RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police

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RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police - 7/19/2006 11:10:23 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
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Alumbrado,

I was simply trying to have an adult discussion and I would have thought you would have welcomed one as well.

I have never said police NEVER prosecute, I have said it is quite rare and since this whole thread was started by people who wanted to host SMALL PRIVATE parties in their own homes and the examples people have posted were years old and for GIANT parties...I would have thought that would have at least put some weight behind my arguments but I guess not.

quote:

which is one possible reason why some pay clubs have chosen to prohibit penetration.

Again, you have failed to back up this claim, we don't know why most of those clubs were raided, some were due to zoning violations. There risks, there are always risks, I never said there were no risks.

What we are discussing is how real that risk is for someone desiring to host their own parties and I have yet to see that it is much of a risk at all as long as you don't kill and eat your guests or rent out submissives.

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RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police - 7/20/2006 10:24:17 PM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

And all you have to do to fail to see, is to keep your eyes tightly closed.

The original thread was not only about small private parties, it was about scene parties.

Several people commented that they were OK with it unless there were the risk of illegality. A couple of people pointed out that it could be illegal.

And you have been provided with several links (which you refuse to respond to after demanding them), which refute any notion that most states don't consider sex and money to be prostitution.

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=487979

Those links also make it clear that size and location don't matter... exchanging anything of value, and penetration, do matter in the eyes of the law.

Yet you still haven't explained why others are supposed to take that risk because you deem it insignificant based on your experience and opinion.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/20/2006 10:29:09 PM >

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RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police - 7/20/2006 11:43:41 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Alumbrado,

Any chance you could dial back the vitriol and have an adult conversation?

There are 50 states in America, most have several big cities, some of those cities even have multiple S&M groups throwing parties. So there are something like 100 or 200 S&M parties every weekend in America. Somehow 10 or so raids over the last six years doesn't exactly sound like a crack down or a high risk endeavor.

As for your connection of the raids to sexual penetration, I have yet to see that link established at all and I look forward to civilly discussing it with you. Since most state laws define prostitution much broader than penetration, I also fail to see where you back up that claim as well.

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RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police - 7/21/2006 1:10:55 AM

Wickad

Posts: 428
Joined: 3/12/2005
Status: offline

Up here in Calgary, AB, CA we did have a bit of an issue surrounding a bath house a few years back. The charges where dropped once the prosecutor realized that the proprietor was very serious about taking it 'up the food chain' As well, Canada recently brought down a high court decision that said 'swing clubs' are legal.

Being that most of the laws surrounding play parties, swing clubs, and bathhouses fall under the 'decency' acts.... it seems that neither side (us or the law) are willing to make a move on the issue. Having been a part of a group that puts on 'mostly' public play parties, we've never had a problem with them. On occassion the people who run the community centers don't want to rent to us, but that's about it.

Wickad

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RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police - 7/21/2006 7:22:36 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Alumbrado,

Any chance you could dial back the vitriol and have an adult conversation?

There are 50 states in America, most have several big cities, some of those cities even have multiple S&M groups throwing parties. So there are something like 100 or 200 S&M parties every weekend in America. Somehow 10 or so raids over the last six years doesn't exactly sound like a crack down or a high risk endeavor.

As for your connection of the raids to sexual penetration, I have yet to see that link established at all and I look forward to civilly discussing it with you. Since most state laws define prostitution much broader than penetration, I also fail to see where you back up that claim as well.

If by vitriol, you mean calmly posting the links proving you wrong, no, there is no chance...I already posted them, your claims that I didn't notwithstanding.
The elements of prostitution in at least 49 states include exactly what I said, deny it all you like, you are arguing against reality.

If by adult conversation, you mean telling you that you are right, most states will not arrest someone having sex in a place they paid to get into for prostitution.... nope, it isn't true, and I'm not going to pretend it is true, just to placate you. And it is highly unlikely that the clubs who have 'no penetration' policies will do so either.

In fact, given your fabrication of statements I never made, dodging of questions, cherry picking of distorted examples, as well as moving of goal posts, I think we can take you out of the adult conversation category completely.

You went out on a limb, and it broke off ...Instead of trying to distort reality to match your fantasy, it is time to get over it and move on.

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RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police - 7/21/2006 12:33:28 PM

Kree

Posts: 118
Joined: 6/13/2006
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CD
There was a party that was raided in SW Florida 4 or 5 years ago. It was being held in a warehouse and was an event that happened on a fairly regular basis. I am not positive what triggered the raid, but around that time, they were pursuing someone in the area for porn involving unmentionables. During the raid the police discovered hidden cameras that were taping the scenes and the action in general. The police confiscated the tapes, thus causing many sleepless nights for a lot of people. Even though they announced that the people on the tapes would not be chased down, there was a great deal of concern. I dont think the police tried to track anyone down, since they were mainly after one person. Perhaps someone on CM from that area knows the story better than I remember it.

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RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police - 7/21/2006 3:03:51 PM

EvilGeoff

Posts: 523
Joined: 8/24/2005
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Regarding the San Diego Six... from their Defense Fund web site..."This is the "official page" maintained for information about the six individuals cited during the Club X San Diego play party held on October 29th, 1999."

There was a raid in Broward County of Trapeze II, a swingers club in January of 1999.

Paddleboro was July 8, 2000.

August 11, 2001, the TES 30th anniversary celebration was "visited" by New Jersey State Police because the venue had a liquor license. If I recall correctly, no one was arrested, but the event was certainly disrupted. Mr. Warren may be able to provide further information about that particular incident.

In 2002, 5 BDSM conventions were targetted by the CWA (Concerned Women of America) and other Religious Right groups: My Vicious Valentine and International Mr. Leather in Chicago, Bound by Desire in Michigan, Tribal Fire in Oklahoma, and Beat Me in St. Louis in Missouri. In the swing community, where more penises (penii?) and pussies get together than in the BDSM scene, Behind The Scenes and Club Zinc were raided and closed down and swing clubs in Phoenix AZ were harrassed with threats of closure and police scrutiny.

In 2003 CWA went after My Vicious Valentine and IML again, along with Tribal Fire. DC's Black Rose event was forced to change venues, Fetish in the Fall was cancelled after the police chief in Kenner, LA told hotels there not to host the event. The Labryinth in Denver was shut down over "zoning violations".

In 2004, H. Richard Quadracci, of NYC was investigated by NYPD for running a S&M club out of his apartment. In August a Michigan judge issued restraining conditions that effectively shut down Whipstock, a fund-raising event held in Oakfield Township. An Allentown, PA police officer was charged with assualt & battery for beating his girlfriend in an SM scene.

2005 gave us Reel One, a swing club in Indianapolis being shut down after undercover officers observed sexual activity there, and a judge ordering the club closed. Barbra Nitke sued the Justice Department over the Communications Decency Act. A father had his parental rights terminated because of his BDSM lifestyle.

Make no mistake about, our lifestyle is under attack constantly. These are just a few of the hundreds of incidents that happen each year. Very few get any national or international attention, one or two may appear as blips on your local evening news or in your local paper. The rest you never see... Adult toy store closed, Sex Club Shut Down, Divorce case turns ugly, Cross Dresser fired from Grocery store. Things you might see but dismiss out of hand because it wasn't in your neighborhood, it didn't happen to anyone you know, it wasn't a business you patronized...

Local, state and federal law enforcement WILL investigate and prosecute cases when complaints are made. Politicians like to make hay about "cleaning up" neighborhoods and a high-profile sex case is good for gathering conservative votes. There are things you can do to _minimize_ the risk, but you simply cannot ignore it or pretend it isn't there. Too dadgum many people and businesses have found that out the hard way.

YIK,
- Geoff

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RE: S&M/BDSM play parties and the police - 7/21/2006 4:58:12 PM

dorsaisgirl1

Posts: 156
Joined: 3/13/2006
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i agree with evilgeoff this lifestyle is constantly under atack .there are many groups who feel that it is there moral obligtion to stop what they feel to be wrong .and these groups dont just atack this lifestyle but anything they find immoral i know of a video store that was actuly run out of bissness becouse they had the movie striptease on the shef .

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