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Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 7:43:01 AM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline 		In a social scene, bar, mall, wotever, there are predators looking for prey. Ted Bundy preyed upon his victims in very public places, as did Dahmer and Gacey, although Bundy was much more successful in charming his victims out of the very public settings and killing them.

If you consider the risks in the general public you really should consider the risk in the kink world.

If you met someone at a bar in a nilla setting and they broke out rope, you'd run if you could. However, in the kink world, it is the rope that may excite you, but when the rope goes on, you're at the mercy... complete, utter, helpless mercy of the rigger.

NPD and Sociopaths are EXTREMELY charismatic and charming. If such a predator is lurking in your circle, they are going to be well learned in WIITWD, tell amazing tales, and impress you with their knowledge base. Building the knowledge and vocabulary to pass oneself off as a skilled Top/Dom is just a matter of research on the internet. You could read the accounts from many of our prestigious members, go to the other site and read about and watch video of other prestigious folk, and incorporate those tales into your personal "résumé". As long as your tale is accurate, detailed, knowledgable, and you participated/preformed in "Obscuria USA, Nowhere Novabrinsk, or Somewhere UK" people young or new to the lifestyle usually will take you at your word and don't know the importance of vetting anyway.

Even very experienced members of the community are, at some point, confronted by obsession, stalking, harassment, which usually turns into the "then the cops came and cuffed the crazy fucker" story, or, sometimes, the FBI intervenes before it becomes very dangerous or fatal. It happens to people that have been in the lifestyle for a very long time. Wizened, safe, savvy people that have calls in place, that only attend events that have a rigid vetting policy, sometimes danger slips under the fence, but the advantage the experienced folk have, is they do not often get lured into a "private" session.

Bearing that in mind, if the very experienced lifestyle folk fall in the path of danger, what becomes of the eager doe-eyed people that are so new to all this and so eager to dive in.

What this post can bring to the board is safe tips for the new and old. I recommend "vetting" "safe calls" and "no private sessions, and I am confident that our members (not socks) will share stories and safety tips with you here ;)

_____________________________

Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 9:19:13 AM   
preytolife


Posts: 138
Joined: 11/29/2010
From: LaLa Land
Status: offline 		When I was new I was always told that safe calls were so useful...In practice not so much. It becomes old hat after a while and everyone involved ends up excusing those 5, 10, 20, 45 minutes that you just forgot. And if someone really wanted to take you or kill you then a safe call can only do so much. I also ran into a logical problem--- to actually do some good I was told to get pictures of drivers licenses. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't give someone a picture of my drivers license. I've also run into far more instances of outing than I have anything else so I tend to not stress safe calls as a way to keep safe.

Instead I would write down on a piece of paper who I'm meeting, where (including multiple locations), my contact details and ANY details I have about them. And you can find a lot about someone using google image search, popular handles and their phone number/email. I'd hand it over to a friend just in case. Standard procedure for me is always meet in public at least the first time, don't go home with them or play with them at the first meeting. Less likely to be pressure to do things that maybe you don't wanna do. I tell my vanilla friends to do the same thing.

I've known people that will meet someone in public but tell a friend to sit at the bar and just watch. Checking references IMO is a good thing. Ask questions and be skeptical of people. Most of the time if they're hiding something they're gonna no nuclear long before you ever to meet them. I'm well connected enough that I know how to check most references and if I can't then I know people that definitely can.

I went through a time in my life where I did a LOT of private sessions with people. If they start deliberately pushing buttons or almost but not quite doing socially inappropriate things then there's an indicator that they might be gauging boundary setting. As a personal preference I also avoid narcissists because that kinda crazy just ain't worth messing with. If they have delusions of grandeur or say weird shit then they probably ARE a weird shit.

_____________________________

"No man is so good as to be free from all evil, nor so bad as to be worth nothing." - Norse Proverb

(in reply to ExiledTyrant)
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RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 9:41:51 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		This is a good topic.

But how do you propose people actually vet?

How would they do it? Especially if they are new and inexperience? Especially when meeting a stranger online?

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/14/2015 9:43:08 AM >

(in reply to ExiledTyrant)
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RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 9:50:11 AM   
ExiledTyrant


Posts: 4547
Joined: 12/9/2013
From: Exiled
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

This is a good topic.

But how do you propose people actually vet?

How would they do it? Especially if they are new and inexperience? Especially when meeting a stranger online?


Munches.

_____________________________

Gnothi Seauton
To lead, first follow: Aurelius, Epictetus, Descartes, Sun Tzu, to name a few.

Semper fidelis (which sometimes feels like a burden)

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 10:04:55 AM   
littleladybug


Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline 		While vetting, references and safe calls are good tools to have, IMO absolutely nothing beats one's own common sense and gut instinct.

If it feels "off", guess what? It most probably is.




(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 10:30:24 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I'm really trying to avoid the phrase, 'you know the funny thing is...' because there's really nothing funny about it. If a person takes a good tour through the Alternative Lifestyles in the News section where there has been a victim, the perpetrators all have something in common. They all had profiles on CM, Fet, or both. A lot of them found their victims by using these sites. Frankly, there will probably be more.

The reason this works is because the criminals sound just like us. We kinky people have among us where (some) folks with rape fantasies, hot kidnapping scenarios, people putting folks in cages, or folks that want to be caged. It's real easy for the bad guys to fit right in. The very same stuff that we do for fun with consent is the stuff that the criminals do (and more) without consent.

The bad part? It's getting worse and we can't fix it. The best we can do is try to keep people's awareness up that yes, people are getting dead out there. We have to be vigilant about this topic because, excuse my language, but there are some unhinged f^ckers out there and not in the fun good time kind of way. It's really something we all need to be thinking about.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to preytolife)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 10:31:29 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant

Munches.

So if someone is meeting a stranger from online, they should invite them, first meeting location to be at a munch together? How does that vet though?


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/14/2015 10:32:24 AM >

(in reply to ExiledTyrant)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 10:38:40 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
If it feels "off", guess what? It most probably is.

The issue is, the ones who are "experts" at doing this and have been doing this regularly, have it down to a skill. And also they have the patience. The first predator I met on CS, dated me without sexual involvement for 7 months. We did vanilla things, and we didn't even kiss, or touch each other. He seemed like a perfectly nice and good guy. He was a great listener and supportive towards me, seriously, he was very likable and appeared to be harmless and very sweet and respectful. I never once felt he was creepy or disrespectful. He was completely normal, great sense of humour, great social skills.

I realise when they see a challenge, they are patient and will plan well in accordance to the female character. I see this the same as, vanilla guys who play bets with their friends, on if they can get laid with a woman. When they play these games, it takes months for them to achieve their goals and they have the patience to seem to do alot of genuine things to win her heart.

Most women here still don't believe in sex before marriage, so when these guys play these games, they really need patience to convince her to have sex before marriage.

I see the same kind of patience and pattern with my own encounter.

(in reply to littleladybug)
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RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 10:39:44 AM   
Spiritedsub2


Posts: 3316
Joined: 7/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug

While vetting, references and safe calls are good tools to have, IMO absolutely nothing beats one's own common sense and gut instinct.

If it feels "off", guess what? It most probably is.


This. Bdsm relationships are just relationships. The dangers aren't different than meeting men in vanilla life. Vanilla men can tie you up, beat you, rape and kill you. Use the same self-protective senses you'd use in any new situation. I think people get so blinded by the theater of bdsm their common sense flies out the window.

_____________________________

Don’t grieve. Anything you lose comes round in another form.
~ Rumi

Laughing Dolphin

(in reply to littleladybug)
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RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 10:46:18 AM   
littleladybug


Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: littleladybug
If it feels "off", guess what? It most probably is.

The issue is, the ones who are "experts" at doing this and have been doing this regularly, have it down to a skill. And also they have the patience. The first predator I met on CS, dated me without sexual involvement for 7 months. We did vanilla things, and we didn't even kiss, or touch each other. He seemed like a perfectly nice and good guy. He was a great listener and supportive towards me, seriously, he was very likable and appeared to be harmless and very sweet and respectful. I never once felt he was creepy or disrespectful. He was completely normal, great sense of humour, great social skills.




I'm not saying that things don't happen- a predator is a predator.

What I'm essentially saying is that putting too much credence in what a "community" says about someone can give a very false sense of security. That people "know" this person means what? A skilled manipulator can pull the wool over the eyes of a group of people just as easy as they can a single person.


(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 10:57:02 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		I don't put a lot of stock in references.

I always made it really clear that there was no possibility of play or sex happening on the first meeting. (You'd be surprised how many guys that weeds out)

I would meet for coffee and I bought my own drink. I stayed for a maximum of an hour and walked alone to my car.

Then I would go to meet friends or go shopping. I didn't go straight home.

I was very active in the local socials (The LA social was huge at the time - it would get around 200 people during the summer)

After meeting one person at the social, I never did it again. He was difficult to dislodge, kept following me around, asked all of my friends questions about me and essentially ruined my night.

If the person you're meeting isn't active in the local community, then it's difficult to vet the person. The best you can do it be cautious and aware...and stick to your own rules.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 12/14/2015 10:59:03 AM >

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to littleladybug)
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RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 11:16:18 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Take your time getting to know them. People usually don't remember what lies they told you three weeks before, so when you bring the subject up again and the response is totally different, that's a red flag.

As far as listening to your gut goes, that only works if you're only attracted to healthy people. If you tend to pick abusers, then your gut isn't going to say anything. Fix yourself first so that the unhealthy behaviors aren't things you find attractive any longer.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 11:34:38 AM   
littleladybug


Posts: 1082
Joined: 5/30/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExiledTyrant
Wizened, safe, savvy people that have calls in place, that only attend events that have a rigid vetting policy, sometimes danger slips under the fence, but the advantage the experienced folk have, is they do not often get lured into a "private" session.



I would suggest that there's absolutely nothing inherently wrong with wanting to play privately. Lots of people (myself included) do not play publicly.

Again, it boils down to actually getting to know someone and using common sense when you do.





(in reply to ExiledTyrant)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 11:58:12 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I have always used a gut reaction. But as it says on my avatar over there
<- I did it the wrong way.
When I started doing this stuff there wasn't an internet. There were no munches or groups. If you wanted kink you either checked the blue pages (which were impossible to find in a small town), or you waited for that feeling of, idk.. excitement.
I learned to be selective in who I dated. I had plenty of dates that just did not bring out any feelings of lust. Those men were lovely but I usually just kept them dangling while stressing the friendship.
The few that made me want to kneel and suck cock brought out my wild side.
I relied on my gut instinct which never proved me wrong, even when things seemed like they might go awry.

Once I spent a week shackled to a hotel bed with just enough room to get to the bathroom if I needed it. That was a risky decision I made when I was feeling destructive and willing to take an end if the fates directed. But even though the guy was not my normal date he turned out to be a good guy regardless of his posture.
When the internet made it easy to find other kinksters I learned how to be more cautious. I still kept my sexual adventures with men who meant something to me but I started to allow play with non-relationship guys. The problem was how to keep play, play, and not sex. Once again my talent for evaluating my target came into play. I met people in groups, at munches, and sometimes from the internet. That meant I had to establish rules.
Anyone I met on the net was met in person without any sort of d/s dynamic. If they wanted to meet me with lowered eyes, no panties ect to "prove" my submissiveness. For me that cued me BS radar and I stayed away. Or if I was feeling bitchy I met them and turned them around. It is amazing how many men are really bottom wannabees.
If I did feel a desire to go further there were several steps prior to getting naked. I had a cop (detective) from some central CA town send me his card which gave me a chance to meet him and verify who he was. We met at a hotel bar and chatted. I took a look at his license verified it was him and sent his card to my address before getting naked. There was a dicey moment when, after he cuffed my hands behind my back, he said "oh oh, I left my keys in the car", and went down to get them. So there I was naked, cuffed and helpless. Fortunately I am somewhat of an escape artist and I was able to get out of the cuffs. He did come back with keys in hand and I was able to get the cuffs I had back on before he noticed. We had a nice night of my getting smacked with his belt and he turned down my offer of a BJ as per our original deal.
This was a risky deal for me, but I had info prior and my evaluation of him when we met was pretty good.
Basically I have relied on my own skills of escaping bad situations, and my third eye which helps me see good or bad.
I have been lucky. And really I find I am much more fearful about letting my heart invested than I am about what happens to my body.

For new people who are getting into it I say don't be like me, mostly because there are a lot more predators now with research skills who can talk a good game. But I also tell them to listen to your gut not your pussy or dick. I still think it is lame to meet under the idea of submission or dominance. Let that come when YOU feel it, after you have met and gotten to know the other person.






< Message edited by Missokyst -- 12/14/2015 12:00:17 PM >

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to littleladybug)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 12:36:05 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I don't put a lot of stock in references.

I always made it really clear that there was no possibility of play or sex happening on the first meeting. (You'd be surprised how many guys that weeds out)

I would meet for coffee and I bought my own drink. I stayed for a maximum of an hour and walked alone to my car.

Then I would go to meet friends or go shopping. I didn't go straight home.

I was very active in the local socials (The LA social was huge at the time - it would get around 200 people during the summer)

After meeting one person at the social, I never did it again. He was difficult to dislodge, kept following me around, asked all of my friends questions about me and essentially ruined my night.

If the person you're meeting isn't active in the local community, then it's difficult to vet the person. The best you can do it be cautious and aware...and stick to your own rules.

You're actually one of the people I was hoping would join the thread. I happen to think you're pretty good about relating stuff like when folks are getting into the 'call the cops' territory. You don't make it sound like it's all sugar and roses because it's not.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 12:51:38 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		My situation when I first started out was that I was already in a relationship (so I wasn't looking) and I started off in a really big city (which means lots of freaks). I had the benefit of watching the mistakes made by others.

Meeting someone to engage in D/s, BDSM goes beyond meeting in the vanilla world. It tends to be a sexually charged situation and unlike a vanilla meet - you already know something sexual about the person you are meeting.

Add to that the mysteries of entering a new community where you don't know "the rules". The urge to be accepted into this new community means that you believe what everyone tells you about "the rules".

What's worse is some people never figure out that "the rules" are "all made up and the points don't matter".

This tends to make submissives (both male and female) particularly vulnerable.

The reality is that before there's a relationship, your boundaries are important and should be respected. If the person you're meeting doesn't believe that too....then don't meet them. (And this applies to either side of the kneel)


I also forgot to add to my list of meeting rules: I never engaged in any dynamic before meeting. I wouldn't call him "Sir", I wouldn't do tasks, I wore whatever I wanted to wear to the meeting. That way there was never any confusion created by submission being revoked.



_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 12:58:56 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		Ah, again they ban me on that other site for raising these issues openly-when you ask to make convo public as rules allow it all have refused thusfar - and asking pre(a)y tell me what is being done about this - oh my. Haughty naughty I. The ban I can circumnavigate in a moment but I refuse to do so if I cannot be there in my original format – yes – I have mailed directly and been cut off at the pass with no credible reply or one allowed to be public domain – one must spread the word. I do it for the genuine honest souls. The rest, liars cheats, predators attention whoremongers, and so on, I view as fake-socks

They infest the ether, many have wormed their way into power – tis there way – and they will smote all that directly challenge them and there kind since the dawn of time-internet – or have a vast social circle surrounding them. There is always a higher concentration in the fetish world, but they exist on all sites, seeking their meek prey – like me in the muffin aisle at Tesco’s – oh, they are there too, the queue for the bus, sat next to you at work, eyeing my body up whilst I idle the street corner selling it for muffin cash.

Interesting thread...you wasted it with your munch comment.

I have just recently discovered, this very eve this site has a feature where users can verify themselves. So few takers. But a little progress I guess. Best to have it added in search function = better progress. Not infallible by no means, but always start at the beginning..do you not think dear readers.

Ah those of doe eyes – they are steered imo like the titianic on the other site – I don’t know the mods on here. But to be fair some are only interested in disaster.

Gets out his abacus and glass of chardonnay. My recent health aside. I last attended a munch 11 years ago, club 10 years ago…Many reasons in part bad stereotypes, but no means all, cheats, liars and those who would exploit the week and vulnerable….but that could be any pub / club for balance.

I have been here since the beginning of time I have zero plans to ever attend a munch or club, ever again.

I speak to no creature indepth without fundamental minimal requirements mentioned on my profile ( I think) and that’s just to speak to me…I advise all of doing likewise.

But few listen to a mad rambling old fool with a cat problem.

Wise sages – there are many people no matter the site- that cannot differentiate they simply lack the capacity to do so….So it’s not always as easy as use common sense, gut reaction etc – for they are bereft of that and always will be.

(in reply to Missokyst)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 2:28:29 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Mad rambling is common on the web.
As far as people being bereft of common sense or gut reactions I tend to think of that as culling the herd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire


But few listen to a mad rambling old fool with a cat problem.

Wise sages – there are many people no matter the site- that cannot differentiate they simply lack the capacity to do so….So it’s not always as easy as use common sense, gut reaction etc – for they are bereft of that and always will be.




_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 2:30:34 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedsDesire

Ah, again they ban me on that other site for raising these issues openly-when you ask to make convo public as rules allow it all have refused thusfar - and asking pre(a)y tell me what is being done about this - oh my. Haughty naughty I. The ban I can circumnavigate in a moment but I refuse to do so if I cannot be there in my original format – yes – I have mailed directly and been cut off at the pass with no credible reply or one allowed to be public domain – one must spread the word. I do it for the genuine honest souls. The rest, liars cheats, predators attention whoremongers, and so on, I view as fake-socks

They infest the ether, many have wormed their way into power – tis there way – and they will smote all that directly challenge them and there kind since the dawn of time-internet – or have a vast social circle surrounding them. There is always a higher concentration in the fetish world, but they exist on all sites, seeking their meek prey – like me in the muffin aisle at Tesco’s – oh, they are there too, the queue for the bus, sat next to you at work, eyeing my body up whilst I idle the street corner selling it for muffin cash.

Interesting thread...you wasted it with your munch comment.

I have just recently discovered, this very eve this site has a feature where users can verify themselves. So few takers. But a little progress I guess. Best to have it added in search function = better progress. Not infallible by no means, but always start at the beginning..do you not think dear readers.

Ah those of doe eyes – they are steered imo like the titianic on the other site – I don’t know the mods on here. But to be fair some are only interested in disaster.

Gets out his abacus and glass of chardonnay. My recent health aside. I last attended a munch 11 years ago, club 10 years ago…Many reasons in part bad stereotypes, but no means all, cheats, liars and those who would exploit the week and vulnerable….but that could be any pub / club for balance.

I have been here since the beginning of time I have zero plans to ever attend a munch or club, ever again.

I speak to no creature indepth without fundamental minimal requirements mentioned on my profile ( I think) and that’s just to speak to me…I advise all of doing likewise.

But few listen to a mad rambling old fool with a cat problem.

Wise sages – there are many people no matter the site- that cannot differentiate they simply lack the capacity to do so….So it’s not always as easy as use common sense, gut reaction etc – for they are bereft of that and always will be.


Before they bounce me out of this joint (again) I'd like to tell some of you folks that I enjoyed talking with you. I'm pretty sure I'll be kicked to the curb for what I'm about to say.

We're going to talk about something called "DMAC" reports.

What is a DMAC report?

A DMAC report is making a claim about a pic that someone else posts. It might be your work because you were the person who clicked the button on the camera, you were the top who did the work, or something else in this field. Even if you are the "subject" of the photo, that doesn't mean copyright belongs to you. If a copyright release hasn't been signed, the other person can use your work without your consent. (In case folks haven't noticed, my work is being used on another profile.)

There's a catch. If you file a DMAC report, (I've filed eight) you must enter your mailing address. This information is available to the person who stole your work, and it kind of sucks.

That is my work, folks.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to WickedsDesire)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Trojan Horse: Predatory Subterfuge - 12/14/2015 8:09:58 PM   
WickedsDesire


Posts: 9362
Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		I am a tasty remnant of time and space am I not –patient zero...i have said never ever quoth I ,ever, lest i set about heretics with mace and vigour

i will leave it here

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 20
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