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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:34:55 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
This sounds like a one-sided story that isn't telling the whole truth.
The only 'evidence' would be the time of the phone call.
Everything else is pure conjecture and spin.
There is nothing in this portion that has any independent witness to prove the validity of the story. Without that, it's just a story and nothing else.

In most rape, there usually isn't any independent witnesses, but the alcohol level she was in was considered to be hazardous. Like extremely high! That one point was medically ascertained.

The level of alcohol is of no bearing whatsoever to her level of mental capacity.
As I said in my post, I've seen both ends of the spectrum.
This is effectively irrelevant 'evidence' to be ignored.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
quote:


If you take this part: "she claimed she was too intoxicated and weak to know what was really going on until she got to his home and got really scared and didn't want to have sex with him! But there were no wounds, nothing, no violence was done to her, she claim she was too terrified to fight back" at face value, it would seem that she had sufficient mental capacity to be aware of what was going on.
Whether she gave consent or not is never likely to be known.

But especially with Asian women, some are extremely submissive and timid, they were brought up never to talk back, fight back, you can rape them, with just verbal threats. They freeze up in fear. I just think it should be illegal for any man to have sex with a heavily intoxicated woman, because there is no way she can give the clarity of consent.

Asian, black, white, Hispanic..... the race is irrelevant.
Everyone is an individual.
Their reaction is what they have learned during their lifetime.
To claim that 'Asians' are a particular breed would disingenuous.

Again, this is small world thinking and not particularly a generality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
quote:

In essence, there's no difference between consensual sex and rape except that small little word called "no".

It's impossible to prove that she said "No". IF they were alone, and there was no voice or video recording.

My point exactly.
So to assume that consent wasn't given would be jumping to conclusions without evidence to back it up.
Given the majority of similar situations, consent (or more exactly, willing participant without objection) would be the norm.
Therefore, unless there is sufficient evidence to the contrary, consent is assumed to have been accepted and would be the prima facie evidence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
quote:


Evidence of resistance is not evidence of rape. That's a fact.

Even if it's not rape, he will at least be convicted of assault. There will be something. She needs to get herself badly hurt for sure.

As I said before - very bad advice.
She could get herself killed by doing this.

A lot of the advice in the western world is NOT to provoke anger or a fight for exactly this reason.
From the Guardian: Generalising about resistance is also dangerous and distorting. It can be successful but it can also be life-threatening. In the 100 cases I studied for my book, Carnal Knowledge, I discovered that where women failed to escape, resistance often led to an escalation of violence, so could sometimes be a risky strategy. In such circumstances, surviving is more important than avoiding rape.... Contrary to popular belief, women attacked by partners or ex-partners suffer no less serious injuries and are more likely to be killed than women attacked by strangers.... Resisting may be effective where there is an escape route but in an underground car park or deserted spot, or where faced with an assailant much stronger than oneself, it may not be practicable or sensible.


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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:37:24 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		But if I was raped, I rather be beaten to death, and let the bastard trial for murder, than to fucking let him off, and acquitted for rape, because NOBODY heard me resist him, and apparently physical wounds are not bad enough, so it's rough sex.
Because I know for sure, a woman that has evidence of being sexually used, and brutally beaten to death. It's a 100% sure conviction for the rapist! And death is worth it, as long as his put away from hurting other women ever again!

I just feel like, women who are rape have to be prepared that the guy is most probably gonna be acquitted if they just focus on letting him do what he wants and just save their own life. Of course, some do treasure their life more and that's okay, do that to stay alive.

But personally for me, it would fucking piss me off if someone rape me and he goes off with it. And I wouldn't let it go, I probably will end up murdering him myself IF the law acquits him! And get in trouble for it.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 2/19/2016 7:43:27 AM >

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:41:21 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Status: offline 		Really??

What a warped sense of things you have Greta.

Even if you died as a result of rape, there's no guarantee the guy gets caught let alone punished.

Jeeez Greta, your myopic view of the world is unbelievable at times.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:42:08 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		I dont wish a rape on anyone, but until you have been there, whether it be an acquaintance rape, or a violent gang rape, you have no idea what you will do until you are in that situation.

https://rainn.org/news-room/97-of-every-100-rapists-receive-no-punishment

Only three out of every 100 rapists will ever spend even a single day in prison, according to a new analysis by RAINN of Justice Department data. The other 97 will walk free, facing no consequences for the violent felony they have committed. Because rapists tend to be serial criminals, this leaves communities across the nation at risk of predators.

While the percentage of rapes reported to police has risen in recent years, a majority — 54% — still are not reported, according to the Justice Department. But increasing reporting alone won't solve the problem: only about one out of four reported rapes leads to an arrest, and only about one out of four arrests leads to a felony conviction and incarceration.

RAINN's new analysis is based on the most recent available Justice Department data, using an average of the five most recent years when available. Based on older data, RAINN had previously estimated that about 6% of rapists ultimately go to prison for their crime.

"This staggering statistic sends a clear message to offenders that they can commit this horrible crime and get away with it. The single most important thing we can do to prevent rape is to put more rapists in prison," notes Scott Berkowitz, RAINN's president and founder. "That's why we have made it a priority to pass the SAFER Act and eliminate the backlog of untested DNA evidence from open rape cases."

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:42:47 AM   
CodeOfSilence


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

I think the beauty of community punishment is, you're punished to do something positive. Infact if a woman has been rape and is keeping it a secret, and this whole community service happened to her, it might end up to be something good, rather than detrimental. Because I feel like the problem with rape victims is they might feel dirtied and worthless. And if they did something that they saw how their work made someone else happy or they can see the fruits of how they can still contribute in a positive way despite feeling damaged. I think it would be therapy for the victim, that despite what she went through, she is still a good person able to do good things and people appreciate her and there is hope to normalcy again.




Yes, that's wise I'll admit that. But you keep ignoring the extreme cases where a crime syndicate boss or a perverted jester rapes you and you keep ignoring the very basic premise that laws should not incentivize abuse of laws. Especially not up the hierarchy.

Meaning you shouldn't be able to accuse someone of a worse crime to get off a lesser one. Even though this is the norm in the United States (with the largest prison population per capita) it is thankfully not the norm in the rest of the world. It creates a shitty ripple effect.


Lucy also makes a not so shitty point about 97/100. Those numbers seem mind-numbingly out of proportion considering the generally rise of rape convictions in almost every country but the point still stands. Imagine first going through all of this, failing in court and then being sentenced to community service or what ever else it may be. Might push some people over the edge and make them kill themselves.

< Message edited by CodeOfSilence -- 2/19/2016 7:44:20 AM >

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:46:57 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Even if you died as a result of rape, there's no guarantee the guy gets caught let alone punished.

In a very brutal fight, his DNA will be all over me! I mean, his gonna have to really be super intelligent to dispose of my body very cleanly. And even if he still gets away with it. But I will still feel that, I gave it my best to make sure he will get caught.

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:50:36 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

But you keep ignoring the extreme cases where a crime syndicate boss or a perverted jester rapes you

I am totally missing this point. I actually don't understand your point about someone going into a mental facility to rape alot of women.
I'm pretty sure if a woman is certify mentally incapable of consent, it's rape, regardless if she gave consent.
We had a convicted rapist for a woman with low IQ, and and he was convicted for rape, even though he claims she was consensual. Her family went after him, after they found out he was sleeping with her.

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:52:45 AM   
CodeOfSilence


Posts: 235
Status: offline 		The faceless bureaucracy of the welfare state ignored the "certifiably mentally incapable" womens allegations of rape and refused to investigate such claims against such a highly functioning and charming sociopath like Jimmy Saville whom simpletons just loved to adore.


Frankly the ever more sinister capitalist state with its self-serving welfare institutions is ever more cold to the complaints of the weak, old or sick. Whether or not those complaints concern rape, abuse, mistreatment, bad food or what ever else it may be. And these positions also tend to draw the worst type of selfish sadist or nihilist while the finer private hospitals get the caring empaths. Generally speaking of course.

< Message edited by CodeOfSilence -- 2/19/2016 7:54:57 AM >

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:55:31 AM   
freedomdwarf1


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Joined: 10/23/2012
Status: offline 		Bullshit Greta. Pure utter crap.

One decent knock across the head and you'd be unconscious and there would be nothing you could do about it.
If he raped you, his semen would be DNA evidence.
But, unless they test every single male in the country and every male that left from the time of the incident to the time they got around to it, the rapist would easily slip the net.

You are reacting as if you'd be Ninja enough to make a huge difference.
While you might be fit enough, the majority of women/girls aren't.



_____________________________

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George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:56:36 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I am not familiar with the case you mentioned, so it's very difficult for me to understand what happened in that case. I need to go read up about it first. Any suggested link?

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:57:33 AM   
CodeOfSilence


Posts: 235
Status: offline 		It's not necessary, a far more simple case would be getting raped by a member of the Chinese triads for example.

Feel free to answer from that perspective.


But here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Savile_sexual_abuse_scandal


Here's one where the sick son of a bitch got one of them pregnant:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2670444/Jimmy-Savile-abused-corpses-boasted-jewellery-glass-eyes-NHS-report-reveals-shocking-new-details-paedophiles-crimes.html

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 7:58:15 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Bullshit Greta. Pure utter crap.

One decent knock across the head and you'd be unconscious and there would be nothing you could do about it.
If he raped you, his semen would be DNA evidence.
But, unless they test every single male in the country and every male that left from the time of the incident to the time they got around to it, the rapist would easily slip the net.

You are reacting as if you'd be Ninja enough to make a huge difference.
While you might be fit enough, the majority of women/girls aren't.



Well, one of the advice is, scratch him as much as you can, you wanna get as much dna under your nails as possible.

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Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 8:01:51 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Bullshit Greta. Pure utter crap.

One decent knock across the head and you'd be unconscious and there would be nothing you could do about it.
If he raped you, his semen would be DNA evidence.
But, unless they test every single male in the country and every male that left from the time of the incident to the time they got around to it, the rapist would easily slip the net.

You are reacting as if you'd be Ninja enough to make a huge difference.
While you might be fit enough, the majority of women/girls aren't.



Well, one of the advice is, scratch him as much as you can, you wanna get as much dna under your nails as possible.


That DNA evidence is not going to prove a rape case Greta.
It really is as simple as that.

Many women scratch a man's back when having consensual sex.
It's not proof of anything at all.

Really Greta, you are living in a dream utopian world.


_____________________________

“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
George Orwell, 1903-1950


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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 8:05:44 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence

It's not necessary, a far more simple case would be getting raped by a member of the Chinese triads for example.


So being raped by chinese triads still means, that chinese triads gets convicted with sufficient evidence of course. We are already discussing how difficult it is to convict rape. Unless the female chooses to keep quiet.

I had a very quick glance at the saville case. So it was pre-puberscent girls who got raped. I don't see any conflict there. Underage sex, is automatically rape. So if a pre-puberscent got pregnant, it was rape. As simple as that.

Also, if a mental patient show up getting an abortion, that is alarms bells like how did a woman of such mental capability get pregnant while in a facility? I mean, these things are like red flags, that there is probably rape going on.

I can't see people in this category falling through the cracks. People who aren't able to give consent who got pregnent, whether mentally incapable of underage. It's clear cut rape.

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 8:07:55 AM   
CodeOfSilence


Posts: 235
Status: offline 		Stop being thick when you're far more intelligent than what that last post gives credit.

She De Facto Fell Through The Fucking Cracks. That's the point.

Also I don't know if you missed my edit there with the newspaper article or not but in case you did:

" 16, PREGNANT"


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^


quote:

So being raped by chinese triads still means, that chinese triads gets convicted with sufficient evidence of course. We are already discussing how difficult it is to convict rape. Unless the female chooses to keep quiet.



It also means his buddies will potentially come by your house at night and slit your throat.


Edit:

Also we don't anymore have the strong family bonds or community bonds that would stop actions like this or where family would intervene. Many families are stressed out , obsessed with material affluence and let the state deal with the "troublesome" or "old" or "sick".

You've done with capitalism what we used to do with it before we became consumed by it.
(Not that the Eastern Europeans had much luck with socialism neither. Oh the abuses in the Soviet mental health system...)

< Message edited by CodeOfSilence -- 2/19/2016 8:18:01 AM >

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 8:08:52 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Many women scratch a man's back when having consensual sex.
It's not proof of anything at all.

Really Greta, you are living in a dream utopian world.


Yea, but most consensual sex won't see scratches on his face, his neck, his arms, like everywhere. The pattern of a woman scratching him for pleasure is very different pattern to a woman scratching a man to to defend herself.
I'm pretty sure, this part is gonna help alot!

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 8:15:05 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence

Stop being thick when you're far more intelligent than what that last post gives credit.

She De Facto Fell Through The Fucking Cracks. That's the point.

Also I don't know if you missed my edit there with the newspaper article or not but in case you did:

" 16, PREGNANT"


And you think community service will be detrimental to her, how? Since she's too scared to open up and tell people what happened. There will be women who are more timid type and be intimidated into keeping quiet for sure. Community service might even help her open up. The more I think about this, this is gonna be do alot of good for such victims. And when it is law, her rapist can't say, she can't go.



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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 8:20:12 AM   
freedomdwarf1


Posts: 6845
Joined: 10/23/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Many women scratch a man's back when having consensual sex.
It's not proof of anything at all.

Really Greta, you are living in a dream utopian world.


Yea, but most consensual sex won't see scratches on his face, his neck, his arms, like everywhere. The pattern of a woman scratching him for pleasure is very different pattern to a woman scratching a man to to defend herself.
I'm pretty sure, this part is gonna help alot!


Do you really honestly think you could inflict that sort of damage when you are unconscious??
I've seen many struggles and in a lot of cases, the woman couldn't get scratches anywhere near the rapists face or neck and not many on arms either.
And I've seen (and got myself!) scratches on my face and neck during consensual sex.
The scratches and skin evidence really mean nothing.


The world in your mind is overactive and surreal Greta.
Things generally don't go that way in real life.

Seriously, get your head out of the clouds.

You've gone from a stupid fine, to community service for women who want an abortion - just because you personally don't believe in it.
You proposition is full of holes and would lead to impossibly convoluted law to try and enforce.
Then you flip to Hollywood style rape scenarios where the woman goes against normal advice and is somehow a wonderwoman that fights like Jackie Chan!!

It's no wonder that your views aren't taken seriously... they are absurd in the extreme.


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George Orwell, 1903-1950


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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 8:23:23 AM   
CodeOfSilence


Posts: 235
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75


quote:

ORIGINAL: CodeOfSilence

Stop being thick when you're far more intelligent than what that last post gives credit.

She De Facto Fell Through The Fucking Cracks. That's the point.

Also I don't know if you missed my edit there with the newspaper article or not but in case you did:

" 16, PREGNANT"


And you think community service will be detrimental to her, how? Since she's too scared to open up and tell people what happened. There will be women who are more timid type and be intimidated into keeping quiet for sure. Community service might even help her open up. The more I think about this, this is gonna be do alot of good for such victims. And when it is law, her rapist can't say, she can't go.



Her "doctor" probably can say that she's not fit for it. You're right of course but the point was to illustrate how your law can further victimize the victim and how justice is not fair nor open to everyones claims.

Maybe in a better society your suggestion could work better. One where medicine and mental health for example was interested in pro-active healthcare. Like the example where you told me how the state does everything to influence and help struggling families to get their kids to school.

Here they just punish the parents and the child when they don't do it.

But even then you'd have cases where the victim just wouldn't want to report it. But like you said, community service is not the worst thing, especially if it's not stuck on your record. It's not a bad idea all in all, it just has problems.

< Message edited by CodeOfSilence -- 2/19/2016 8:26:06 AM >

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RE: Win-Win to Abortion issue - 2/19/2016 5:08:49 PM   
Wayward5oul


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1
Don't apologize on my behalf.

I didn't.

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Profile   Post #: 120
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