Awareness
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Joined: 9/8/2010
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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Yes I fuckety-fucking am. And, for the third time, I said 'my first thought at a woman giving birth to multiple babies then immediately killing them would more likely be majorly fucked up rather than 'evil'. This doesn't make what she did any less horrifying - but I'd rather see her secured in a looney bin than a prison.' I didn't say that this would be *conclusion after much consideration*. Why? What difference does it make what particular facility she's incarcerated in? Good Lord, a woman's mindbogglingly evil and you STILL want to protect her? You can't even acknowledge your own implicit bias.
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The reality about this case is that a) everybody would be horrified b) few people would have seen or heard anything like it before therefore c) most people would be desperately searching for an explanation. Myself, I don't know whether we're looking at extreme evil, extreme madness, or a mixture of both. Yet you're quite happy to condemn men because well, y'know, possession of a penis makes a person a piece of shit.
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Stop straw-manning, Awareness. I'm sorry that nobody here has presented the 'feminist-bogeywoman' view that you and Nick so dearly want to have presented for your delight and righteous fury - but you'll just have to live with facts on this occasion. I'm pointing out your own inherent hypocrisy. If you can't handle that, it's entirely your own problem.
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As I've also said before, 'feminism' is defined by social scientists in the way that I and the other foaming anti-feminists here have defined it. Weird. I didn't think you were the type to collude with anti-feminists, but I guess that's a measure of your confusion.
And I will point out - once again - that 'social scientists' do not get to define feminism - or indeed any words. The meaning of words is defined by their usage within a community. And the community in this case is the Western societies in which people who advocate for advantages for women while removing their responsibilities identify as "feminists". (Notably, societies such as Islam and those of Eastern Europe don't tolerate such nonsense - it's only wealthy societies where people have too much time on their hands who engage in this idiocy.)
Feminists don't get to piggyback on a bunch of social, legislative and political change which conveys advantages to women and causes men to suffer, then claim that feminism isn't advocating for such things. It is. And feminists are. When the conversation which causes such changes is dominated by self-identified feminists who advocate for such changes in the name of feminism, then THAT'S WHAT FEMINISM FUCKING IS, you fucking intellectual coward.
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You've used the term 'feminist orthodoxy' elsewhere - lumping in various species of female aggrandisement, female supremacy and outright man-hating. That is not 'feminist orthodoxy'. Yes, because THAT'S WHAT FEMINISM IS.
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Feminist orthodoxy is about what most feminists believe - their baseline of beliefs - 'to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, personal, and social rights for women'. What the fuck are you talking about, are you high? Feminist orthodoxy 101 is founded on patriarchy theory. Don't try and evade the ideological principles which underlie feminism. Doing so indicates you're fully aware that they're indefensible poppycock.
This is why so many young women refuse to identify as feminist. Because the unprincipled vilification of men is not an ideology they want to be part of. And when the primary beneficiaries of your political ideology want nothing to do with you, then you've got a real fucking problem.
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We all know people for whom every 'socialist' is automatically a 'communist'; Was the Soviet Union socialist? Yes or no?
Is China communist? Yes or no?
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every 'conservative' is automatically a 'reactionary' or even a 'fascist'. Well, yes. That's the principle labeling mentality of the left. I'm stunned you're bringing it up since this is the left's raison d'être.
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There's a huge history of propaganda behind the terms that are used in politics. All of us, across the political spectrum, know this. Oh, that political spectrum which sees you insist that people divide neatly into two tribes so they can be easily manipulated? Do go on.
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There are various ways in which that malign propaganda works. One goes: 'If X and Y have any single belief in common, they must have all their beliefs in common'. Thus, Trump has said things that have sounded like some of things Mussolini said - therefore, like Mussolini, Trump is a fascist. Another is 'tarring with the same brush': if one self-proclaimed conservative thinker believes (or even did believe, a century ago, when he was still alive) that black people are an inferior race - that's what *all* conservatives (still, now) believe. Oh, I see. You mean propaganda like "All men are potential rapists who need to be taught not to rape"? That kind of propaganda. Yes, with you so far.
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Obviously this is all balls. I think most of us, when we're being fair, will accept that a 'socialist' is someone who believes strongly in equality and the possibility of major social change towards that; Fucking bollocks. People who become socialists are disaffected losers who think the Universe is supposed to be fair. They live in a world of delusion where the prosperity of the strong is considered an affront. They would rather build a society of collective mediocrity than allow for the possibility of individual brilliance advancing the species.
We know the outcome of socialism. We've seen it. And the people suffered under it. Anyone who harbours delusions about socialism as an ideology is a fucking dimwit.
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while we'll also accept that conservatives are people who favour tradition, the 'devil we know' and a society that, for all its faults, is the best that's achievable (since that's how it's grown, almost organically, to be). Aside from the tradition, which I'll grant you, conservatives strongly believe that all virtue is encapsulated by the individual results attained from the pursuit of money. They refuse to acknowledge the role of chance, circumstance of birth or other social advantages in the production of wealth outcomes. This is a complex form of self-justification for their desire to ignore the poor, the disaffected, the sick and the less advantaged.
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We're not going to cast all socialists as Pol Pots or Stalins, nor all conservatives as would-be slavers. We're going to take the baseline set of beliefs as the orthodoxy. Your absolute insane commitment to tribal dynamics is bordering on obsessive.
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Once an ideology (using that term strictly neutrally) has bedded itself into a culture well enough, we're usually so well-versed in its use that its meaning comes to be accepted without recourse to its 'leading philosophers'. (I put that in the quote marks because it's always question that any philosopher *is* a leader of any given movement.) Thus most socialists will be aware of Marx but I can bet many would struggle to think of another 'great name'. You seem to think that an ideology gets to be defined in a sentence and then fixed in stone. You are, of course mistaken. Ideologies are defined by their social impact. Consequently, 'socialism' is defined by the vast majority of societies which implemented it, quashed individual freedoms and generally made life hell for the people living under it.
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Likewise conservatives, re conservative political philosophy - how many of them will have heard of Thomas Hobbes, considered a founder of that philosophy? But it doesn't matter. Who needs the 'big names' any more? Conservatives would argue you're pretty much defining conservatism as Western democracy. Or in the American experience, a republic.
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This is how it's worked with feminism. It's become embedded in culture, now. So it makes little sense to define 'feminism' in terms of what this or that 'leading feminist philosopher' says - or did say, hundreds of years ago. Well, given the leading feminist philosophers were basically spoiled middle-class white women who had very little reason to complain about their lives, I can understand why feminists would like to quietly draw a curtain over that period. It's embarrassing in this new age of intersectional feminism where feminists are pretending to care about gender minorities and women in third world countries. But I digress... do go on.
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Most feminists probably wouldn't have even have heard of most of those thinkers. It's now ingrained in many women, and men, that 'establishing, and achieving equal political, economic, personal, and social rights for women' is a worthy aim - Wrong. It's established in many spheres that women already possess political, economic and social equality and what the fuck are the fucking feminists on about now? What the fuck are "personal" rights and just how stupid do you have to be to try and promote them? (Hint: Very stupid).
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and the people that believe in that *are feminists*. WRONG. You do not get to co-opt people against their will into your hateful little ideology. People who believe in equality of the genders are not feminists.
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To be a man-hater or female-supremacist is, by definition, not feminist. Wrong. That is the very essence of being a feminist. It is not possible to support an ideology which promotes the idea that men are oppressors, which demonises them as "the other" and then claim you don't hate men. Feminism is basically hate speech and it's about time you deceptive motherfuckers were called on that shit.
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(And yes, you may use that as a charge against anyone you want with my blessing.) Why would I? Such a claim is patent, fucking nonsense.
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Christ's sake. Do you get this now, Awareness? Believe me dude, I'm so far ahead of you, it's embarrassing. You have no fucking idea what you're talking about. None. You live in a fantasy bubble completely disconnected from reality, refusing to acknowledging the horrific mess feminism has created and continues to create in its pursuit of advantages for women.
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If you want to continue being deliberately inaccurate - the better, perhaps, to further some aim of preventing equality and holding back progress Dude I AM accurate. You're nothing more than a shitty propagandist.
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- go ahead and continue to try to lump in every questionable or even downright looney thing than any 'leading feminist thinker' as part of the 'feminist orthodoxy'. Funny how feminists have no problem with profiting from this 'lunacy' whilst disclaiming any connection to it. Funny how feminists don't argue against this lunacy. It's left to the various stripes of MHRM to do that.
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But you'll only ever get picked up on it over and again by people who know more than you (god knows, it's theoretically possible that they might exist). Dude, there are people who know more than me but you are not one of them. You live in a world of delusion.
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Some of those people will be like me - they'll have seen terms like 'socialism' trashed so badly and for so long that it all but killed the ideology behind it. This we'll try to prevent. Ye Gods, you're an unrepentant Marxist. This explains it all.
Socialism trashed itself, dude. It's an ideology of despair and nothing is going to change that.
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Likewise we'll try to prevent the term 'feminism', kicked around with frenzied and and tireless vigour by people like you and Nick from being kicked into the long grass. And as I've repeatedly pointed out, feminism has condemned itself. Your contention that feminism has been wildly successful in achieving social, political and legislative change but has been unable to protect itself from bad press is mindbogglingly stupid. That's like saying that "Nazism was wildly successful in conquering Europe but was unable to protect itself from slander."
Feminists condemned feminism. It was revealed for being fundamentally what it is: A divisive ideology that hates men, loathes the idea of the family unit and expresses that hatred in advocacy which attempts to dehumanise men while painting women as victims.
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A person who wants 'to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, personal, and social rights for women' *is* a feminist and to be a feminist, all you have to do is hold to those principles and not say or do anything that contradicts them.
Oh for fuck's sake, I'm sick of this shit. YOU ARE A FUCKING LIAR.
You don't get to co-opt people into your nasty little movement by saying their desired outcomes align with your desired outcomes. They don't. That's like saying anyone who believes in positive economic outcomes for the majority of people is a socialist EVEN IF THEY'RE A CAPITALIST.
Ideology is not about outcomes, you dishonest, pitiful excuse for an intellectual. Ideology is about how those outcomes are best achieved. Feminism believes that outcomes are achieved by pitting women against men and casting women as victims, thus promoting feminism as a righteous cause. It completely ignores the social contract, the influence of coverture laws and the understanding of how gender roles played an enormous part in making our societies so phenomenally successful.
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You and Nick don't get to further this nasty little propaganda war that has already made so many - especially many women - agree on the one hand with the principles of feminism, but denounce those principles in horror the moment you or one of your ilk says 'Aha! You're another Germaine Greer or even an Andrea Dworkin!'. Very few sane and healthy individuals agree with the "principles of feminism". They agree with the (alleged) desired outcomes of feminism. They do not, however, agree with feminism as an ideology. And if there's a propaganda war in place, it's the feminists spreading lies and misinformation in their attempts to co-opt normal people into their man-hating ideology.
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Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.
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