RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (Full Version)

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Phydeaux -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/10/2016 5:34:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Now, why do moron cops shoot at unarmed black men or black children that may have a toy gun, the answer is really quite simple.

The fuckwads should not be cops in the first fucking place OR the cops have been working areas where they have no clue as to who to worry about and who not to worry about too fucking long and need to be somewhere else.

There is a term for the second problem, coming straight out of the military.

Oversensitiveness to the environment. It means the trooper has been in a hot zone so damn long he shoots before he actually sees he is in a bad situation. In the case of the military, it means some poor non combatant suddenly popping up with anything remotely resembling a weapon gets stepped on, hard, fast and fatally.

Some call it trigger happy, others call it jumpy, still others call it what it is, situational paranoia.

For cops working in a lot of inner city areas, it means that they have to be concerned with some 13 year old that thinks popping a cop is gonna earn him street cred. So rather than getting killed, he is gonna shoot first. If he is working in a predominately black neighborhood, the poor kid that wasnt out to hurt anyone is gonna get killed.

In parts of the LA metro area, the poor kid is Latino. In parts of New York city, he may be Latino, Chinese, or whatever ethnic group is prominent in that area.

But you dont hear about them. You hear about the African American kid killed by a white cop. Why, because the media knows that with the US history of civil rights fuck ups, it is gonna make news around the world.

Like I said earlier, when someone comes up with a "Any lives matter" movement, I will support it 100%. Until then, as long as the same colored people are killing each other, its just a fucking publicity media circus that dont mean shit.


Well said jlf.




Phydeaux -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/10/2016 5:44:29 PM)

I want to point out again - the land around the hammonds ranch was not taken from the indians; it was not part of the deed Teddy Roosevelt did.

This was lands the BLM forced ranchers to sell to them by
a). revoking grazing permits
b) revokig water rights
c). Building illegal fences.

I'm reposting lucy's earlier cite to refresh the facts.

(a1) By the 1970’s nearly all the ranches adjacent to the Blitzen Valley were purchased by the US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and added to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. The refuge covers over 187,000 acres, stretches over 45 miles long and 37 miles wide. The expansion of the refuge grew and surrounds to the Hammond’s ranch. Approached many times by the FWS, the Hammonds refused to sell. Other ranchers also choose not to sell.

(a2) During the 1970’s the Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), in conjunction with the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), took a different approach to get the ranchers to sell. Ranchers were told: “grazing was detrimental to wildlife and must be reduced”; 32 out of 53 permits were revoked and many ranchers were forced to leave. Grazing fees were raised significantly for those who were allowed to remain. Refuge personnel took over the irrigation system claiming it as their own.

(a3) By 1980 a conflict was well on its way over water allocations on the adjacent privately owned Silvies Plain. The FWS wanted to acquire the ranch lands on the Silvies Plain to add to their already vast holdings. Refuge personnel intentionally diverted the water bypassing the vast meadow lands, directing the water into the rising Malheur Lakes. Within a few short years the surface area of the lakes doubled. Thirty-one ranches on the Silvies plains were flooded. Homes, corrals, barns and graze-land were washed a way and destroyed. The ranchers who once fought to keep the FWS from taking their land, now broke and destroyed, begged the FWS to acquire their useless ranches. In 1989 the waters began to recede; now the once thriving privately owned Silvies plains are a proud part of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge claimed by the FWS.

(a4) By the 1990’s the Hammonds were one of the very few ranchers who still owned private property adjacent to the refuge. Susie Hammond in an effort to make sense of what was going on began compiling facts about the refuge. In a hidden public record she found a study done by the FWS in 1975. The study showed the “no use” policies of the FWS on the refuge were causing the wildlife to leave the refuge and move to private property. The study showed the private property adjacent to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge produced four times more ducks and geese than the refuge. The study also showed the migrating birds were 13 times more likely to land on private property than on the refuge. When Susie brought this to the attention of the FWS and refuge personnel, her and her family became the subjects of a long train of abuses and corruptions.

(b) In the early 1990’s the Hammonds filed on a livestock water source and obtained a deed for the water right from the State of Oregon. When the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) found out the Hammonds obtained new water rights near the Malhuer Wildlife Refuge, they were agitated and became belligerent and vindictive toward the Hammonds. The US Fish and Wildlife Service challenged the Hammonds right to the water in an Oregon State Circuit Court. The court found the Hammonds legally obtained rights to the water in accordance to State law and therefore the use of the water belongs to the Hammonds.*

(c) In August 1994 the BLM & FWS illegally began building a fence around the Hammonds water source. Owning the water rights, and knowing that their cattle relied on that water source daily, the Hammonds tried to stop the building of the fence. The BLM & FWS called the Harney County Sheriff department and had Dwight Hammond (Father) arrested and charged with “disturbing and interfering with” federal officials or federal contractors (two counts, each a felony). Dwight spent one night in the Deschutes County Jail in Bend, and a second night behind bars in Portland. He was then hauled before a federal magistrate and released without bail. A hearing on the charges was postponed and the federal judge never set another date.

(d) The FWS also began restricting access to upper pieces of the Hammond’s private property. In order to get to the upper part of the Hammond’s ranch they had to go on a road that went through the Malhuer Wildlife Refuge. The FWS began barricading the road and threatening the Hammonds if they drove through it. The Hammonds removed the barricades and gates and continued to use their right of access. The road was proven later to be owned by the County of Harney. This further enraged the BLM & FWS.

(e) Shortly after the road & water disputes, the BLM & FWS arbitrarily revoked the Hammond’s upper grazing permit without any given cause, court proceeding or court ruling. As a traditional “fence out state” Oregon requires no obligation on the part of an owner to keep his or her livestock within a fence or to maintain control over the movement of the livestock. The Hammonds still intended to use their private property for grazing. However, they were informed a federal judge ruled, in a federal court, the federal government did not have to observe the Oregon fence out law. “Those laws are for the people, not for them”.

(f) The Hammonds were forced to either build and maintain miles of fences or be restricted from the use of their private property. Cutting their ranch in almost half, they could not afford to fence the land, so the cattle were removed.

(g) The Hammonds experienced many years of financial hardship due to the ranch being diminished. The Hammonds had to sell their ranch and home in order to purchase another property that had enough grass to feed their cattle. This property included two grazing rights on public land. Those were also arbitrarily revoked later.





jlf1961 -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/10/2016 6:41:04 PM)

What you neglected to mention:

The current grazing rights and number of cattle were agreed to by the ranchers and the BLM:

quote:

As the need for a comprehensive management plan for the refuge was realized, ranch operators were concerned about the possibility of further reductions in grazing allotments. Drafting of a new management plan began in 2008, and was a collaborative process involving varied stakeholders in the refuge's future, including ranch operators. The final plan, completed in 2013 and intended to inform refuge operations for the following 15 years, was accepted by both refuge managers and cattle owners as an agreeable compromise between potentially opposing interests in the land. Grazing was allowed to continue under the plan, and is seen as a valuable tool in some areas to combat invasive plants that threaten the refuge's habitat quality; however, the extent of grazing may be reduced in specific areas if it is scientifically shown to be detrimental to the refuge's wildlife.
source

One more point, both cites and links by lucy are right wing, ultra conservative websites, neither of which are known to be impartial. Its the same as some liberal citing huffpost or MSNBC. Both sites rate up there with Beck and Alex Jones.

Not only do these sites not mention the reason that grazing in some areas were reduced, as a direct result of trying to preserve some archaeological sites (as soon as the sites are studied, size established and any finds cataloged as to location of find etc) grazing rights will be increased if not back to full number of animals.

The BLM has done the same on public lands in New Mexico, Arizona, Utah and Colorado to preserve Anasazi sites as well, returning grazing rights to ranchers after the work has been done and areas of historic significance isolated from any possible damage by lifestock (including wild horses.)

You might also consider researching the number of ranchers that went bankrupt, and not due to lost grazing rights on public land, prior to BLM land purchases.

The final point, the whole area is smack in the middle of the Oregon High Desert. I have been through the area driving a truck, a antique breed of cattle like the Longhorn couldnt survive well up there. Actually, the broken lava feilds around Grants New Mexico is better ground that area is.

And the irrigation system that the ranchers are screaming about? Do you have any clue as to what decades of constant irrigation does to the soil, especially in areas like high desert? It leaches the minerals out of it.

The central valley of California is discovering that. Hell the ranchers around Artesia Wells Texas discovered that 60 years ago.

So, it boils down to this, give the ranchers what they want, turn the high desert from a semi productive region to a zero productive region and then everyone goes belly up OR do exactly what the hell they are doing.

I was raised on ranches, I know what it means to keep land in production. I also have seen what happens when a few short sighted idiots go hog wild and ruin the land for anything for at least 70 years, and thats if you are lucky.

There are tracts in west Texas that were over grazed, over irrigated and ruined during the cattle boom of the sixties and seventies. The only thing growing on it are yucca and prickly pear. Mesquite wont even take root on it.

I am not a tree hugging nature fanatic by a long shot, but I know what is and is not good when it comes to land. Large tracts of the Oregon high desert is played out as bad as HUGE tracts of the central California Valley which gave a great comeback from an age old party guest, Valley Fever. With no grass to hold the soil, the dust is carrying Valley Fever spores across half the state.




ifmaz -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/10/2016 6:58:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
...
Now, why do moron cops shoot at unarmed black men or black children that may have a toy gun, the answer is really quite simple.

The fuckwads should not be cops in the first fucking place OR the cops have been working areas where they have no clue as to who to worry about and who not to worry about too fucking long and need to be somewhere else.

There is a term for the second problem, coming straight out of the military.

Oversensitiveness to the environment. It means the trooper has been in a hot zone so damn long he shoots before he actually sees he is in a bad situation. In the case of the military, it means some poor non combatant suddenly popping up with anything remotely resembling a weapon gets stepped on, hard, fast and fatally.

Some call it trigger happy, others call it jumpy, still others call it what it is, situational paranoia.
...


"Situational paranoia" may account for some police shooting cases but does in no way account for the Zachary Hammond (no relation, as far as I know, to the Oregon Hammonds) shooting or the recent case of an officer holding a firearm to a person's head while accusing him of illegally parking.




MrRodgers -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/10/2016 7:09:47 PM)

I just read up on the whole thing and yes, it is very sad for the Hammonds. Also, the US govt. has in many ways, overstepped their authority and if adjudicated fully, would itself be liable.

What I find strange about all of this, is that the whole incident is well past the original intent of simply preserving the land for a wildlife refuse.

I am a tinfoil guy now and have been for decades and I am afraid this is just another taste of (small step toward) the militarization of the federal govt. At the very least, this violates the 10th amendment (maybe the 8th too) and just one of my problems with the neo-conservative movement is that they are on board with kind of federal encroachment.




Phydeaux -> RE: Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters (1/10/2016 10:01:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of some national parks. But why isnt the bI'll of this land in state hands?

Maybe that should be the case but to what ends ? The difference is minuscule and might even strain state budgets. Percentage of income and employment from the various uses of federal/state/recreational lands.

Bureau of Leisure and Motorhomes - October 2004: for the first time in the history of the agency, the Bureau of Land Management collected more revenue in recreational fees than annual grazing fees. (I imagine it's greater in the 10 years since) This despite the fact that recreational fees are often collected through voluntary pay stations, while grazing fees are mandatory and enforced, and BLM does not charge fees for many recreational offerings on BLM lands. 13

In Nevada (the state with more federal land than any other outside of Alaska), federal public lands grazing provides 1,228 jobs. By comparison, one casino in Las Vegas employs 37,000 people.

Alternative uses of federal public lands contribute much more income to local and regional economies than livestock grazing. In the Central Winter Ecosystem Management Area in the Kaibab Plateau, Arizona, dispersed recreation is worth $200,000 annually to the local and regional economies; fuel wood is worth $48,984; livestock grazing is worth $45,988; and deer and turkey hunting is worth $1,324,259.

As part of his research on public lands grazing economics, Dr. Thomas Powers produced two tables of data that are widely cited to refute the contention that public lands grazing is essential to western state economies.

Interesting charts showing how little federal land is still used at all for grazing and other purposes.

HERE





We agree.




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