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Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer bas... - 1/1/2016 11:08:47 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-post-office-banking-20160102-story.html

Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer basic banking

Until the late 1960s, you could walk into a post office and deposit money in a savings account at the same time that you bought stamps or mailed packages.

An outgrowth of the financial panic of 1907, the no-frills postal bank surged in popularity during the Great Depression. But as commercial banks expanded and offered higher interest rates, the United States Postal Savings System became as outdated as a black-and-white movie.

Now, in the wake of another financial crisis, there's a new push for the U.S. Postal Service to deliver basic banking services again.

The effort is led by consumer advocates, financial reform groups, postal labor unions and some leading liberals, such as Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.). They say that offering services such as paycheck cashing, bill payment and free ATMs would provide cash-strapped consumers with an affordable alternative to payday, auto-title and other short-term loans that have been criticized for high fees.

"We have millions and millions of low-income people who have to go to these payday lenders and pay outrageous interest rates. They're getting ripped off right and left," Sanders said on ABC's "Jimmy Kimmel Live" in October.

"We can have our Postal Service provide modest banking to low-income people where they can cash their checks and they can do banking," Sanders said. "I think it will help the post office and it will help millions of low-income people."

The Postal Service's inspector general's office agrees. It estimates that expanding financial services beyond the current limited offerings, which include money orders and international funds transfers, could pump $8.9 billion a year into the financially struggling agency.

"The Postal Service has a public mission to serve citizens and support the growth of commerce," the inspector general's office said in a report last spring that presented five potential approaches for expanded banking services. "And while it is required to cover its costs, profit is not its key motive."

The American Postal Workers Union has formed a coalition, the Campaign for Postal Banking, that in December delivered a petition with more than 150,000 signatures to Deputy Postmaster General Ronald A. Stroman urging the agency to expand its financial offerings.

"Big banks are turning their backs on families," union President Mark Dimondstein said. "Without bank accounts, they fall prey to predatory lenders."

Postmaster General Megan J. Brennan hasn't ruled out the idea of expanded banking services after her predecessor dismissed the suggestion in January as he headed into retirement. But she has some reservations.

"While we currently provide our customers with certain financial services, including money orders, electronic funds transfers and cashing of U.S. Treasury checks, our core function is not banking," the agency said in a written statement.

The service said it has an "infrastructure that is not ideal as a banking platform," and cited a decline in visits to post offices. Plus, any investments outside of its core function of mail delivery "will likely be scrutinized from both public policy and regulatory perspectives," the agency added.

The Postal Service is an independent agency that since 1971 has been required to rely on sales of stamps and other services to pay for its operations. But the growth of the Internet and competition from private shippers, such as FedEx Corp. and UPS, have taken a major toll on the agency's finances.

After peaking in 2006, total mail handled by the Postal Service has declined 27%. That has led to budget deficits, exacerbated by a congressional requirement to pre-fund retirement benefits for its workers, that have forced the agency to borrow up to its allowable limit of $15 billion from the U.S. Treasury.

Expanded financial services offer "the single best opportunity for new revenue," according to the inspector general's office.

It's not a far-fetched idea. Post offices in many other nations, including Britain, France, China and Japan, also serve as banks. And from 1911 to 1967, the United States Postal Savings System offered accounts with annual interest capped at 2%, to reduce competition with commercial banks.

Deposits at U.S. postal banks surged during the Great Depression and World War II, when many consumers viewed the accounts as more secure than those in commercial banks. But as those banks opened more branches and increased interest rates after the war, the postal banking system fell out of favor and the federal government shut it down.

The Great Recession has led to calls for the revival of postal banks as many cash-strapped households have been forced to seek payday loans and other alternative financial products.

A Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. survey found that about 9.6 million households in 2013 had no one with a bank account. An additional 24.8 million households had accounts but also used alternative financial services, such as payday loans.

"It's harder for people with less money to use their money, and much more expensive," said Mehrsa Baradaran, a University of Georgia professor and author of the book "How the Other Half Banks: Exclusion, Exploitation and the Threat to Democracy."

Many poor areas lack bank branches, but most communities have a post office, said Katherine Isaac, a consultant to the postal workers union who has been organizing the Campaign for Postal Banking.

"Even if we put all the payday lenders out of business, there's a concern that there's still no place to go," Isaac said. "The banks aren't there. They've abandoned those communities. But the post office is there."

The Postal Service is the most popular federal agency — 84% of respondents have a positive view of it, according to a recent Pew Research Center poll.

"I would guess that a lot of people would trust the post office teller with their money more than these Wall Street traders," said Baradaran, an advocate for postal banks. "There's a sense that the post office is a dinosaur, but it's not a shark."

Congress would have to pass legislation allowing post offices to take deposits and make loans. But the Postal Service could use existing authority to increase some offerings, such as expanding check cashing to include other government and payroll checks and broadening money orders into bill payment service, supporters said.

"This is not a cash cow for the post office," Baradaran said. "But it could save them."

Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 2:18:57 AM   
Termyn8or


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For you, I think that is a pretty liberal slant. So be it.

For one, when dealing online or whatever, the way to make sure someone gets their money, with minimal charges, is a postal money order. They can call an 800 number to confirm it is good.

It used to be that you could cash postal money orders at the post office, but I am not sure about now.

Really, if they just offer the basics like low cost check cashing and money orders at low cost to pay bills and buy stuff online whatever, so people do not have to have a bank account to live, that would be good.

And then, at the very least people who get VA or SS could get their money there instead of paying all kinds of fucking fees to predatory banks. That is if they send paper checks, or better yet, just pick up their money. I know then there is a chance of robbery but...

T^T

(in reply to ifmaz)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 3:45:24 AM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
For you, I think that is a pretty liberal slant. So be it.

For one, when dealing online or whatever, the way to make sure someone gets their money, with minimal charges, is a postal money order. They can call an 800 number to confirm it is good.

It used to be that you could cash postal money orders at the post office, but I am not sure about now.

Really, if they just offer the basics like low cost check cashing and money orders at low cost to pay bills and buy stuff online whatever, so people do not have to have a bank account to live, that would be good.


Why should the post office (the people who deliver mail) involve themselves in banking? How would a USPS bank account eliminate or deter payday loans -- by offering loans of their own, because subprime lending has worked out so well in the past?

This is a horrible idea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
And then, at the very least people who get VA or SS could get their money there instead of paying all kinds of fucking fees to predatory banks. That is if they send paper checks, or better yet, just pick up their money. I know then there is a chance of robbery but...


Or use a credit union and direct deposit.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 5:33:06 AM   
servantforuse


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I also think this is a terrible idea. The article fails to mention the cost to expand banking at the USPS. Hiring additional employees and revamping offices in thousands of buildings will cost way more than any new revenue that might be brought in.

(in reply to ifmaz)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 6:57:55 AM   
KenDckey


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OK I am gonna admit that I am old. I remember buying US Savings stamps. You put them in a book and when the book was full you could cash it in with a little interest. It was more like mini treasury notes for kids to have savings accounts without a banking institution. I have a credit union myself and have all my check direct deposited and my bills paid from there. But I can see some value to this type of banking.

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 9:40:38 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz

Expanded financial services offer "the single best opportunity for new revenue," according to the inspector general's office.




and what kind of government is that again? When the government is a business rather than regulating these crooks?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 10:33:30 AM   
joether


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Sounds like a good set of ideas. I would like to see a much more in-depth white paper on the entire business translation process. By having things stated in specific terms could we determine better the actual effects. Would help to see what percentage of the population really handles their financial problems with the Postal Service. Do like the idea of the Postal Service taking in $8.9 billion dollars that would have gone to the greedy banks!

Not having to pay $2-5 for using an ATM would be nice when outside of the area my bank normally serves. Would force those private banks to either stop gouging the customer or lose all foreign traffic to their bank (i.e. lose market share).

Given the idea that the Postal Service is gaining funding via transactions, does show, the operation could run without much start up cash from the Federal Government. Sounds like a win all around for American citizens. Of course the GOP/TP and their minions will oppose it.....

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 10:36:05 AM   
Phydeaux


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Terrible idea.

Just what we need - the government entering the banking industry. Or rather invading it. Yet another example of government in search of a problem.

Whats wrong with the idea?

Other than

Unionized banking?
The same government pushing banking, at the same time .. regulating?
The fact that we are over represented in banks and branches?

People don't have bank accounts for the same reason a lot of them didn't have health insurance. They didn't want them. Making them federal won't change that.

(in reply to ifmaz)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 10:37:25 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz
Expanded financial services offer "the single best opportunity for new revenue," according to the inspector general's office.

and what kind of government is that again? When the government is a business rather than regulating these crooks?


Hate to break this to you, but the Federal Government *IS* a business entity. Has been one since the US Constitution came into existence. Take the US Military for example. They are a business entity. They buy and sell things. I think you can understand the sort of things they buy (from toilet paper to nuclear carriers). They 'sell' protection from threats domestic and foreign. When you have a budget in the trillions, your a business entity whether you want to admit it or not. The federal budget *DOES have a real effect on the national economy!

(in reply to Real0ne)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 11:36:34 AM   
Termyn8or


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"This is a horrible idea. "

Hold on here. First of all I said nothing about accounts. you bring in de money, dey give you a postal money order, you mail it to whoever the hell you want, and put their name on it. They take it to de post office and present it and give it to them and de give de person de money.

You can cash your SS check there, or just collect de money without having a bank account. I am not talking about having any accounts or anything of the sort here.

And now I am going to tell you why. This never happened to me but it happened to a couple of friends of mine.

You overdraw at the bank like two bucks. Them motherfuckers should have bounced the check or refused to honor the debit request, but they make more money by paying it anyway and then charging you fees. In one case I knew it was $30 every three business days. Remember these are the same motherfuckers who told people to stop making their house payment to qualify for a refi and then took their houses EVEN IF THEY SHOWED UP IN COURT WITH CASH TO PAY IT OFF, they refused the money and said in open court that they refused the money because the house was worth more than what was owed and they could make more money. Nice guys, right ?

So now, banks are offering companies all kinds of free shit to FORCE their employees to accept direct deposit, so now, if you don't pay that $200 generated by a $2 overdraft they SHOULD NOT HAVE PAID, you cannot get paid from your employer.

What's more, they are not supposed to be able to garnish a SS retirement check, but if you are forced into direct deposit, that bank account is vulnerable and can be seized.

These days with people falling on hard times, the last fucking thing they need is to have to pay $200 for a $2 deficiency. In fact fees should be regulated like interest. But they are not.

Anyway, like I said there would be no accounts, but people could pick up their money from SS or even a job, and send and receive postal money orders to facilitate non local commerce.

The problem is the banks got too much power. Look at the terms of your banks account. They can change the terms anytime they want if they detect you have an extra fucking penny in your pocket. Remember Milburn Drysdale from The Beverly Hillbillies ? Well these motherfuckers make him look like Ghandi.

T^T

ETA : Also, anyone forced into direct deposit by an employer should have the option of picking up their pay at any post office. This shit with direct deposit it bullshit. In fact there was lawsuit in PA over this because PA law said you have to offer an employee a paper check or cash. At this point I bet the banking lobby got that law struck down.

I advocate that EVERYONE demand a paper check. Fuck them, you are doing something for them the way they want it done,. they can pay you the way YOU want it done.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 1/2/2016 11:41:53 AM >

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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 11:37:18 AM   
MrRodgers


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No, where the US govt, is concerned, it is only here not to tax me and then to cover my reckless banking losses. It is to pay me not to farm or guarantee me a profit for my products that have no market and if necessary...create a market by law. OH and for that market, put tariffs on any foreign competition to protect my govt. guaranteed profit.

Otherwise, get govt. out of business and let me send or create all of the jobs I need, to or in India or China and report my profits in Ireland. Oh and before I forget, tax Johnny and his kids and their kids for 13 A/C carriers et all...to protect my entitled ass.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 11:58:12 AM   
Termyn8or


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Mr R, let me guess, you do not believe that things are not as right as they should be.

Well put a two digit exponent on that and you get the idea where I am at. I advocate drastic measures by the People, but not at this time. In fact the right conditions will probably not exist in my lifetime, but sooner or later it is going to happen.

I won't be in it because I am useless.

T^T

(in reply to MrRodgers)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 12:13:59 PM   
Termyn8or


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Tuck your head between your legs and kiss your ass goodbye because the world is ending, we agree on something :

"Sounds like a good set of ideas. I would like to see a much more in-depth white paper on the entire business translation process."

Yeah, but a ONE PAGE white paper. Cash postal MOs, SS checks, income tax refunds, dole out the cash to people whose employers forced them into direct deposit, things like that. Limited, like the government should be. But protecting some from predatory banking practices.

I have a skill that allows me to demand to be paid any damn way I choose. I could make them pay me in gold if I want. But unfortunately the job market is not like that for most people.

And stooopit motherfuckers go "Well I like direct deposit and using debit because I cannot get mugged". Bullshit, now they tie you up and throw you in the trunk of your own car and torture you for the PIN number(s). Yup, that sounds alot fucking better don't it ?

Simple, when you go to pick up your pay bring a friend. Very few people get robbed when they are not alone. Also carry a big stick or a gun. fuck it, what are the odds of getting busted ? And if you have to shoot some fucking thug, just walk away. Or get in your car and drive away at normal speed. And of course use bullets that deform, like hollowpoint or flats or whatever so there is no ballistics. And if they catch you just tell them you did not have time for the red tape. And they will, unless the thug follows you out. And he will because he knows there are cameras there.

And we need about 50 % of all people on the street armed, concealed, so that there is a BIG risk in trying to rob anyone.

My late great friend Jim Watt said "I am big enough to hold on to my own money". You want to be treated like a child with Mommy holding on to your money for you ? That is fucking insulting to me.

So even with the basic agreement, I am sure you disagree with the details...So what.

T^T

(in reply to joether)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 12:18:23 PM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz
Expanded financial services offer "the single best opportunity for new revenue," according to the inspector general's office.

and what kind of government is that again? When the government is a business rather than regulating these crooks?


Hate to break this to you, but the Federal Government *IS* a business entity. Has been one since the US Constitution came into existence. Take the US Military for example. They are a business entity. They buy and sell things. I think you can understand the sort of things they buy (from toilet paper to nuclear carriers). They 'sell' protection from threats domestic and foreign. When you have a budget in the trillions, your a business entity whether you want to admit it or not. The federal budget *DOES have a real effect on the national economy!


Hate to break it to you - you clearly have no idea what a business is. Not surprising considering your posts. Buying and selling things is *not* the definition of a business.


(in reply to joether)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 12:43:22 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Mr R, let me guess, you do not believe that things are not as right as they should be.

Well put a two digit exponent on that and you get the idea where I am at. I advocate drastic measures by the People, but not at this time. In fact the right conditions will probably not exist in my lifetime, but sooner or later it is going to happen.

I won't be in it because I am useless.

T^T

Well, to sum it up rather quickly.....

If anything truly catastrophic is going to happen and it may be necessary or.....if the people don't willingly go like the ignorant, sheepish, politically partisan, rent-seeking, marshmallows they've become, then we have a little while because of the stubborn US dollar. When the govt. deliberately allows [it] to go with some forthright act, then the govt. gets the chaos it desires and the party is truly over. (things like USPS banking are so far out on the fringe, it too is a meaningless a toss-up)

The only way the US has gotten away with its debt-based, consumption, for-profit society so far, is because still 80% of the world's currency reserves are US dollars and only because of the world-wide assessment of the industrious American labor force.

Look at the precipitous fall of the Euro and the world's disdain for SDR ('special drawing rights') whatever the fuck they are...and ones quickly sees the immediate future and well, we maybe...maybe, have one generation left.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 3:36:24 PM   
ifmaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"This is a horrible idea. "

Hold on here. First of all I said nothing about accounts. you bring in de money, dey give you a postal money order, you mail it to whoever the hell you want, and put their name on it. They take it to de post office and present it and give it to them and de give de person de money.


We already have this by way of money orders and certified/cashier checks. We don't need a government agency, whose employees will be paid with taxpayer money, to handle this; 7-11 and Western Union, to name two, can, and have, done this for decades. My local grocery store offers money orders for 50 cents. Why should the government invest taxpayer money in the infrastructure needed when other companies already do it at low cost?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
You can cash your SS check there, or just collect de money without having a bank account. I am not talking about having any accounts or anything of the sort here.
...
These days with people falling on hard times, the last fucking thing they need is to have to pay $200 for a $2 deficiency. In fact fees should be regulated like interest. But they are not.


Why should the taxpayers, by way of the government, pick up the tab for someone who cannot/does not/will not balance their budget/checkbook? Why did your friends have 'overdraft protection' on their accounts to begin with? Why did your friends not use a credit union, whose fees are usually lower than that of larger banks?

What would you propose taxpayers, by way of the government, do when someone overdraws on their hypothetical USPS bank account, ignore it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Anyway, like I said there would be no accounts, but people could pick up their money from SS or even a job, and send and receive postal money orders to facilitate non local commerce.


Where do the people get the money to send and receive these postal money orders in the first place if the USPS bank does not offer accounts?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
The problem is the banks got too much power. Look at the terms of your banks account. They can change the terms anytime they want if they detect you have an extra fucking penny in your pocket. Remember Milburn Drysdale from The Beverly Hillbillies ? Well these motherfuckers make him look like Ghandi.


My credit union, indeed anyone I have a financial relationship with, notifies me whenever the terms of the contract change. I am then allowed a finite period of time to determine whether or not I agree to these terms. If I disagree, because the terms are materially adverse to me, I can end my contract and go elsewhere.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
ETA : Also, anyone forced into direct deposit by an employer should have the option of picking up their pay at any post office. This shit with direct deposit it bullshit. In fact there was lawsuit in PA over this because PA law said you have to offer an employee a paper check or cash. At this point I bet the banking lobby got that law struck down.

I advocate that EVERYONE demand a paper check. Fuck them, you are doing something for them the way they want it done,. they can pay you the way YOU want it done.


If this USPS bank does not have an account, how could people possibly pick up their direct deposited paycheck at any post office? Where would it be deposited?

If I opt for a paper check I have to drive out to my credit union, wait in line, and deposit it. More than likely I'd have to re-explain how I'd like the funds distributed as well, or log in to the bank's website later and do it myself. As I automatically send a certain amount to a money market account, I'd have to do this manually as well. I'd also be assessed a $7 monthly fee for my checking account, a fee waived by using direct deposit. What exactly am I gaining by demanding a paper check?

As for paper check or cash, what company has large quantities of bills (and coins!) on-hand to support employees opting to be paid in cash? Do you have any idea what kind of administrative nightmare that would be?

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/2/2016 9:37:34 PM   
Termyn8or


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"Why should the taxpayers, by way of the government, pick up the tab for someone who cannot/does not/will not balance their budget/checkbook?"

Hold the fuck on here. For a TWO DOLLAR overdraft they SHOULD HAVE DECLINED they collect over $200 in fees.

You think that is OK ?

T^T

(in reply to ifmaz)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/3/2016 4:04:50 AM   
joether


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: ifmaz
Expanded financial services offer "the single best opportunity for new revenue," according to the inspector general's office.

and what kind of government is that again? When the government is a business rather than regulating these crooks?

Hate to break this to you, but the Federal Government *IS* a business entity. Has been one since the US Constitution came into existence. Take the US Military for example. They are a business entity. They buy and sell things. I think you can understand the sort of things they buy (from toilet paper to nuclear carriers). They 'sell' protection from threats domestic and foreign. When you have a budget in the trillions, your a business entity whether you want to admit it or not. The federal budget *DOES have a real effect on the national economy!

Hate to break it to you - you clearly have no idea what a business is. Not surprising considering your posts. Buying and selling things is *not* the definition of a business.


This coming from a person that failed at science, economics, and political thought on a number of threads in the past? Not just by myself but others?

The US Government is a business entity. It does businesses with tens of thousands of companies each year. Or just go to dictionary.com, and look at example #3:

"a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern."

Ever heard of a government auction? How about defense contracts? Infrastructure creations and improvements? These are examples of the US Government conducting business transactions with individuals and companies.

(in reply to Phydeaux)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/3/2016 9:43:06 AM   
ifmaz


Posts: 844
Joined: 7/22/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Why should the taxpayers, by way of the government, pick up the tab for someone who cannot/does not/will not balance their budget/checkbook?"

Hold the fuck on here. For a TWO DOLLAR overdraft they SHOULD HAVE DECLINED they collect over $200 in fees.

You think that is OK ?

T^T


If one has "overdraft protection" they authorize the bank to cover charges that exceed their available balance. Without overdraft protection these charges would be declined. Overdraft protection is essentially a short-term loan based solely on signature. If one charges more than their available balance, assuming the charges are not fraudulent (in which case the bank would waive NSF fees), by definition they are not balancing their budget or checkbook. Thus, your friends made a decision to authorize the bank to account for their inability to balance their budget. I would hope your friends learned from this and have since declined overdraft protection on their accounts.

Before "overdraft protection" I believe this was called "floating a check". Most states have civil and criminal penalties for writing bad checks.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Advocates push for the U.S. Postal Service to offer... - 1/3/2016 10:15:18 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux
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ORIGINAL: joether
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ORIGINAL: Real0ne
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ORIGINAL: ifmaz
Expanded financial services offer "the single best opportunity for new revenue," according to the inspector general's office.

and what kind of government is that again? When the government is a business rather than regulating these crooks?

Hate to break this to you, but the Federal Government *IS* a business entity. Has been one since the US Constitution came into existence. Take the US Military for example. They are a business entity. They buy and sell things. I think you can understand the sort of things they buy (from toilet paper to nuclear carriers). They 'sell' protection from threats domestic and foreign. When you have a budget in the trillions, your a business entity whether you want to admit it or not. The federal budget *DOES have a real effect on the national economy!

Hate to break it to you - you clearly have no idea what a business is. Not surprising considering your posts. Buying and selling things is *not* the definition of a business.


This coming from a person that failed at science, economics, and political thought on a number of threads in the past? Not just by myself but others?

The US Government is a business entity. It does businesses with tens of thousands of companies each year. Or just go to dictionary.com, and look at example #3:

"a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern."

Ever heard of a government auction? How about defense contracts? Infrastructure creations and improvements? These are examples of the US Government conducting business transactions with individuals and companies.



Thats the great thing about "debating" you johuffingether. Your brain is so damaged from the fumes.

So lets use the very definition YOU provide to ridicule and lampoon you. I'll highlight the important parts for you.

"a person, partnership, or corporation engaged in commerce, manufacturing, or a service; profit-seeking enterprise or concern."

Clearly the government is not a person, it is not a partnerhip and it is not a corporation. I'll leave you to dictionary.com to figure out the meaning of those words. So that only leaves the last portion of your definition. See, let me spell it out for you in big, bold letters. PROFIT-SEEKING.

Since in the past you have demonstrated that you don't understand what profits are - I'll define that for you as well - using your own source.

Profit - "the monetary surplus left to a producer or employer after deducting wages, rent, cost of raw materials, etc.:"

You gave as an example Government Auctions. As if somehow the giveaway that its a GOVERNMENT auction could some how hide the fact that it wasn't in fact a BUSSINESS auction. I know. Kind of oxymoronish, but since I"m explaining it to a moron, I'll use small words.

Since you don't seem to grasp the concept, a government has the power of coercion. It has the ability to compel. It can compel you to perform military service, to pay taxes, to buy stupid healthcare insurance.

A business, on the other hand, does not have the power to compel. A Business offers a good or service to a customer in exchange for money. It does so in the hope of earning a PROFIT by which it can renumerate the founders of the business who invested time and money into that particular enterprise.

Do you see the difference?

So a government can issue defense contracts in order to buy ships and tanks - but that does not make it a business. It is not seeking to make a profit.
A government can even build infrastructure - roads and bridges. That does not make it a business either.

A business is a profit seeking enterprise that offers a good or service for money. A government has the power of compunction.

Get it?

(in reply to joether)
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