LadyPact
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ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence
It touches on a very important subject to me and that few people have been willing to discuss with me. The people I've been with have never really been too interested since it doesn't concern them (People on the lighter side of kink with a switch personality or just vanilla people) and I haven't really pushed it and people on here or elsewhere seem to be generally unwilling to explore themselves to confront these things.
Now that you're writing the topic, rather than just the private conversations, maybe that will change. There are definitely some forums posters that I'd like to hear their thoughts regarding the matter. Let's hope for the best.
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Now the question concerns the building of trust in such a relationship where especially sadistic humiliation is included. Where traits commonly associated with sociopaths are explored.
So in this video Stefan mentions a very interesting point. He mentions how her using the soup as punishment precludes any building of trust or a deeper connection and leads to conflict and abuse. I completely agree with this assessment.
I hit something about the soup being used as punishment but I must have watched the wrong three minutes. (It's early. That could be entirely my fault.)
I do have some discomfort about the comparison with a child/parent relationship to adults engaging in BDSM. A punishment for a child, depending on severity, is more likely to be seen as abusive. However, I think it's an apples and oranges comparison, even though both situations are aptly termed punishment. When you're dealing with a non adult, that person doesn't have the ability to walk away, give consent, or any of the other things that adults are supposed to have as far as a choice of staying or going, so it's just not an even playing field.
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I wish to disregard the position that one might hold here that includes free will in adult relationships. That is the will to be humiliated or mind fucked.
This is a point indeed, the point stands. But it is not to say that someone can't freely enter into an abusive relationship, vanilla or otherwise.
That's always the thing, isn't it? Frankly, if someone was an abusive person, what better place to fly under the radar than the realm of BDSM? The acts themselves look darn near identical. If I'm engaging in face slapping, for example, that doesn't necessarily appear differently on a visual level than a person slapping their non consenting partner in an actual abusive relationship. (I picked face slapping for a specific reason.) Even within BDSM, there are some people that, for them, face slapping is an abusive act, no matter what. We also have the other contingent, where face slapping is such a turn on, grounds them in their submission, makes them feel put in their place, and if that particular activity would cease in their play or dynamic, they would miss it immensely.
The other part of this is do we have some s-types in the BDSM umbrella who, in the vanilla world, would be seeking out abusive mates? When considering the realm of possibilities, it's just too much for me to automatically discount that as being one of the potential answers out there. Also, there are additional facts to consider. Just how do we differentiate what appears to be submission when it looks darn near the same as unhealthy co-dependence in the vanilla world? We can't really just say that all this comes from the D-side if we're talking about people not what most folks would call right in the head. If you really try to tell me that you don't know any s-types that you don't think are playing with a full deck, then I'm probably going to suggest to you that you just don't know enough kinky people.
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I'm intrigued by mind games and the prospect of a D/S relationship on either side, but I cannot understand nor see the good in a perpetually abusive situation.
Here is the problem. At minimum, you have to look at three different interpretations of the word abuse. The legal one, your personal perspective, and the perspective of the participants. Let's face it. By the legal definition, if I go and top somebody today, take a cane to their ass and leave marks on them, that very well fits into the criminal code as abuse/assault (depending on the relationship and if it would fit into the category of an intimate relationship). Most tops, unless they've never left a mark on anybody, have to cop to the very same thing. With this being said, let's set that aside.
The next is your personal perspective. A significant percentage of folks engaging in BDSM will look at other people's BDSM and interpret it through their own filters. It's the stuff that people put in their "that goes too far" category. There's plenty of stuff out there that I'm not cool with and I know there are some folks out there who look at the things I enjoy and they aren't cool with those things, either. You are entitled to your opinion just like everybody else but that's all personal perspective is. It's an opinion.
That opinion automatically because secondary behind those of the actual first person participants. If those engaging in whatever do not consider what they are doing as abusive, the outside perspective/personal opinion loses. It's the people engaging in the activity that matter.
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As I've told a few people in discussions...for me the purpose would always be equality. The purpose of humiliation should be to teach insight, punishment to correct behaviour or teach strength. The goal should be to (within a kinky relationship) let both people in their own way learn about each other and grow. To free each other, not to keep the dependency and enhance it, that to me would equal abuse.
To you, it might be. It's not going to be to everyone. While I say in the above that we much accept the possibility of mental incompetence, unhealthy relationships, etc, we also have to accept the possibility that mentally stable, well adjusted people can also engage in these things because, frankly, it just plain turns them on. It's fun for them on some level. Hey, I don't happen to think jumping out of a perfectly good running airplane is the best idea on the planet, but people do that for fun all of the time.
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Further more, how do you view trust issues in a relationship like this? How can you trust someone that uses what they know about you to hurt you?
I have to be clear here. I don't bottom. It's not that I've never tried it. I just don't honestly like it. If I did bottom, I wouldn't be signing up for certain things because I am the biggest wuss in the world when it comes to being the receiving party of just about anything you could label under BDSM. The best I can give you is what I have always been told by people who enjoy the area that you are pointing out in this thread.
Dang near every time, I have heard from bottoms that it makes them trust their partner more. Usually because you can't just look at the 'they used X against you' and in the moment, it brings those feelings of humiliation, degradation, and the other tools of emotional sadism/masochism to the forefront. You're not even touching on the building back up of the person who enjoys experiencing these emotions. Nothing about the potential sense of fulfillment to play with a person's fears and they are strong enough to endure the experience. You're pointing to what you see as the negative in the moment as by your interpretation.
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An other interesting thing he mentions is Socrates first point "Know thy self" and he criticized Elliot for accepting his jealousy of others as "something done by nature" instead of asking himself why he is jealous, how it developed, what inadequacies he had experienced and so forth. I hold that this applies to a lot of people in the BDSM world. Someone "By Nature" submissive to the point of craving what would be traditionally defined as abuse would at the very least be wise to explore the background of that trait.
This part, I do happen to agree with because it's perfectly reasonable to look at what potentials for the 'why' of what a person likes in play or relationships to evaluate if it's healthy for them or not. Some people will find that they can't pin what it stems from and others may find a root cause. If nothing else, a little self examination and reflection is usually good for people.
I'm a later in life sadist. (Haven't always been kinky. Haven't always been into S/m, even when enjoying power exchange relationships.) I find it to be rather common (not universal) for people who enjoy inflicting pain on others to ask themselves why. We are taught all of our lives that it is "wrong" to hurt other people. Male sadists who top women get the double whammy of 'you should never hit a woman' and they hear this all their lives in their formative years. (Generalization.) How many people do you know that struggle with the "what is wrong with me" concept because of their kinks?
The entire subject is fascinating and I think the average person could try to spend their life figuring it out. For themselves, for other people, and the entire realm of kink as a whole. I have to thank you for bringing up such an interesting topic.
_____________________________
The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT
Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD
Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.
Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread
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The complexities of a sadistic mind games in a D/S rela... - 
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