Illegals: California & Texas (Full Version)

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caitlyn -> Illegals: California & Texas (7/19/2006 5:44:36 PM)

I'm starting this thread in the hopes that we can have a fact-based discussion on this issue. I'm asking nicely, please lets try to keep this thread for factual and open minded opinion only.

I'm not starting this to back any position. The point is to disclose real data, so that people can make an informed choice.

Many feel that illegals cost the taxpayer a lot of public money, but at least in Texas, the numbers don't point to that at all. Texas, who gets the vast majority of it's tex revenue from sales tax, has an eight billion dollar tax surplus. Below are two links from the State of Texas Comptrollers website, outlining this surplus.

http://window.state.tx.us/news/60417revestimate.html

http://window.state.tx.us/news/60512allocations.html

Following these links, is a link below to an op-ed by Bruce Bartlett, a former Treasury Department official in the administration of former President Bush Sr., which outlines with a broad brush why California is more burdened by the issue than Texas.

http://www.texasinsider.org/scoop/Scoop_Bruce_Bartlett_05_19_06_Why_CA_is_Burdened_More_by_Illegals_Than_.htm

Thank you in advance for keeping the rhetoric at a minimum and for engaging in intelligent debate.



LotusSong -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/19/2006 8:06:10 PM)

Can an Arizonan chime in?

Our ilustrious Sherrif Joe explained  his reason for locking up the illeagals.  The reason they come here is to work.  If they are locked up they can't work then they are deported.  This  makes the whole reason for coming here mute.
It really is sad. Today they picked up 90 people in the desert. They had gone without  food and water for several days. They have "camps" they go to to wait for the Coyotes to pick them up and bring them in. 

So there are two choices.. either we  ignore them working for exploitive "employers"  or we round them up and send them back.  At least they are fed and housed in the interim.  It's a no win situation for them.  What  really needs to be done is for them to lean on their OWN leadership down in Mexico to improve their conditions.  I know- easier said than done. 

What seems to be so overlooked in the discussion of immigrants is the word "illegal". There is a way to come into America- and for those there are "rights". Just do it the correct way through the proper channels. Because without it, they will be no better off here than there.



caitlyn -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 10:50:07 AM)

Of course anyone can weigh in.

I don't think anyone is overlooking, that what these people are doing it illegal. The word illegal is in the heading of this post. Perhaps poor, starving, migratory workers should just fire up their computer and download the proper forms, then step over to their fax machine and submit them. We might want to first tell them that they will need a high speed connection.[;)]

http://www.immigration-usa.com/resource.html



Alumbrado -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 11:02:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
... Perhaps poor, starving, migratory workers should just fire up their computer and download the proper forms, then step over to their fax machine and submit them. We might want to first tell them that they will need a high speed connection.[;)]

http://www.immigration-usa.com/resource.html


And don't forget that none of them are being exploited...they can just call their lawyers and get a better employment deal like anyone else.[sm=biggrin.gif]


But, as you said, this thread is about those specifically here illegally, be they doctors, or construction workers, and how much they contribute...

I would ask if there is a suggestion on the table that legal workers in the same positions, would spend significantly less, and if so, is there any other, less obvious difference?

Do those not living in fear of deportation do something else besides swell the sales tax coffers, like serve as reserve police officers, or jurors, or run volunteer rescue squad, or go into the school systems, etc?

Probably going to be hard to dig up useful numbers on that...perhaps a little critical analysis?



caitlyn -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 11:21:08 AM)

Well, I tried starting out with some cold, hard numbers from the State Comptrollers office here in Texas, and I wasn't getting anywhere, so I decided to be sarcastic. I expect an immediate response. [;)]

I don't have an answer, but am really starting to believe that this is going to have to be a state-by-state solution to a state-by-state problem. Of course, that may not even work, because if one border state wants an open environment, and it's neighbor a wall ... well, a wall without an end, isn't really a wall.

Some of our friends in California got me looking at this problem from their point of view. They really do have a serious mess on their hands as it relates to illegals. What I'm hoping (but not holding my breath) is that some of them will take a better look at my state and try to understand our differences.

I'm pretty sure most of them will just discount my viewpoints as those of a kid ... can't do much about that ... but I can't get past the raw numbers and information I have from someone very wise and in-the-know, as it relates to this issue and my home state.

Again, serious debate encouraged ... or post something sarcastic, if you think it will further the end goal of moving the debate forward.



popeye1250 -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 11:59:45 AM)

Caitlyn, at some point, probably fairly soon, California is going to go Bankrupt because of Illegals.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 11:59:52 AM)

quote:

What I'm hoping (but not holding my breath) is that some of them will take a better look at my state and try to understand our differences.


caitlyn,
I don't see much difference. In fact, the more I try to look the more I see common ground. Illegal workers cost money well in excess of tax money spent. One of the sources below nets the impact.

Again, the most common ground is basic. In every State it is illegal to hire an illegal worker. In every state, employers who hire illegal workers are reaping extreme financial benefits to the detriment of the rest of the citizens of the State and the Country.

According to this source, strictly numbers, Texas is second to California as a destination of illegal immigration. http://www.heartheissues.com/illegal-immigrants.html

quote:


Analysis of the latest Census data indicates Texas’s illegal immigrant population is costing the state’s taxpayers more than $4.7 billion per year for education, medical care and incarceration. Even if the estimated tax contributions of illegal immigrant workers are subtracted, net outlays still amount to more than $3.7 billion per year. The annual fiscal burden amounts to about $725 per Texas household headed by a native-born resident.


The more than $4.7 billion in costs incurred by Texas taxpayers annually result from outlays in the following areas:


Education. Based on estimates of the illegal immigrant population in Texas and documented costs of K-12 schooling, Texans spend more than $4 billion annually on education for illegal immigrant children and for their U.S.-born siblings. About 11.9 percent of the K-12 public school students in Texas are children of illegal aliens.
Health Care. Taxpayer-funded medical outlays for health care provided to the state’s illegal alien population amount to about $520 million a year.
Incarceration. The uncompensated cost of incarcerating illegal aliens in Texas’s state and county prisons amounts to about $150 million a year (not including local jail detention costs or related law enforcement and judicial expenditures or the monetary costs of the crimes that led to their incarceration).
Source: http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?


    quote:

    Across Texas, the debate over illegal immigration has spilled into county commission hearings and hospital board meetings. A study ordered by commissioners in Harris County, which includes Houston, found that about one-fifth of the patients in its health system last year were immigrants without documents, most of them from Mexico. Their numbers had increased 44 percent in three years, the study found, and their care had cost the county $97.3 million, about 14 percent of the health system’s total operating costs.

    Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/us/18immig.html


    quote:

    The Harris County Hospital District alone doled out $330 million in free medical care to illegal immigrants over the last three years. Even more ominously, the flood of illegal immigrants seeking free health care may crowd out U.S. citizens. Many public hospitals in Texas are already overburdened and some such as Brackenridge Hospital in Austin have begun turning patients away.

    Source: http://www.vdare.com/misc/levin_illegals_in_er.htm

    Edited to add:
    As a point of information, this is why there are few inner city hospitals in LA.



    popeye1250 -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 12:05:00 PM)

    Caitlyn, does Texas have a shortage of High School dropouts to do those Lawn Jocky type jobs? Or to work in hotels, restaurants, etc?



    caitlyn -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 2:14:50 PM)

    Thanks to everyone for contributing.
     
    Mercnbeth and Popeye, seem to be contradicting each other a bit. Mercnbeth seems to think that California and Texas have a similar problem, and Popeye seems to think that California will go bankrupt because of illegals. And yet, my state has an eight billion dollar surplus. Obviously we either don't have similar problems (which is what I believe) or there is another reason why California has financial difficulties.
     
    Mercnbeth, please don't think I'm trying to be difficult, because I absolutely am not. As I said, I have no opinion formed on this issue, other than I'm not forming one until factual information is presented.
     
    Now, the F.A.I.R. report is a great bit of lobby group work, but doesn't really qualify as factual. That report made the rounds around here and was widely thrashed for doing things like applying the entire cost of Texas State Troopers (1.7 Billion) to the cost of illegals. The "Hear the Issues" website lists no sources, but it's pretty obvious they are using the F.A.I.R. report, because the numbers are identical. All of these reports build on the 1997 report by Dr. Donald Huddle (right here at Rice University), that put nearly twice the burden on the taxpayer.
     
    I had a professor say something that has always stuck in my head, "If something is clearly true, it should clearly be easy to prove it." This issue falls in that category for me. If it is clearly true that in Texas, illegals are costing taxpayers disproportunate to their contribution in sales tax and lottery ticket sales, is should be easy to prove by sources other than lobby groups.
     
    For Popeye, the issue of high school dropouts is unclear. I don't have any real data to present, and I have no intention of presenting theory from websites (of which you can find many). I will give some rumor and local lore (and please understand that this is not even 1% backed by anything), but the rumor is that most dropouts in the valley are trafficking drugs and making a killing doing it. Even if low wage jobs were available, they wouldn't do them. Again, this is backed by nothing, other then South Texas rumor.
     
    Again, thank you both for the contribution. I've become convinced that California needs to do something about illegals, immediately. The numbers absolutely add up, and the method of getting tax revenue supports the conclusion that California is being taken to the cleaners by illegal workers.
     
    As for Texas, I'm not even close to being convinced that is the case. The more we discuss this, the more I think state solutions are the answer.



    Alumbrado -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 2:44:03 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: caitlyn

    ....Again, serious debate encouraged ... or post something sarcastic, if you think it will further the end goal of moving the debate forward.


    I wasn't being sarcastic, I was presenting real world factors that should be considered before making pronouncements about 'doing something'.

    A shame nobody was interested in discussing them.



    caitlyn -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 2:47:27 PM)

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
    I wasn't being sarcastic, I was presenting real world factors that should be considered before making pronouncements about 'doing something'.

    A shame nobody was interested in discussing them.


    No ... I said I was the one being sarcastic. I loved your contribution and think you made great points. I want to answer, but need to research, in order to actually have something worth putting in writing. [:D]



    popeye1250 -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 2:49:11 PM)

    Caitlyn, if your state has an $8 Billion "surplus" then they're taxing you guys too much and that money should be returned to the Taxpayers!



    caitlyn -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 3:03:14 PM)

    Well, the figure comes from the State Comptrollers Office, so I would imagine it is accurate.
     
    To highjack this thread for a bit (but it's related) ... we trash on the government a lot here, and I'm guilty for sure. This is one instance where my state's government did something pretty smart. We get most of our revenue from sales tax and a good little chunk from the lottery. When all the refugees came from New Orleans, they spent a ton of money in the Houston area and basically revitalized a place that has been depressed since the Enron situation.
     
    Now, how does that play into this discussion on illegals? Simple ... it illustrates why we need to know the whole truth before taking a stand. Everyone around here was bent that we had all these refugees. Now, most kept their mouth shut, because everyone felt sorry for what happened to them, but when they weren't around, people around here were bitching.
     
    Now we find out that those refugees pumped billions in sales tax revenue into this area, and billions into local business, and bought a ton of lottery tickets.
     
    Lesson learned ... know the result, before forming opinions. This drives the whole thread.



    popeye1250 -> RE: Illegals: California & Texas (7/20/2006 6:13:50 PM)

    Caitlyn, are you saying that it's all about money?
    Damn, you sound like a Republican.



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