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RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/9/2015 1:05:25 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

FR

so given you guys are so up on the idea of remembering the bombing of a Navy installation I assume you'll also be in support of remembering the countless CIVILIANS who were nuked as "pay back" right?...



Hate to burst your bubble, but less civilians died as a result of the two atomic bombs than the fire bombing of Japanese cities.

However, I suggest you google "rape of Nanking," "Bataan Death March" or the estimated casualties for civilians if the US would have invaded.

Give you a little help, the US estimated a loss of 2 to three million US service men if Japan was invaded, and also put the civilian loss of life at between 5 and six million, since the civilians would have been expected to "die for the emperor" as well as the military.

The two atomic bombs were not "pay back" but the most effective way to get Japan to surrender.

I would add for your consideration, you look at the treatment of English and American civilians "interred" by the Japanese in their occupation of various countries.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/9/2015 6:44:12 AM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I will point out that MacArthur left most of the Japanese administrations in charge of conquered Asian territories, that didnt help, and that many Americans carried French or English weaponry during the war.


So, a mixed bag as always when you talk history.


Perhaps those are the small details.

I'm not so sure about WW2 but it's well documented that in 1916 the United States was not geared up to fight any sort of war in terms of the quality of its weapons and the size of its standing army, but it was American money, loaned not handed over granted, but then there's no such thing as something for nothing in this world; that enabled the British to borrow huge amounts from them to pass to the French and Italians to keep them fighting.

Certainly American resources played a significant role in the outcome of both wars.

And, we shouldn't forget that the Russians were being steam-rollered by the Germans. The two biggest encirclements of an army in history occurring outside Moscow and Kiev, and without American food and equipment to keep them going and the associated impact upon morale? Could have been the end.


Yes we went into WWI unable to provide much beyond freash bodies. The one reasorce that everyone els was short of.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/9/2015 12:37:36 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I will point out that MacArthur left most of the Japanese administrations in charge of conquered Asian territories, that didnt help, and that many Americans carried French or English weaponry during the war.


So, a mixed bag as always when you talk history.


Perhaps those are the small details.

I'm not so sure about WW2 but it's well documented that in 1916 the United States was not geared up to fight any sort of war in terms of the quality of its weapons and the size of its standing army, but it was American money, loaned not handed over granted, but then there's no such thing as something for nothing in this world; that enabled the British to borrow huge amounts from them to pass to the French and Italians to keep them fighting.

Certainly American resources played a significant role in the outcome of both wars.

And, we shouldn't forget that the Russians were being steam-rollered by the Germans. The two biggest encirclements of an army in history occurring outside Moscow and Kiev, and without American food and equipment to keep them going and the associated impact upon morale? Could have been the end.


Yes we went into WWI unable to provide much beyond freash bodies. The one reasorce that everyone els was short of.


Money and fresh bodies was not a problem for the Americans.

And, Ludendorff is on record as stating we must end the war before the Americans enter. Whatever the contribution of US forces, which is open to debate, the Germans were certainly concerned at the prospect of another million Allied soldiers.

For me, the war hinged on three things:

Firstly, a small British Army destroying a much larger German Army at Mons in 1914. The Germans did not expect the British Army, only 100,000 strong compared with millions of German, French, Russian soldiers to be so strong. But, small though it was, the British Army was the best trained army in the world at that time. As per usual, the Germans didn't do their homework. And, for a nation that is generally deemed to be characterised by organisation, they have proved themselves to be very poor organisers and planners over the years. The first thing you do is know your enemy. And so, it put doubt in the minds of a people and army who viewed the British as no more of a threat than 'a nation of shop-keepers' - a phrase borrowed from Napoleon.

Secondly, the French ability to keep fighting. It shouldn't be underestimated that France then was still largely a peasant society, unlike Germany and Britain, but they kept at the task with fewer resources. 335,000 died at Verdun alone on both sides.

Thirdly, American money. It kept the French fighting, loaned to Britain passed on to France.

By 1916, the Germans had largely ceased to go on the offensive bar the odd foray and for me it was matter of when not if.

Yes, when the Russians sued for peace the Germans had divisions to move West but by that time the British Army, including Empire forces, was not the novice of 1914 and 1915 and so a lot more men were trained and in the fight - I think from 1916, after Verdun, the outcome was inevitable.


< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/9/2015 12:42:16 PM >


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RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/9/2015 12:53:18 PM   
mnottertail


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In any case, when the next world war comes, we will not have the luxury of building for 2-3 years before we are in the middle of it.

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RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/9/2015 2:26:37 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Hear, Hear Jeff.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/9/2015 9:41:47 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

In any case, when the next world war comes, we will not have the luxury of building for 2-3 years before we are in the middle of it.

If there is a real 3rd world war and the US is in fact threatened, The US will not have any shortage of men or materiel.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/9/2015 11:51:04 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I disagree Sutton was a conspiracy theorist and debunked for his efforts.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/326318

http://www.conspiracytheories.us/a-debate-with-anthony-sutton

http://fiction.bookrix.website/book-details/747462.Wall_Street_and_the_Bolshevik_Revolution.html (book sold as ficition)


Well Amazon 'correctly' sells his books under politics and economics foreign affairs etc where his work belongs. YOur site is obviously patronist theory site.

Lets take a look at some of the quotes from your other patronist site that claims to have 'debated' sutton and see how well they stack up.



Patronist: "Sutton and others do the same thing as what you read in that article. If I read Sutton (and I have read some of his stuff on central banking), the same thing will come out of the subject matter: Fabricated evidence on an enormous scale. That’s the nature of conspiracy theories." [Yet when sutton challenged him to come up with si much as JUST ONE fabrication he COULD NOT!]

but readers are supposed to excuse his ignorance as he confesses below:


Patronist:
I do not, as I have said before, have the background to check all the historical facts myself, but I am, I hope astute enough to recognize a good evidential argument when I see one.

Patronist: This may seem harsh, but you have to realize that in my position the best position I can take is that of an intelligent but as yet uninformed juror, regarding only the weight of EVIDENCE , as opposed to PROOF , which may or may not under the circumstances be possible.

[Pleads ignorance because he did not bother to read suttons material and neither is he educated or well enough researched to even hold a reasoned conversation on the subject as we will soon see, SOP for patronist rhetoricians.]

Patronist: This tactic is common in conspiracy theory circles: Demonize the enemy and make yourself out to be the victim.

[The skunk smelling his own ass first trick, blaming sutton for what they just did to him!]

Patronist: Let’s put Sutton’s Federal Reserve conspiracy theory into its proper context. When the fed was created there were those who hated the fed because there were Jews who were running it. Some of these ended up writing conspiracy theories about the fed, complete as usual with fabricated histories to make their case.



Sutton: I recently had a site call me “anti-semitic”. Which I am not. I challenged them and got experts on anti semtism to back me up. I got a weak apology..



Patronist: Sutton is most likely not an anti-Semite, but it is unequivocally true that his conspiracy theories come from overtly anti-Semitic sources.



Patronist got their asses handed to them on another round, experts agree that Suttons work is not anti-semetic but the patronists continue to draw their false premise by moving the goal posts to score points with the unresearched little-thinking and easily swayed.



Patronist: So the good news is that Sutton is not an anti-Semite. [patronists really fucked up on that one didnt they! lol] The bad news is that he never bothered to do any fact checking to find out if the conspiracy theorists were fabricating evidence or not. Had he bothered to do so he would have found the same thing I and others did, that conspiracy theories are unquestionably fabricated or instead use sources who know nothing of the subject matter, as will become evident shortly.


Just more of the same patronist bs rhetoric, since suttons work is all REFERENCED from the archives!



Sutton: Rough says “fabricated evidence on an enormous scale”
This is slanderous and ridiculous.

Even my opponents comment on my detailed accuracy.
I will challenge this guy.

Ask him to produce one piece of “fabricated” evidence.

Thank you so much for letting me know

Most sincerely
TONY SUTTON


[and all they produced was a great demonstration of their illiteracy.]



Patronist: False. The charter prohibited only other federal banks, but allowed state banks to continue.


Above the patronist nutters failed to comprehend simple english language that sutton was referring to any other bank capable of issuing money, hence the monopoly as sutton said.



“a Congressional grant for a privileged few.”


Patronist: False. You had full knowledge when you wrote this that the banks operations were never refused to anyone because they were not part of some status or privilege.


Above the patronist theory nutters again fail to comprehend 2nd grade grammar where sutton is referring to profits from their money monopoly among other perks.

and the illiterate nutters go on to say:



Patronist: This is written everywhere. The statement can only be seen as a deliberately falsified statement or a level of incompetent research that stretches the imagination.



Its no surprise a phd whose material is all referenced by supporting documents blew these illiterate tards off. Especially when his academic adversaries classified his work as: "Even my opponents comment on my detailed accuracy"


There is no need to go beyond this point with the rest of their frivolous patronist rhetoric same as seen above.


On amazon every one of suttons books get MORE than 4 stars






In the mix you will see elprazzidante carters national security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski making it very clear how the world is viewed from the top.

So do we consider Zbigniew Brzezinski conspiracy theorist too? Conspirator would be far closer to the truth.

Sutton, a researcher along with butler bernay and quigley all of whom are insider whisle blowers to name a few are being demonized for trying to do whats right by exposing the treachery and criminal activities at the highest level to help uphold the laws.

So why would anyone demonize them except of course those who are guilty or ignorant of the facts?

Those who control the US (and the banks/MIC) created/invented manipulated the chessboard peices for every damn war it was ever involved in.

Ken you really should at least read the material you hope to condemn before posting it and having it all thrown back at you. Sutton is well known for his meticulous well referenced work from documents found in the archives at the hoover institute and elsewhere.

I am truly surprised that you did not pay attention to the bleeding hypocrisy of those sites you posted.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 12/10/2015 12:37:17 AM >


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 12:32:02 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

I think that well past December 6 Bama, there were still quite a few Americans who didn't want to get involved. They just kept their heads down, their mouths shut and their opinions to themselves maybe ? *smile*.
From what I have read, the younger citizens and the working joes didn't mind getting into the big stoush but some of the older generation had seen it all before and didn't want any part of it and a number of the big businesses were making too much money to want to be anything but neutral.
Don't get me wrong; American war material helped Britain and her allies stay afloat and any of them who isn't grateful for that deserves to be speaking german as their first language but I remember my dad saying "Much as I dislike americans, THANK GOD FOR THE YANKS" He reckoned that if you hadn't come in when you did, WW2 would have ended very differently and WW3 was just around the corner for America

Corporate America made a ton of fucking money off Hitler and WWII. HERE

Nazi German had the 'best telephone system in Europe." How ? AT&T !! Nazi war trucks had Ford engineering and motors.

Standard Oil of NJ sold hi-test 'ethyl' gas to the Luffwaffe, or the bombers don't get off the ground. ($20 million worth)

Henry Ford got a German medal as did James Mooney a senior exec. of GM and Ford was one of Hitler's heroes. (1938)

How did German pay WWI war reparations (that was to take until 1988) and build up its military ? Western bankers and investors.

But Oh, that all changed we are told by 1939. Too late by then boys.

During a time when Time magazine naed Hitler man of the year and the world was busy pretending he wasn't a threat.

Irrelevant at best, propaganda at worst.

Rep. Louis McFadden would warn congress, that American’s were paying for Hitler’s rise to power. “After WWI, Germany fell into the hands of the German international bankers. Those bankers bought her and they now own her, lock, stock, and barrel. They have purchased her industries, they have mortgages on her soil, they control her productions, they control all her public utilities. The international German bankers have subsidized the present Government of Germany and they have also supplied every dollar of the money Adolph Hitler had used in his lavish campaign to build up a threat to the government of Bruening.

When Bruening fails to obey the orders of the German International Bankers, Hitler is brought forth to scare the Germans into submission. Through the Federal Reserve Board over 30 billions of American money has been pumped into Germany. You have all heard of the spending that has taken place in Germany, modernistic dwellings, her great planetariums, her gymnasiums, her swimming pools, her fine public highways, her perfect factories. All this was done on our money. All this was given to Germany through the Federal Reserve Board. The Federal Reserve has pumped so many billions into Germany that they dare not name the total.”


Time magazine and the media etc. were all part of the problem. That $30 billion, went to western industrialists and private bankers.

HERE



bravo!

yep its all a matter of record. WE BUILT AUSCHWITZ!



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 1:32:08 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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RealOne,

War is futile, in my opinion.

But not for the same reasons as you, which is a good indicator of why I'm a liberal and you're a conservative.

I've always found it strange why Americans will say on one hand: "we the people" and on the other hand say: "the government is nothing to do with us" to explain away an embarrassing episode and also feel that Americans are some beacon of individual rights.

I know, I know - you'll say that's what it could be if only. Except that to me isn't that far away from Socialism - we're not really like this, it's just we're being taken for a ride.

To an Englishman all of that is completely contradictory. The people who run countries are no different to the rest of us except they're in a position of power.

The real reason why war is futile is nothing to do with politics or any of that, it's because nothing changes. Maybe in a year or a decade, but give it 40 years and everything returns to normal. Germany rebuilds, Britain rebuilds, France rebuilds - who would know there had been a devastating war 1914-1918?

In the grand scheme of life it is simply nowhere near worth a Mother losing her children for something that is a mere aberration and within no time it'll all be forgotten about.

And, no, the Americans were not in some way in bed with Hitler. Some were trying to make a few quid - there's not much room for sentiment in business - and, the Americans were not our allies for 30% of the war and had no obligation to any nation.

They wouldn't be the first who traded with whomever was prepared to put money upfront.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 12/10/2015 1:33:22 PM >


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 2:10:08 PM   
Dvr22999874


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I agree NG.....................and the Swedes and Swiss didn't do too badly out of the whole deal either. I wonder how much nazi loot is still stashed away in Swiss bank vaults, among other places ?

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RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 5:12:23 PM   
thompsonx


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The two atomic bombs were not "pay back" but the most effective way to get Japan to surrender.

Not according to harry truman.

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RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 5:14:09 PM   
thompsonx


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ORIGINAL: BamaD


Yes we went into WWI unable to provide much beyond freash bodies. The one reasorce that everyone els was short of.


The russians were out of fresh meat...whodathunkit?

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 5:31:42 PM   
Dvr22999874


Posts: 2849
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The gospel according to st. Thompson; the wild Liberian twat

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RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 6:36:55 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
You folks aint gotta worry bout no 3rd world war, Im working a deal to sell 2/3rds of the human population of this rock to aliens as zoo exhibits.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 7:04:48 PM   
Dvr22999874


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You can start with our politicians Jeff........................our parliament closely resembles a zoo already, so the aliens would have a head start.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 7:24:29 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874

You can start with our politicians Jeff........................our parliament closely resembles a zoo already, so the aliens would have a head start.



Uh, they want to use the politicians as lab rats, seems that they have laws about harming semi intelligent creatures, and since politicians are known for really stupid crap.....

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Dvr22999874)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/10/2015 7:28:59 PM   
Dvr22999874


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LOL.......................trouble is that their lab findings and conclusions would only apply to politicians and would be useless on human beings

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RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/11/2015 2:24:41 AM   
MrRodgers


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Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

RealOne,

War is futile, in my opinion.

But not for the same reasons as you, which is a good indicator of why I'm a liberal and you're a conservative.

I've always found it strange why Americans will say on one hand: "we the people" and on the other hand say: "the government is nothing to do with us" to explain away an embarrassing episode and also feel that Americans are some beacon of individual rights.

I know, I know - you'll say that's what it could be if only. Except that to me isn't that far away from Socialism - we're not really like this, it's just we're being taken for a ride.

To an Englishman all of that is completely contradictory. The people who run countries are no different to the rest of us except they're in a position of power.

The real reason why war is futile is nothing to do with politics or any of that, it's because nothing changes. Maybe in a year or a decade, but give it 40 years and everything returns to normal. Germany rebuilds, Britain rebuilds, France rebuilds - who would know there had been a devastating war 1914-1918?

In the grand scheme of life it is simply nowhere near worth a Mother losing her children for something that is a mere aberration and within no time it'll all be forgotten about.

And, no, the Americans were not in some way in bed with Hitler. Some were trying to make a few quid - there's not much room for sentiment in business - and, the Americans were not our allies for 30% of the war and had no obligation to any nation.

They wouldn't be the first who traded with whomever was prepared to put money upfront.

Well you try to paint a rosy picture but war whatever else it is...is a racket. It is a profit center and not just 'few quid' but untold billion$. Then there is the small matter of death and destruction which doesn't seem to trouble but a few million of the powerless masses. (look at the drone war now)

The international bankers (western) financed WWI, Hitler, Lenin and ran all of the way to the bank with the proceeds because taxpayers foot the bill and when needed...added even more in debt.

Kant said it and it is true. To paraphrase: Power (political/elites) send young men off to other countries to invade them as if they belong to nobody. The elites and powerful sit back in their palaces with their luxuries, wine and women to enjoy the proceeds. Proving that history will forever...be written in blood.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/11/2015 2:30:41 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


The two atomic bombs were not "pay back" but the most effective way to get Japan to surrender.

Not according to harry truman.

The US invited the Japanese to witness a test. They refused. We dropped a bomb, wiped out an entire city. The Japanese refused to surrender. There was a failed coup in Japan to keep fighting. We dropped a second bomb. The emperor was allowed to stay as a figurehead. The Japanese surrendered.

There would have been as many as 10 times the deaths (both sides) if a US invasion had been necessary. Those bombs saved millions of lives.

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 12/11/2015 2:32:45 AM >


_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Pearl Harbor Day - 12/11/2015 1:31:26 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

RealOne,

War is futile, in my opinion.

But not for the same reasons as you, which is a good indicator of why I'm a liberal and you're a conservative.

I've always found it strange why Americans will say on one hand: "we the people" and on the other hand say: "the government is nothing to do with us" to explain away an embarrassing episode and also feel that Americans are some beacon of individual rights.

I know, I know - you'll say that's what it could be if only. Except that to me isn't that far away from Socialism - we're not really like this, it's just we're being taken for a ride.

To an Englishman all of that is completely contradictory. The people who run countries are no different to the rest of us except they're in a position of power.

The real reason why war is futile is nothing to do with politics or any of that, it's because nothing changes. Maybe in a year or a decade, but give it 40 years and everything returns to normal. Germany rebuilds, Britain rebuilds, France rebuilds - who would know there had been a devastating war 1914-1918?

In the grand scheme of life it is simply nowhere near worth a Mother losing her children for something that is a mere aberration and within no time it'll all be forgotten about.

And, no, the Americans were not in some way in bed with Hitler. Some were trying to make a few quid - there's not much room for sentiment in business - and, the Americans were not our allies for 30% of the war and had no obligation to any nation.

They wouldn't be the first who traded with whomever was prepared to put money upfront.

Well you try to paint a rosy picture but war whatever else it is...is a racket. It is a profit center and not just 'few quid' but untold billion$. Then there is the small matter of death and destruction which doesn't seem to trouble but a few million of the powerless masses. (look at the drone war now)

The international bankers (western) financed WWI, Hitler, Lenin and ran all of the way to the bank with the proceeds because taxpayers foot the bill and when needed...added even more in debt.

Kant said it and it is true. To paraphrase: Power (political/elites) send young men off to other countries to invade them as if they belong to nobody. The elites and powerful sit back in their palaces with their luxuries, wine and women to enjoy the proceeds. Proving that history will forever...be written in blood.


You think 'International Bankers' were responsible for WW1 at the expense of unwilling people?

I would have thought that an American would understand the sentiment of pride and fear considering you tend as a people to place such stock in a flag?

Are the bankers making you rally behind the flag?

You're miles away from the answer, mate.

The answer is 'the people'. In all countries, not just the United States. Not the bankers or anyone else. We always have a choice and I'm afraid that there are a decent proportion of people in any given country who choose to rally behind the flag, usually at odds with all reason.

I suppose it's a nice story though to claim: "it's the bankers" - that way everyone else is absolved of blame.


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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