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RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/20/2006 5:49:05 PM   
HollyS


Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

I used to think of humiliation as always abusive…the name-calling, berating, belittling kind some actually like; but I cannot abide.  It’s a hard limit for me…too much like my childhood.  Consequently, I avoided ‘humiliation’.


I am still in this mindset, for a lot of reasons.  Beyond any childhood issues, I worked with domestic violence survivors for many years and developed a horrid aversion to much of the language that so many kinksters find erotic.  To hear the word c*nt instantly puts me back doing shelter work, where women would relate their S.Os telling them "You're such a stupid c*nt, I don't know why I let you live."  I'm to the point now where I can deal with it as a body part reference but hearing it as a personal descriptive still bothers me. I guess I see humiliation as something that makes you feel worthless or awful about yourself, which is a place I'd really rather not go.

That being said, how do people see the difference between humiliation and vulnerability?  Was what you did at Thunder truly humiliating or was it more a matter of being made vulnerable in front of others?  If humiliation is being disgraced or dishonored, would it maybe be more humiliating to not obey rather than do as one is told?  I understand being made more vulnerable and even perhaps being humbled in front of a group, but I'm trying to define how those things differ from being humiliated in the sense that Bearlee, IB and others have spoken of here.   Clearly this scene was really hot for you -- was it feeling terrible in the situation that was a turn on?  Was it once you didn't feel bad about it anymore and shifted your focus to the people you were scening with?  Something else?

These are issues I struggle with and I've still not been able to resolve for myself.  Where is the line between exposure and dependence on another for one's everything... and being brought so low that eroticism is the last thing on your mind? 

~Holly




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I wish my lawn were emo, so it would cut itself.

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/20/2006 6:06:07 PM   
Caretakr


Posts: 1221
Joined: 6/24/2006
Status: offline 		In seeing abuse where none exists.

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/20/2006 6:19:36 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		I say the best way is not to play games and remind her how helpless she is to you emotionally. Tell her the truth, that she can’t stop you from doing anything and that she will do anything you want. Make her do humiliating things and tell her...

“See I know you will do anything for me, slut.”

Realism trumps play every time.

(Damn, I feel the need to add a disclaimer. After it’s over, I hold her, reassure her and we both live happily ever after.)

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/20/2006 6:38:43 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		   One thing you can do for humiliation is to take your sub out to a shopping mall wearing a very short skirt with no panties on and pat her ass as your walking and pick up her dress to display her bare ass for those walking behind you.
One time a few years back when my then sub pissed me off I tied her hands behind her back, put her over the bed and inserted a buttplug and vibrator into her, put an overcoat on her otherwise naked body and belted her into my truck.
I took her for a little ride around town with the vibrator and buttplug turned on and with her breasts hanging out but I had the seat leaned back so she was more or less reclining.

(in reply to ExSteelAgain)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/20/2006 6:43:38 PM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		There's also something to be said about a big brown paper bag with a few ants in it, a table full of clothes pins, a violet wand with a wartenberg wheel attachment and a female sub who is humiliated by other women.  <snickerz>

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

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(in reply to Caretakr)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/20/2006 8:16:04 PM   
Misstoyou


Posts: 1149
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Humiliation and Vulnerability draws such a delightfull picture in your mind doesn't it?

...

Did you know that a study of the techniques used by the Gestapo, the KGB and the Stasi to use three examples, found that with a female the most efficient way to soften her was to order he to strip nakid ynder bright lights and being watched by interrogators. (If she is stripped she can psychologically surrender her ability to resist. Making her strip naked is her contribution and thus an active participant.) Now with a male the reverse is true. The male arrogance will decide the he can and will remove his clothes and stand in his nakid glory defiently...



I totally agree with your first statement, Iron Bear. Simply yummy. But are you sure about the second premise with males? That hasn't been my experience at all when under my initial inspection, even though they have been in their fully erect "naked glory". Perhaps the evidence you refer to has been skewed because the interrogators of males have been males? Or maybe it's the manner of my inspection...

Food for thought. Thanks.

_____________________________

~ Miss Marie

a.k.a. "mean Lady"


(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/20/2006 9:42:03 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
One thing you can do for humiliation is to take your sub out to a shopping mall wearing a very short skirt with no panties on and pat her ass as your walking and pick up her dress to display her bare ass for those walking behind you.

That's a normal shopping trip for me, though I only expose buttage selectively.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/21/2006 9:36:02 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Holly,
 
One reason I was able to find enjoyment in that scene was because they do NOT include abusive language with me…or anybody else that I’ve seen.  There is no telling anybody they’re stupid or threats made to lives…they genuinely LIKE their play partners.
 
I think the reason I enjoy ‘embarrassment’ is because generally it is about MY limits and MY ‘uncomfortable’ issues; not the rest of the world’s.  Kinky people are the only ones who would ‘see’ me behaving in this way I find difficult…so there really IS no reason to be so silly.  So it’s an interesting (and safe) arena to play with my foibles, yanno?  I think the reason I am able to find it so hot is because I’m able to accomplish what I’m asked (?) to do…and therefore feel a sense of accomplishment for pleasing my play-partner.  Doing so, of course, just reiterates my submissiveness.  
 
Perhaps the fact that it was never about being disgraced nor dishonored that keep it more ‘fun’ for me, too.  
 
I hope that helps…I’m not really sure about how this works…I’m as amazed as anybody!  
 
bearlee

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/21/2006 9:59:38 AM   
BillsGalSusan


Posts: 69
Joined: 7/18/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you for this, Bearlee. Humiliation isn't anything I really have been able to understand very well. Your account helps.

Perhaps because we don't play in public, I'm pretty unlikely to experience anything similar. The closest I have come, I think, is early on in our relationship, Bill told me to get the heavy nipple clamps (which I hated then and still hate) out of the drawer. In a frenzied pique of temper, I removed them from the drawer and threw them out of our open bedroom window, into the alley.

Yup, you guessed it--I was sent out to the alley, as nekkid as the day I was born, to retrieve them. It was dark, and I'm 99.9% sure no one saw me, but I still shiver (not in a bad way  )when I think about it.

Another Susan

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/21/2006 10:24:31 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		LOL... a case of the punishment fit the crime?  <grinz>
 
Well, I've had one I really thought was going to end up being my Dom.  We dated seriously about six months when I discovered he was married & lying his ass off.  I was devastated, to say the least.  Still, I do remember some fun embarrassing moments:
 
He enjoyed playing ‘Doctor’ and examining me thoroughly…which I found more than a little uncomfortable in a hot and embarrassing sort of way (and reminded me of my childhood).  LOL
 
He had a ‘thing’ for my butt…and would make me ‘spread’ for him in the most indelicate of ways!
 
He’d follow me into the bathroom and watch while I peed… embarrassing in a childish kinda way; yanno?
 
He threatened me with a litter-box more than once…we broke up before he ever was able to follow through.  I’m quite sure it was coming, though!
 
He once asked for something and when I didn’t jump right up and get it…asked if I had not heard him.  I was embarrassed as the dickens that I had, but just didn’t respond.  Hardly part of the ‘agreement’!  This was a more ‘serious’ embarrassment than the rest.
 
bearlee

(in reply to BillsGalSusan)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/22/2006 3:42:19 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Humiliation  and  Vulnerability draws such a delightfull picture in your mind doesn't it?
 
Yes, it does.

quote:

Did you know that a study of the techniques used by the Gestapo, the KGB and the Stasi  to use three examples, ...

Not that it will surprise you, but yes.  Later in this thread someone mentions the techniques used by the Chinese.  Actually one example of theirs is remarkably subtle... they befriend you, they get your guard down, they get you to make a small consession and then they have you... in small steps, they eventually own you.


quote:

Sometimes the psychology and techniques used by Secret Police and other organizations is or use for the BDSM and similar lifestyles as long as it is modified so as not to be destructive and the operators have a good understanding of what they do..

It works, but plain old psychology and, in my opinion behavioral psychology, work even better.  Its simple cause and effect.  Once you know what causes someone's behavior, you know what drives them, what motivates them.  Manipulate that and you control who they are.

quote:

Again I ask:

Now tell me, how did you get the sub/slave into this desirable possition????

Functional assessment followed by stimulus control...
... or in plain terms, I observed and listened until I knew what things she responded to, what motivated her, what stimulated her.  I then simply controlled those stimulus conditions.

You'd be amazed how many women already see themselves as sluts when they look in the mirror.  Maybe its because of something stupid they did, or some guy who took advantage of them once, or what that creepy uncle did to them, something...  Did you think all those Girls Gone Wild videos were just a fluke?  Just a bunch of drunk girls being exploited?  Did it never occur to you that they're humiliating themselves deliberately.  That they're trying to make the way the world see's them (beautiful, nice, pretty, desirable) match the way they see themselves (stupid, sluts, worthless, bad).  People do that, its like the false humility of someone who won't accept praise that they've earned.  They don't accept it because their self image is so poor they can't ever believe they deserve it, even when they really do.

How did I humiliate her?  I listened to what she wanted me to do, in between all the things she said, she told me what she wanted.  She begged me to do this to her.  She wanted me to see what a slut she is, to accept it about her.

The tricky bit is showing her she's something more than that.  That's the hard part, that's the part they fight against.

... Do not envy the man with the X-ray eyes,
In the 50's, Ray Milland pierced the skies... 

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/22/2006 5:16:37 AM   
wandering4u


Posts: 167
Joined: 6/18/2006
Status: offline 		One of the most effective methods that I've found . She wears a skirt with no panties. We go for a drive in car during rush hour with her skirt tucked up so she is very visible. When we pull up next to a truck, I just tap the horn.  Truckers can be very creative with their language skills and the traffic makes for a long time in view. 

< Message edited by wandering4u -- 7/22/2006 5:18:55 AM >

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/22/2006 5:49:22 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DoctorDubious

Pardon my rudeness,
but I suspect the average BDSM woman
would laugh in the face of some huffing old Nazi
who merely did this and say... "Is that all you got, old man?"

Then she'd slap his red face with her tits....


LOL! What a great image

quote:


So, ask yourself,
what about herself, her mind, her history
does NOT want to be exposed
under that blinding, metaphorical, single-spot light?

That's where I'd start...
... then ya dig around a bit...
..... see how she squirms, struggles..


It's nice to see someone is on the right track. Being naked doesn't make me feel humiliated and only in certain situations would it make me feel vulnerable (in the context of a D/s relationship or a BDSM scene it definitely doesn't  do the trick. Also, I can feel vulnerable without feeling humiliated. They are completely different emotions evoked by different stimuli.

For me humiliation comes from getting inside my head and figuring out what core truths I protect and don't want exposed. That's not easy to do and it takes someone who either knows me *very* well or is incredibly intuitive....and also has the balls to go 'there' because there isn't as simple as calling me a cunt or telling me I'm useless.

(in reply to DoctorDubious)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/22/2006 7:05:34 AM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Treated in the manner the op suggests would certainly humiliate me and make me obedient out of fear of survival but it would not make me emotionally vulnerable. Physically goes without stating.

And of course it would be a one time only, because I would never agree to be with someone who did that to me again. Emotional vulnerability for me comes from deep trust in my partner. Break the trust and there is no more relationship.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/22/2006 7:25:58 AM   
BillsGalSusan


Posts: 69
Joined: 7/18/2006
Status: offline 		I think MsIncognito's experiences/conclusions pretty much match my own.
quote:

Being naked doesn't make me feel humiliated and only in certain situations would it make me feel vulnerable (in the context of a D/s relationship or a BDSM scene it definitely doesn't  do the trick. Also, I can feel vulnerable without feeling humiliated. They are completely different emotions evoked by different stimuli.

For me humiliation comes from getting inside my head and figuring out what core truths I protect and don't want exposed. That's not easy to do and it takes someone who either knows me *very* well or is incredibly intuitive....and also has the balls to go 'there' because there isn't as simple as calling me a cunt or telling me I'm useless.


Oddly (perhaps) I had far less problem with Bill enforcing an open door policy in the bathroom or intensely examining my body  than I did (initially) with him going through my purse.

I'm not altogether sure about the difference between shame and humiliation, but, I don't think anything he does privately makes me feel humiliated. Even silly, and not particularly D/s related, "failures" on my part can make me feel ashamed. We do not take our kink public, but I am thinking I would be more likely to be humiliated in that sort of setting.

I truly enjoy feeling vulnerable. I suspect that enjoyment is there because I don't feel any fear what-so-ever--just the sense of being little and powerless--and what submissive woman wouldn't like that? I'm pretty sure I don't feel any fear because I trust him completely (we've got quite a long history) and things like anticipation of pain (for example) really don't frighten me even if I know they are not going to be terrific fun. It helps that I am not particularly phobic about anything, too.

Another Susan

< Message edited by BillsGalSusan -- 7/22/2006 7:35:39 AM >

(in reply to MsIncognito)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Humiliation and Vulnerability - 7/22/2006 7:26:18 AM   
hunterwolf


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/25/2006
Status: offline 		Your cage sounds really hot for puppy play. You should sell them on eBay :)

(in reply to vield)
Profile   Post #: 56
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