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ORIGINAL: bounty44

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

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ORIGINAL: bounty44

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

but but but, the babies....sanctity of live

non-sequiter: 1.a conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.

nah you just dont want to justify "life of the innocent unborn" with those you dont give a rats arse about once they are born still innocent...
You want them born, you should be up with helping them IN their life....

didn't address the non-sequiter and then you added what is called an unwarranted assumption:

"The fallacies of presumption also fail to provide adequate reason for believing the truth of their conclusions. In these instances, however, the erroneous reasoning results from an implicit supposition of some further proposition whose truth is uncertain or implausible."

or just plain ol' this:

"Making a presumption means assuming something is true or false without getting all the information necessary for verification."

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ORIGINAL: joether

Easy way to solve the poor's problems; particularly those on welfare: Raise the Federal Minimum Wage to $15/hour. Would allow the majority of people with children to be just above the federal poverty level, while giving an increase to consumption for everyone else. All that buying power would create many more low tier jobs (which it sounds, Maine, has a huge lack of), which would increase middle class jobs within three months.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

but but but, the babies....sanctity of live

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sanc·ti·ty
ˈsaNG(k)tədē/
noun
the state or quality of being holy, sacred, or saintly.
"the site of the tomb was a place of sanctity for the ancient Egyptians"
synonyms: holiness, godliness, blessedness, saintliness, spirituality, piety, piousness, devoutness, righteousness, goodness, virtue, purity; formalsanctitude
"the sanctity of St. Francis"
ultimate importance and inviolability.
"the sanctity of human life"
synonyms: inviolability; More

quote:


inviolable
adjective in·vi·o·la·ble \(ˌ)in-ˈvī-ə-lə-bəl\
Simple Definition of inviolable
Popularity: Top 40% of words
: too important to be ignored or treated with disrespect

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ORIGINAL: satanscharmer
This whole thing is not entirely a new idea, forcing work or work-training for welfare. Not much different than poorhouses - providing food, clothing and shelter in exchange for work. That worked so well.
I'm all for teaching a man how to fish. The problem is, he has to be willing to learn. If someone is unable or unwilling to learn, whatever the reason (lack of trust, ambition, understanding...), I have a difficult time letting them starve. It seems that's where the disconnect is. In today's time, with the ability and means, letting someone slip through the cracks because they don't do what we think they should do seems unconscionable.

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...
To me, the question shouldn't be 'how do we stop people from relying on the system,' but instead should be 'how do we prevent people from relying on the system'.

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: satanscharmer
This whole thing is not entirely a new idea, forcing work or work-training for welfare. Not much different than poorhouses - providing food, clothing and shelter in exchange for work. That worked so well.
I'm all for teaching a man how to fish. The problem is, he has to be willing to learn. If someone is unable or unwilling to learn, whatever the reason (lack of trust, ambition, understanding...), I have a difficult time letting them starve. It seems that's where the disconnect is. In today's time, with the ability and means, letting someone slip through the cracks because they don't do what we think they should do seems unconscionable.

If someone is unwilling to work, or to learn, that person isn't "[slipping] through the cracks." That person is willfully making his/her way through the cracks. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, right? If someone is choosing to not take care of him/herself, then who are we to intervene?

It's a completely different story if someone lacks the capacity to work or to learn. Those people don't have a choice. We need to take care of them. Will people attempt to game the system? Of course. And, those people should be immediately ejected from the program once they are caught.

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To me, the question shouldn't be 'how do we stop people from relying on the system,' but instead should be 'how do we prevent people from relying on the system'.

I'm going to assume you meant "prevent people from needing to rely on the system" (correct me if I'm wrong).

Obviously, if we didn't want people to rely on the system, we could get rid of the system (I wouldn't support that). I think it's good that we have a safety net for those that need it. At the moment, money is being taken from taxpayers to pay for those programs. I'd much rather see charities step up to the plate and take the programs over, paying for it out of donations (tax money no longer spent would either pay down the debt, or not get taken from the taxpayer in the first place).

You're always going to have a segment of the population who will diligently work towards doing the least amount they can to get by. I have a great disdain for that when their getting by requires other people's money.

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ORIGINAL: satanscharmer

I've always had difficulty grasping why that's so difficult to grasp.

To claim "sanctity of life" yet placing restrictions on it, hardly sounds like life is that highly regarded.

quote:


sanc·ti·ty
ˈsaNG(k)tədē/
noun
the state or quality of being holy, sacred, or saintly.
"the site of the tomb was a place of sanctity for the ancient Egyptians"
synonyms: holiness, godliness, blessedness, saintliness, spirituality, piety, piousness, devoutness, righteousness, goodness, virtue, purity; formalsanctitude
"the sanctity of St. Francis"
ultimate importance and inviolability.
"the sanctity of human life"
synonyms: inviolability; More

quote:


inviolable
adjective in·vi·o·la·ble \(ˌ)in-ˈvī-ə-lə-bəl\
Simple Definition of inviolable
Popularity: Top 40% of words
: too important to be ignored or treated with disrespect

"The phrase “sanctity of life” reflects the belief that, because people are made in God’s image (Genesis 1:26), human life has an inherently sacred attribute that should be protected and respected at all times. While God gave humanity the authority to kill and eat other forms of life (Genesis 9:3), the murdering of other human beings is expressly forbidden, with the penalty being death (Genesis 9:6).

Humanity was created in God’s image, but sin has corrupted that image. There is nothing inherently sacred in fallen man. The sanctity of human life is not due to the fact that we are such wonderful and good beings. The only reason the sanctity of life applies to humanity is the fact that God created us in His image and set us apart from all other forms of life. Although that image has indeed been marred by sin, His image is still present in humanity. We are like God, and that likeness means that human life is always to be treated with dignity and respect."
-http://www.gotquestions.org/sanctity-of-life.html




Deuteronomy 15:11 For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

Matthew 5:42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

Romans 15:1 We who are strong have an obligation to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

Isaiah 58:10-11 Feed the hungry, and help those in trouble. Then your light will shine out from the darkness, and the darkness around you will be as bright as noon.The LORD will guide you continually, giving you water when you are dry and restoring your strength. You will be like a well-watered garden, like an ever-flowing spring.

Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

Philippians 2:4 Do not be concerned about your own interests, but also be concerned about the interests of others.




I must have missed the fine print somewhere that mentions "unless they are capable". With all of that...watching people starve because they don't help themselves doesn't sound like life is truly being respected.

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Sanctity of life is a religious expression; and the precepts to help the poor are religious precepts. What is required for religious purposes may not be identical to what is good policy for a state.

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

then its not a sanctity of life issue is it? It is not as she indicated.

But then again what about some of those who get foodstamps, and welfare, and so on, some of those cant help themselves and are you looking to help them, or is that more asswipe?

Like the Wal-Mart folks.

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ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yes. And?

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ORIGINAL: mnottertail

And how about the corporations, the technical managers, the stockholders, the ultra wealthy who are using your dollars because it would cut into their billions pile to pay a living wage, you ok with giving your taxes to them?

The ne'er-do-wells on these programs we can agree have no need to be on them. However, we throw away more money on other things that should be looked at. One isn't breaking me, and one is. The issue is how to find people with the sack to fix it.

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ORIGINAL: satanscharmer

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Sanctity of life is a religious expression; and the precepts to help the poor are religious precepts. What is required for religious purposes may not be identical to what is good policy for a state.

That's exactly what I believe.

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ORIGINAL: satanscharmer

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ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

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ORIGINAL: satanscharmer
This whole thing is not entirely a new idea, forcing work or work-training for welfare. Not much different than poorhouses - providing food, clothing and shelter in exchange for work. That worked so well.
I'm all for teaching a man how to fish. The problem is, he has to be willing to learn. If someone is unable or unwilling to learn, whatever the reason (lack of trust, ambition, understanding...), I have a difficult time letting them starve. It seems that's where the disconnect is. In today's time, with the ability and means, letting someone slip through the cracks because they don't do what we think they should do seems unconscionable.

If someone is unwilling to work, or to learn, that person isn't "[slipping] through the cracks." That person is willfully making his/her way through the cracks. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink, right? If someone is choosing to not take care of him/herself, then who are we to intervene?

It's a completely different story if someone lacks the capacity to work or to learn. Those people don't have a choice. We need to take care of them. Will people attempt to game the system? Of course. And, those people should be immediately ejected from the program once they are caught.

I agree with some of the things you have written here. The problem I have with this I can only best describe by comparing their situation to that of institutionalized criminals: that's all they know and rehabilitating them to think otherwise is a failed approach. Children on welfare are more likely to become adults on welfare...then we suddenly start taking an interest.

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...
To me, the question shouldn't be 'how do we stop people from relying on the system,' but instead should be 'how do we prevent people from relying on the system'.

I'm going to assume you meant "prevent people from needing to rely on the system" (correct me if I'm wrong).

Obviously, if we didn't want people to rely on the system, we could get rid of the system (I wouldn't support that). I think it's good that we have a safety net for those that need it. At the moment, money is being taken from taxpayers to pay for those programs. I'd much rather see charities step up to the plate and take the programs over, paying for it out of donations (tax money no longer spent would either pay down the debt, or not get taken from the taxpayer in the first place).

You're always going to have a segment of the population who will diligently work towards doing the least amount they can to get by. I have a great disdain for that when their getting by requires other people's money.

Again, relying on the community is not a new idea. It's when those resources were getting depleted that the government needed to step in. If we could get a better handle on poverty, I think it would be great if we could move it back to the communities (while keeping a safety net).

There are people everywhere (I work with a few) that do the least amount just to get by. Some just make it look like they're even doing that much. It's frustrating, I agree. It makes me wonder why they're so different