuit filed by 13 American citizens and permanent residents, including four military veterans, who have been barred from flights to or from the United States or over U.S. airspace. Many of them have been told they're on the government's no-fly list.
Each of them applied for relief under the Department of Homeland Security's Traveler Redress Inquiry Program, but Judge Anna Brown of Oregon said the program is so lacking in providing fairness that it's unconstitutional.
If the government mistakenly puts someone on the list, the judge said, the redress process "does not provide a meaningful mechanism for travelers who have been denied boarding to correct erroneous information in the government's terrorism databases."
I put the last in bold for because there is not just one list, there are over 2 dozen.
What was the state reason these individuals were on the 'No Fly List'? Even if it is a mistake, there would be a listed reason. From there one could perform some investigative work to determine the merits of the issue. Just because someone states they are innocent, does that mean they are?
In my view, to be placed on such a list requires at the very least, some actual evidence. That it can be challenged in court. And that a person is innocent of the charge until proven guilty. So, an issue comes up, and mail sent to the individual (if possible) notifying them of a court appearance on a specific day and time. It is up to the government to prove guilt, not the defendant to prove their innocence. In fact, the Defendant doesn't have to say anything (i.e. observing their 5th amendment right). The judge (with jury depending on the legal mechanics) would have to determine guilt or innocence. That the matter can be tried at a later date if circumstances change.
The current system has to be over-hauled and fixed. Which is a job for Congress. The current Congress seems to inept to handle simply tasks let alone something as complex as the current problem. It is also a low priority to both political parties. They'll get around to dealing with it....AFTER.....giving money to NASA to resettle Americans on Pluto.....
The only way it gets fixed is for a group of people in Congress to have something to gain (politically/financially) with its outcome. Right now, neither party wants to risk allowing some nutcase off the list by a technically so they can go blow up a school full of kids (or machine gun them down).
They are listed based only on suspicion, not on proof. You are right, there should be proof to put someone on the lists but there is no such requirements.
The process to get off the list is lengthy once you find out you are on it. Keep in mind people don't even know they are on the list till it is used to stop them from doing something. They never have to tell you why you are on it or if you have been taken off of it. The idea of ingringeing on ANY rights without absolute proof (like a conviction) is a violation of due process which is what you should be outraged over.
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