Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews?

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Real0ne -> Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/21/2016 7:02:25 PM)
This even shocked me! I rant a lot about da gubblemint but seriously never dreamed I would ever and I mean never ever see this kind of draconianism in the US. Tremonton, UT — Bear River, Utah resident Rex Iverson, 45, died in the Box Elder County Jail on January 23 after being incarcerated for his failure to pay an ambulance bill. A deputy arrested him on a $350 bench warrant issued by the justice court on December 29. He was found unresponsive in his cell by a detention deputy a few hours after being arrested [snip] Over the past three years, reports the Standard-Examiner, thirteen people have been arrested and jailed on civil bench warrants of the kind that resulted in Iverson’s fatal incarceration. Roughly half of those arrests arose from civil judgments obtained by government agencies, the rest from private debts [snip] Debtors’ prisons were formally outlawed more than a century ago. They are nonetheless ubiquitous, and highly profitable for people wired into the corporate prison-industrial complex. [snip] More than 62 percent of defendants statewide “are processed through Utah’s justice courts without a lawyer,” [snip] The crowning obscenity in this system is the fact that because these bodies are not courts of record (no official transcripts are kept of the proceedings), the rulings imposed by the be-robed ignoramuses cannot be appealed. Instead, a defendant has to file a de novo review in a distract court. [ps that is the case for virtually all municipal courts through out the US as well!!, they run them through like cattle cha-ching all day long, investigated and seen it with my own eyes.] Most of the hapless people summoned before the justice courts are poor, indigent defendants deprived of legal counsel to assist them in filing for that review – and devoid of the financial means to do so in any case http://thefreethoughtproject.com/warrant-issued-illegitimate-court/#IXaMhHTvG1IQsmUB.99 The states where you can be jailed The Wall Street Journal reports that more than one-third of U.S. states allow borrowers who can't pay a debt to be jailed. "A debt-related arrest warrant is typically issued when a borrower who was sued for payments on an outstanding debt doesn't show up in court or fails to make payments ordered by a judge," according to a separate Journal article. Again, the laws on this vary by state. Arizona, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Oklahoma, Utah and Washington State are among the states named in the Journal article where debtors have been locked up. In fact, this is such an issue in Illinois that the state's attorney general is working to outlaw the practice in her state. Now comes word from The Baltimore Sun that Maryland has issued the equivalent of warrants for 1,800+ people and counting. That's resulted in a backlash move in the state legislature to eliminate having people locked up. http://www.clarkhoward.com/how-you-can-be-jailed-over-unpaid-debt-some-states

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/21/2016 7:56:04 PM)
That's pretty fucked up.

tj444 -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/22/2016 11:14:49 AM)
even if you do get legal council, public defenders can only give ya about 7 minutes of their time for your entire case.. John Oliver did a show on the bail system and public defenders (as well as other shows on the US criminal legal system).. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USkEzLuzmZ4

servantforuse -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/22/2016 12:12:27 PM)
Maybe they should take the time to show up in court and not ignore a bench warrant. Most of these people make a small problem into a big problem.

FelineRanger -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/22/2016 1:06:45 PM)
Instead of pulling a Chicken Little and selectively editing your conveniently unattributed source, just get your facts straight. He wasn't jailed over the debt itself, he was jailed because he ignored multiple court dates and bench warrants which would have been mailed directly to him.

Cinnamongirl67 -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/22/2016 2:53:23 PM)
The government is not suppose to be a babysitter. A person or family, is expected to carry their own. The government is set In place to help people. We are a kind country. It is our privilege or honor to help people. It is the best human quality we have. We love it. We enjoy who we are. We love seeing life's change. We will no longer tolerate people taking advantage of our good nature. Yes there are corrupt people in heirarchy, or government. Just as there are people who live off the government. This is a country of many nations. The first was an Indian nation. We cherish our people. All nationalities. We want peace. Yes and it is true if you can't be responsible we will punish.

Cinnamongirl67 -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/22/2016 3:43:37 PM)
http://www.lisashea.com/birding/basics/art10523.html

MrRodgers -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 3:10:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse Maybe they should take the time to show up in court and not ignore a bench warrant. Most of these people make a small problem into a big problem. You've got it. This person and others you describe, were not jailed for the debt. [They] were jailed for either failure to appear or contempt of court.

Real0ne -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 5:27:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FelineRanger Instead of pulling a Chicken Little and selectively editing your conveniently unattributed source, just get your facts straight. He wasn't jailed over the debt itself, he was jailed because he ignored multiple court dates and bench warrants which would have been mailed directly to him. thats the problem with coming out on the boards with legal matters. No chicken little what so ever. It does not matter how they converted a civil case to a quasi-criminal matter. Bench warrants are used in criminal cases. No matter how you wish to stack the deck the end game puts people in jail over civil matters that should have resulted in nothing more than a default judgment. Its why, had you read the OP and gave this a moments thought instead of running to snopes: (From the OP:) quote: That resulted in a backlash move in the state legislature to eliminate having people locked up. Many of these cases never never even get tried and the 'victim' is barred due process, all in direct violation of their rights. Which of course is why I always say: "howd that revolution work out for ya?" [8\|] Most if not virtually all of these cases are contrary to a ca ruling: In Fesler v. Rawlins , 43 Cal.App.2d 541, 544 [111 P.2d 380], it was said: "It is axiomatic that agency cannot be established by the declarations of the agent not under oath or in the presence of the principal. As stated in 1 California Jurisprudence, 698, 'if the rule were otherwise any rogue could use the name of an honest man to facilitate his roguery.' " See also Mechem Outlines Agency (3d ed.), 112, p. 68.) Which is what IS going on! These are often times over disputed debts or debts not 'justly' owed by the party, however once accused in the 'rubber stamp' lower courts [that people accept under the guise of saving them money despite justice is flushed down the tubes] you are now subject to an extremely costly judicial proceeding to defend yourself (that has already violated your due process rights) with the deck stacked against you right from the start, and many people simply cannot afford attorneys who are actuallyt willing to work for them and not the system. There is ungodly amount of money to be made by everyone in the legal system that has resulted from in debt collection. These guys purchase mostly 'written off debts' bought for mere pennies (like 1-3cents is the going rate) on a dollar then sue for the full amount plus costs and keep the change, and they now own the debt but sue in the name of the 'original holder' of the debt. Its a great bankster racket that is feeding attorneys, good luck finding someone who will work in YOUR best interest! However if you have the ability to go in pro se' and sue them back, then its wholly another story and they work their asses off to low ball them and 'keep judgments out of the court record'. If you get a pacer account and read the briefs put up against these guys you would see that many pro se's are handing them their asses, and in some cases walking out the door with millions. the monetary system is toxic.

Real0ne -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 6:12:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Cinnamongirl67 The government is not suppose to be a babysitter. A person or family, is expected to carry their own. The government is set In place to help people. We are a kind country. It is our privilege or honor to help people. It is the best human quality we have. We love it. We enjoy who we are. We love seeing life's change. We will no longer tolerate people taking advantage of our good nature. Yes there are corrupt people in heirarchy, or government. Just as there are people who live off the government. This is a country of many nations. The first was an Indian nation. We cherish our people. All nationalities. We want peace. Yes and it is true if you can't be responsible we will punish. countries that use 'predatory' birds as a national symbol like the US and Nazi germany usually arent all that benevolent. unfortunately history would show white eurpeans invaded conquered and stole the land from the indians. The next easiest way to extract or even extort money from people is through government and the legal system.

sloguy02246 -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 6:26:15 AM)
I am afraid you are still missing the point. To repeat: These "jailings" are not a direct result of an owed debt. The people are in jail because they ignored the "due process" afforded to them when the matter finally reached the court. In an article in yesterday's Chicago Tribune, the writer cited another example where the debt was valid, but attempts to recover the debt had failed. The debt-holder then went to court and notice of a hearing was sent to the debtor. The debtor ignored the notice and did not appear. In his absence, the judge entered a default judgment in favor of the plaintiff, ordering that the debt be paid. The debtor then refused to cooperate with the debt-holder, who then went back to court, where the judge scheduled another hearing to determine why the debtor had failed to comply with the judgment. The debtor ignored that summons as well, and it was only then that the judge issued an arrest warrant for the debtor on the basis of contempt of court, both for not paying the debt and also for ignoring the court's order to appear to explain why he was not paying the debt. Even if the debt was bogus, the debtor should not have ignored the court hearings or the last summons where his repeated absence resulted in the warrant for his arrest. The debtor had his opportunity for "due process" but chose to ignore it, apparently thinking that he couldn't be jailed over a debt. True, but as he discovered, you can be jailed for failing to comply with a judge's orders.

Real0ne -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 7:05:16 AM)
oh I do understand :) I would like to look up and see the case you brought up that is being talked about in the chicago tribune. The way you presented it "These "jailings" are not a direct result of an owed debt." actually agrees with my point on its face. That and as I pointed out the legislatures are starting to take action to halt the courts from reinstituing debtors prisons directly OR indirectly. FYI, your post btw 'assumes' the proceedings up to that point were in fact due process where no rights have been violated along the way. I rarely see that to be the case, but I'd like to look anyway, which case?

TallClevDom -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 7:22:53 AM)
quote: countries that use 'predatory' birds as a national symbol like the US and Nazi germany usually arent all that benevolent. unfortunately history would show white eurpeans invaded conquered and stole the land from the indians. The next easiest way to extract or even extort money from people is through government and the legal system. This has to rank as one of the more absurd statements made on a comment board. Do you really think the national bird has anything to do with a government's policies??? If America had a predatory mammal for a national symbol, would that be ok with you? Are the Eagles, Seahawks and other sports teams (pee wee league through pros) also predatory because they use a predatory bird as a symbol? BTW, the bald eagle is not much of a predatory bird, it's more of a scavenger. Ben Franklin preferred the turkey as the national bird for that reason. As for "white Europeans", just about every nation and race has conquered some other nation or race during their existence. Why do you single out white Europeans when it's happened all over the world all throughout time?

Real0ne -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 7:58:01 AM)
I suppose you think that the crown simply walks away from its holdings no strings attached? [image]http://www.jaunay.com/images/BritishEmpire.jpg[/image] The very first Crown colony was the English Colony of Virginia in the present-day United States, after the Crown took control from the Virginia Company in 1624. Most former colonies are now independent nations. The former British Empire comprised the self-governing dominions as well as colonies, protectorates and mandates administered by the United Kingdom. Dominions have included (at varying times) Canada (1867–1982), Australia (1901–1942), New Zealand (1907–1986), Newfoundland (1907–1949), the Union of South Africa (1910–1961), India (1909–1950) and the Irish Free State then Ireland (1922–1949). Since 1948, the term has been used to denote those independent nations of the British Commonwealth that shared the same person as their monarch. These have included (at varying times) Pakistan (1947–1956) and Ceylon now Sri Lanka (1948–1972) in addition to the earlier dominions. Many of the former British colonies that were granted independence in the decades following World War II were called Dominions in their constitutions of independence. In many cases, these countries became republics ending their status as Dominions. The United Kingdom and the other remaining monarchies are today referred to as Commonwealth realms rather than Dominions. Note: Southern Rhodesia was never a dominion, although it was treated as a dominion in many respects.

mnottertail -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 9:27:44 AM)
and we are off into another masturbatory phase.

joether -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 9:30:13 AM)
Fear, Fear, Fear, Fear! That is all RealOne's OP is about. Yeah, I saw something like this a few weeks back. Then and now are more or less the same shit just different 'actors'. Do a search on the web for these stories. Look at the sites that come up 'reporting the news'. They are all right-wing sites. Now why is that? Because conservatives, unlike liberals, are more prone to fear based news. Its why FOX 'news' has done so well. It is why many radio shows across the nation switched their programming to 'conservative talk radio'; it farms listeners whom buy the products their advertisers want. The programming is based on fear. Often the facts and truth are not present unless it just happens to work with the story. Private companies can not use government resources to arrest and drag US Citizens to a court and then imprison them. They can take them to court and argue the issue before a judge. Judges tend to come in two flavors: Draconian and Liberal. Draconian will demand 'justice' be done; the one in debt will either pay or give assets to pay off the debt in 'X' time. A liberal judge will either create a reduced paying plan, or a creative way to pay the plan off. That is if the judge's decision goes to the collection group. If it goes to the one in debt, often it is either a reduced sentence on the actual debt, or removed all together. I heard this by way of someone that was default on federal student loans. I have a hard time believing the Obama administration would be draconian towards US Citizens with student debt. Since the number of people defaulted on student loans right now is ~40%. The problem with student debts, unlike any other type of legal debt is student debt can not be removed during a bankruptcy process. The only way to remove oneself from a student loan is A ) Work It Off, or B ) Suicide. After President Obama gets a liberal judge on the US Supreme Court, this issue, if it actually is one, will make its way to that court. The Justices will rule in favor of US Citizens rather than draconian assholes.

Real0ne -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 6:20:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether Fear, Fear, Fear, Fear! Private companies can not use government resources to arrest and drag US Citizens to a court and then imprison them. quote: Corporatocracy /ˌkɔːrpərəˈtɒkrəsi/, is a term used to refer to an economic and political system controlled by corporations and/or corporate interests.[1] It is a generally pejorative term often used by critics of the current economic situation in a particular country, especially the United States. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatocracy Keep up the good work Joe! The problem is that they now allow attorneys into what used to be the peoples court, meaning small claims. It was called the peoples court because people would sue pro se, no lawyers for small debts like what these debt collectors are chasing en mass bulk. If you walk into a larger city small claims court you will see between 10 - 20 stacks of thin folders about 1 - 2 foot high that wind up in default judgments because the people cant afford an attorney and do not know how to defend themselves. Not to mention a debt case is not the easiest case to win and you need to have an intimate understanding of the monetary system and bank operations, meaning how they pull the wool over your eyes to defend yoursef. Now instead of people versus people its corporations versus people who bring in their attorneys and these cases get rubber stamped without any kind of trial. Throwing people in jail over a civil case and unsecured debt, something that bankruptcy would simply write off anyway is insane. Now if the person filed bankruptcy or wanted free representation provided by the court, then sure they should have to produce their assets and liabilities. These judges are out of line and frankly can have their panties sued off for treating a civil case like a criminal case. That said Joe the procedures and separation between criminal are set up that way for a reason, one is a tort and the other a crime against the state. What crime do you think is being commited against the state when someone does not return the 5 bucks you lent them? Yes its a good time to have a little fearful awakening when civil matters are handled like criminal and its catching on because no one is paying attention.

Lucylastic -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/23/2016 7:08:50 PM)
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/21/mississippi-debtors-prison-poverty-lawsuit Qumotria Kennedy, a 36-year-old single mother with teenage kids from Biloxi, Mississippi, was driving around the city with a friend in July when they were pulled over by police for allegedly running a stop sign. Though Kennedy was the passenger, her name was put through a police database that flashed up a warrant for her arrest on charges that she failed to pay $400 in court fines. The fines were for other traffic violations dating back to 2013. At that time, Kennedy says she told her probation officers – a private company called Judicial Corrections Services Inc (JCS) – that she was so poor there was no way she could find the money. She worked as a cleaner at the baseball field in downtown Biloxi, earning less than $9,000 a year – well below the federal poverty level for a single person, let alone a mother of two dependent children. Her plea fell on deaf ears: a JCS official told her that unless she paid her fines in full, as well as a $40 monthly fee to JCS for the privilege of having them as her probation officers, she would go to jail – an arrest warrant was duly secured to that effect through the Biloxi municipal court. Qumotria Kennedy and her daughter Victorya Ricks, 17, fold laundry and watch TV in the evening. Photograph: William Widmer/ACLU Nor was Kennedy’s inability to pay her fines as a result of poverty taken into account by the police officer when he stopped her in July, she said. Discovering the arrest warrant, he promptly put her in handcuffs and took her to a Gulfport jail. There she was told that unless she came up with all the money – by now the figure had bloated as a result of JCS’s monthly fees to $1,000 – she would stay in jail. And so she did. Kennedy spent the next five days and nights in a holding cell. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-rise-of-americas-debtor-prisons/ For teenager Kevin Thompson, a traffic ticket ended up costing him not only his driver's license, but also his freedom. In his account of the experience, Thompson says he was ordered to pay $810 in fines by Georgia's DeKalb Recorders Court, an amount that was out of reach for the low-income auto shop and tow truck worker. Instead of working with Thompson to find another way to pay, such as through community service, the court handed off Thompson to a for-profit probation company called Judicial Correction Services (JCS). JCS told Thompson he had 30 days to pay the fine, but also gave him erroneous legal information, such as overestimating the cost of a public defender. Thompson notes that the court later took up a JCS officer's recommendation to incarcerate him, resulting in a five-day stint in jail for failing to pay the fine. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2015/09/23/3704358/debtors-prisons-lawsuits/ http://www.npr.org/2014/05/21/313118629/supreme-court-ruling-not-enough-to-prevent-debtors-prisons http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/02/debtors-prison/462378/ <snip> What these cities lack in tax receipts, they collect through fines and fees stemming from minor municipal violations. These include vehicle violations such as expired registration, speeding, or seat-belt tickets, and other offenses like “saggy pants” or property-upkeep tickets (everything from chipped paint to trash-can violations). Simply put, these are not serious crimes. And, to make matters worse, such laws are unevenly enforced. City governments, incentivized by their own budget goals and shortfalls, encourage local police to increase the number of citations in order to drive up revenue. Municipal courts are the mechanism for collection. Qiana Williams is a 37-year-old single mother and long-time resident of St. Louis. Her story is representative of the damage that the broken municipal justice system can have on the lives of the individuals sucked into it. According to Williams, her problems began at the age of 19 when she was ticketed for driving without a license. A couple of months later, after missing a court date, she was arrested and held on a $250 bond, an amount that she could not afford to pay. It eventually became clear that she was unable to pay the bond, even with the threat of continued detention, and she was released—without ever appearing before a judge and with the underlying fine still outstanding, she recalls. Since that time, Williams has spent more than four months total in jail in a spiral of unpaid tickets, warrants, and ever-increasing fines that she could not pay because she lacked the necessary income. Hopeful that she would be able to lift herself and her family out of this cycle and pay off her tickets with a college degree, she enrolled in school. She was just 12 credits shy of her degree when she was arrested again for unpaid traffic tickets, she said.

Phydeaux -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/26/2016 3:00:43 PM)
Yep - big government run amok. You should - like most republicans - be wanting to get those excessive fines and confiscatory policies overturned. I'm always amused when a big government liberal is surprised when government turns out to be corrupt, wasteful, and oppressive.

mnottertail -> RE: Arresting and Jailing Civil Debtors in America? OMG! Whats next Thumbscrews? (2/26/2016 3:07:41 PM)
Well, they have had the house and the senate, what exactly is holding the nutsuckers back? Dont say republicans, cuz there are none to be found on the horizon. Dont say conservatives because they are not that either, they are just plain nutsuckers.

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