RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism

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Alumbrado -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 3:10:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I think you will find Medieval slavery was a very different animal to the black slave trade which was not only European but had Arabic, Jewish, American and African involvement too. To coin a phrase, 'No shite Sherlock'...yes, there were black people involved in the Middle Passage, but I don't tend to think of them as 'different animals'... Are you now expecting anyone to believe that the Slavs held in thralldom (from which the word 'slavery' comes) weren't 'really slaves'? [8\|] You are getting frantic in your attempts to dreail your own thread. Let's get back to your initial premise, which was that violence and atrocities against one group of people justifies retaliation. Given that this particular cycle of violence goes back quite a way, and was caused by outside exploiters, why do you refuse to condemn both sides for blindly repeating it?

irishbynature -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 3:41:04 PM)
"How soon must we use the words "war crime"? How many children must be scattered in the rubble of Israeli air attacks before we reject the obscene phrase "collateral damage" and start talking about prosecution for crimes against humanity?" (Taken from the UK Independent from meatclever's link). ______________ Experts have said to us over and over....terrorism begins out of hopelessness and this cycle continues as long as we turn a blind eye to the root of the conflict. You kill a child's family and what does that child grow up to be? Many of them join groups like gangs and create terror....and the cycle continues today.....[&:] IBN

pollux -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 3:54:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: irishbynature "How soon must we use the words "war crime"? How many children must be scattered in the rubble of Israeli air attacks before we reject the obscene phrase "collateral damage" and start talking about prosecution for crimes against humanity?" (Taken from the UK Independent from meatclever's link). ______________ Was this reply directed to me? You seriously accuse ISRAEL of war crimes, for civilian deaths caused when the Israelis fight back against TERRORISTS WHO HIDE AMONG CIVILIANS? Not to put too fine a point on it, but you must be out of your freakin mind. Andy McCarthy wrote: quote: British Prime Minister Tony Blair's website notes, "Over 1,600 rockets and mortars have fallen on Northern Israel, in an arc from Haifa to Tiberias, deliberately targeting civilians." Yes, Israel has killed civilians. This is what happens in war, even as practiced by a country that strives to follow the civilized rules. And it necessarily has to happen in a war involving a terrorist organization which intentionally attacks from, and hides among, civilian population centers. But Israel is trying to hit military targets (and often undermines its military mission by providing humanitarian warnings to civilians before it attacks, which of course let the bad guys know it's time to scatter). Hezbollah, on the other hand, is TARGETING CIVILIANS, with no warnings. And with SIXTEEN HUNDRED ATTACKS. Does Hezbollah somehow get "proportionality" points under the laws of war because they haven't managed to kill the civilians they are intentionally targeting? quote: Experts have said to us over and over....terrorism begins out of hopelessness and this cycle continues as long as we turn a blind eye to the root of the conflict. You kill a child's family and what does that child grow up to be? Many of them join groups like gangs and create terror....and the cycle continues today.....[&:] IBN I think you need to start listening to some different experts. The Tibetans have suffered as much as any people in modern times, and somehow we don't have legions of Tibetan fundamentalists wreaking havoc on the wider world.

meatcleaver -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 4:32:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Alumbrado quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver I think you will find Medieval slavery was a very different animal to the black slave trade which was not only European but had Arabic, Jewish, American and African involvement too. To coin a phrase, 'No shite Sherlock'...yes, there were black people involved in the Middle Passage, but I don't tend to think of them as 'different animals'... Are you now expecting anyone to believe that the Slavs held in thralldom (from which the word 'slavery' comes) weren't 'really slaves'? [8\|] You are getting frantic in your attempts to dreail your own thread. Let's get back to your initial premise, which was that violence and atrocities against one group of people justifies retaliation. Given that this particular cycle of violence goes back quite a way, and was caused by outside exploiters, why do you refuse to condemn both sides for blindly repeating it? Look. There has been slavery from the dawn of history and in just about all cultures. I said Medieval slavery, imagining you were discussing Britain since you were in your previous post, was entirely unrelated to the black slave trade. Now I find you apparently were talking about Slavs without any indication that your were discussing Slavs. How the hell am I to know what you are discussing. The OP was really about the hypocrisy of a state claiming to go to war because of terrorism while an influential section of its society celebrate an act of terrorism. The point being, we shouldn't just accept a state saying people they are fighting are terrorists when the state seems happy with terrorism itself. And Israel isn't the only country guilty of it. Britian is too and the USA and no doubt many other countries but since Israel is involved in a war I decided to point it out.

pollux -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 4:56:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The OP was really about the hypocrisy of a state claiming to go to war because of terrorism while an influential section of its society celebrate an act of terrorism. The point being, we shouldn't just accept a state saying people they are fighting are terrorists when the state seems happy with terrorism itself. And Israel isn't the only country guilty of it. Britian is too and the USA and no doubt many other countries but since Israel is involved in a war I decided to point it out. You know, this type of rhetoric gets tossed around a lot and it really needs to be challenged. Let me tell you the difference between the "terrorism" that you claim is practiced by the US, and Britain, and Israel and the real terrorism practiced by Hamas and Hezbollah. In all three of the first set of cultures (and I would submit, in all Western cultures), the taking of innocent life is something that is regretted, grieved over, atoned for when possible, and it is something that is avoided, if possible. How many billions and how many thousands of man years do you think have been spent developing precision weapons? What is the point of a precision weapon if it's not to ensure that innocents are spared? Don't you think that if the US had wanted to, for example, we could have leveled most of urban Iraq? Fallujah could've been reduced to powder. If the British, and the Americans, and the Israelis could wave a magic wand and bring every innocent ever killed in any war back to life -- don't you think they would? I know I would, and I bet you would, and I bet nearly everyone on this board would, and that goes true for all the people in our militaries, and whether you believe it or not, that is true of the commanders and leaders, too. And if we find someone who for some reason doesn't subscribe to that ethic, they're relieved of duty and punished. Sometimes that system itself gets broken, and when it does, there's outrage and we try to fix it. None of that is true in the culture of a real terrorist. The real terrorists want to cause as much bloodshed as possible. There's no concept of proportionality. Precision weapons? Forget it. Rules of civilized warfare? Forget it. Human shields? Check. Deaths of innocent civilians? Please! That's the whole point! Strap a vest full of C4 on your body, load up with nails and ball bearings for a little extra limb-shredding oomph and walk into a pizza parlor. And for added fun, wait until the rescue & medical teams arrive, and then send suicide bomber #2 onto the scene. And the more carnage, the better.

cr0ckdile -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 4:57:50 PM)
It's amusing how the anti-Israel crowd still finds it necessary to remind us that the pro-Israel crowd abuses anti-Semitism to justify the actions of the state of Israel and then to qualify their own arguments with "I am not an anti-Semite, but..." This implies that they do recognize, in fact, that there may be something anti-Semitic about their harsh criticism of Israel while completely ignoring the smallest fault of Israel's enemies. My main point, however, is this. That Islamophobia is now being used as a tool by apologists of radical Islam to defend any action taken by that group. It is far more common to read about Muslim activists trumping the "Islamophobia" card than it is to find a Jew who argues that criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic. More so, those who sympathize with radical Islam and its agenda choose to ignore the fact that Islam is a philosophy, and hating a philosophy (as say, Communism, Nihilism, Nazism, etc.) is not racist, it has adherents from many different races. Anti-Semitism, on the otherhand, is the hatred of an ethnic group (and if you're a traditional anti-Semite, you also believe Jews to be a biological group). It is important to understand the distinctions, and more so, that radical Muslims trump the quite invalid Islamophobia card much more often than Jews or Israelis or pro-Israel people use the anti-Semitism card. And finally, although you claim not to be anti-Semitic, why is it I see no section on this forum criticizing the actions of Muslims? Somehow, the anti-Israel crowd, always impartial and never anti-Semitic (ha!), only has time to criticize Israel.

Level -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 5:00:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The OP was really about the hypocrisy of a state claiming to go to war because of terrorism while an influential section of its society celebrate an act of terrorism. The point being, we shouldn't just accept a state saying people they are fighting are terrorists when the state seems happy with terrorism itself. And Israel isn't the only country guilty of it. Britian is too and the USA and no doubt many other countries but since Israel is involved in a war I decided to point it out. You know, this type of rhetoric gets tossed around a lot and it really needs to be challenged. Let me tell you the difference between the "terrorism" that you claim is practiced by the US, and Britain, and Israel and the real terrorism practiced by Hamas and Hezbollah. In all three of the first set of cultures (and I would submit, in all Western cultures), the taking of innocent life is something that is regretted, grieved over, atoned for when possible, and it is something that is avoided, if possible. How many billions and how many thousands of man years do you think have been spent developing precision weapons? What is the point of a precision weapon if it's not to ensure that innocents are spared? *Don't you think that if the US had wanted to, for example, we could have leveled most of urban Iraq?* Fallujah could've been reduced to powder. If the British, and the Americans, and the Israelis could wave a magic wand and bring every innocent ever killed in any war back to life -- don't you think they would? I know I would, and I bet you would, and I bet nearly everyone on this board would, and that goes true for all the people in our militaries, and whether you believe it or not, that is true of the commanders and leaders, too. And if we find someone who for some reason doesn't subscribe to that ethic, they're relieved of duty and punished. Sometimes that system itself gets broken, and when it does, there's outrage and we try to fix it. None of that is true in the culture of a real terrorist. The real terrorists want to cause as much bloodshed as possible. There's no concept of proportionality. Precision weapons? Forget it. Rules of civilized warfare? Forget it. Human shields? Check. Deaths of innocent civilians? Please! That's the whole point! Strap a vest full of C4 on your body, load up with nails and ball bearings for a little extra limb-shredding oomph and walk into a pizza parlor. And for added fun, wait until the rescue & medical teams arrive, and then send suicide bomber #2 onto the scene. And the more carnage, the better. Excellent point, pollux.

meatcleaver -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 5:07:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The OP was really about the hypocrisy of a state claiming to go to war because of terrorism while an influential section of its society celebrate an act of terrorism. The point being, we shouldn't just accept a state saying people they are fighting are terrorists when the state seems happy with terrorism itself. And Israel isn't the only country guilty of it. Britian is too and the USA and no doubt many other countries but since Israel is involved in a war I decided to point it out. You know, this type of rhetoric gets tossed around a lot and it really needs to be challenged. Let me tell you the difference between the "terrorism" that you claim is practiced by the US, and Britain, and Israel and the real terrorism practiced by Hamas and Hezbollah. In all three of the first set of cultures (and I would submit, in all Western cultures), the taking of innocent life is something that is regretted, grieved over, atoned for when possible, and it is something that is avoided, if possible. How many billions and how many thousands of man years do you think have been spent developing precision weapons? What is the point of a precision weapon if it's not to ensure that innocents are spared? Don't you think that if the US had wanted to, for example, we could have leveled most of urban Iraq? Fallujah could've been reduced to powder. Regretted and grieved? Have you been watching the news lately? I see not regret, I see no grief for all the innocent people killed. Israel is attacking more civil installations this evening which incidently is against international law or the farce that is called international law. If the British, and the Americans, and the Israelis could wave a magic wand and bring every innocent ever killed in any war back to life -- don't you think they would? I know I would, and I bet you would, and I bet nearly everyone on this board would, and that goes true for all the people in our militaries, and whether you believe it or not, that is true of the commanders and leaders, too. And if we find someone who for some reason doesn't subscribe to that ethic, they're relieved of duty and punished. Sometimes that system itself gets broken, and when it does, there's outrage and we try to fix it. Wanting people to come back to life after deaths that caused through what can only be described as criminal negligence is meaningless rhetoric. None of that is true in the culture of a real terrorist. The real terrorists want to cause as much bloodshed as possible. There's no concept of proportionality. Precision weapons? Forget it. Rules of civilized warfare? Forget it. Human shields? Check. Deaths of innocent civilians? Please! That's the whole point! Strap a vest full of C4 on your body, load up with nails and ball bearings for a little extra limb-shredding oomph and walk into a pizza parlor. And for added fun, wait until the rescue & medical teams arrive, and then send suicide bomber #2 onto the scene. And the more carnage, the better. What motivates people to do such a thing. We are led directly back to state terrorism. To call one terrorism and the other legitimate killings or colateral damage is putting ones head in the sand and legitimizing state authorised murder. What do you call extra-judicial executions using air to ground missiles that kill anywhere from two to 6-7-8 innocent civilians while trying to take out one terrorist/freedom fighter? If you don't call that terrorism then you are turning a blind eye to murder. Getting back to the OP. It was just ironic that a state that is claiming to fight a war against terrorism had its former Prime Minister and some other notables celebrating an act of terrorism.

irishbynature -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 6:40:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: irishbynature "How soon must we use the words "war crime"? How many children must be scattered in the rubble of Israeli air attacks before we reject the obscene phrase "collateral damage" and start talking about prosecution for crimes against humanity?" (Taken from the UK Independent from meatclever's link). ______________ Was this reply directed to me? You seriously accuse ISRAEL of war crimes, for civilian deaths caused when the Israelis fight back against TERRORISTS WHO HIDE AMONG CIVILIANS? Not to put too fine a point on it, but you must be out of your freakin mind. Andy McCarthy wrote: quote: British Prime Minister Tony Blair's website notes, "Over 1,600 rockets and mortars have fallen on Northern Israel, in an arc from Haifa to Tiberias, deliberately targeting civilians." Yes, Israel has killed civilians. This is what happens in war, even as practiced by a country that strives to follow the civilized rules. And it necessarily has to happen in a war involving a terrorist organization which intentionally attacks from, and hides among, civilian population centers. But Israel is trying to hit military targets (and often undermines its military mission by providing humanitarian warnings to civilians before it attacks, which of course let the bad guys know it's time to scatter). Hezbollah, on the other hand, is TARGETING CIVILIANS, with no warnings. And with SIXTEEN HUNDRED ATTACKS. Does Hezbollah somehow get "proportionality" points under the laws of war because they haven't managed to kill the civilians they are intentionally targeting? quote: Experts have said to us over and over....terrorism begins out of hopelessness and this cycle continues as long as we turn a blind eye to the root of the conflict. You kill a child's family and what does that child grow up to be? Many of them join groups like gangs and create terror....and the cycle continues today.....[&:] IBN I think you need to start listening to some different experts. The Tibetans have suffered as much as any people in modern times, and somehow we don't have legions of Tibetan fundamentalists wreaking havoc on the wider world. NO, this was not directed to you. It was a response to meatcleavr link's.[;)] Warmly, Irishbynature

maybemaybenot -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 7:37:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: irishbynature "How soon must we use the words "war crime"? How many children must be scattered in the rubble of Israeli air attacks before we reject the obscene phrase "collateral damage" and start talking about prosecution for crimes against humanity?" (Taken from the UK Independent from meatclever's link). ______________ irish: my reply is not directed at you personally, but to the quote you have quoted. As I have sit here catching up on the replies to this post, I also have the news on TV. One reporter was reporting that Israel has advised the Citizens of Lebanon to leave the south, as they supposedly are preparing a ground attack. That report was from Israel. Shortly there after a reporter was reporting from Lebanon. He said that there is word that Hezzbollah has set up road blocks to prevent the citizens of Lebannon from leaving the south. Ironic isn't it? That Hezzbollah claims to be at war with Israel, yet is willing to sacrifice the Lebannese Citizens and put them in harms way. I read this and keep shaking my head, still trying to understand why no one on the Anti Israeli side of this arguement is willing to criticize ANYTHING Hezzbollah does. I am obviously Pro Israel.. but I can easily admit, I see the Lebanese people and governments side of this war. But certainly not Hezzbollahs. mbmbn

Termyn8or -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 9:13:01 PM)
Wow, what a thread. First of all why don't you say anti-Jew or anti-Israel ? Anti-Semitic is a misnomer. Arabs are Semitic, along with Lebonese, Syrians etc. Zionists are sort of dispossessed Russians from the Khazar mountain region. There are anti-Israeli groups even in the US, who are composed of Hebrew Jews. Rabbis. Rabbi Yisroel Weiss comes to mind. His groups contends that it is not yet time for Jews to have their own state, and the group carries signs in protest saying that "Zionism is not Judaism". This is a group of Rabbis, and is not large, and strangely the only reason I know of them is because there has been legislation introduced in the houses of the US government that would criminalize criticism of Israel. See they demonstrated in NY. Could you see it now, actual vested learned Rabbis going to jail for anti-Semitism ? Apparently some of our politicians did. They introduced H.R. 4230 in 2003-2004.I have a copy of the ten findings which led to this crap and if you can't find it online I will scan it and post a link. Did any of these creeps ever even read the Constitution or Bill Of Rights ? They are criticising a running candidate right now for voting against the Patriot act on TV, this election is near. Talk about negative advertising. That makes me want to vote for him, and it is his opponents doing it ! So, my friends, and I'll call you that because even those who disagree with me do not insult me, or try not to. The question is, what do we do about it ? Some ways, the military-industrial complex has gotten to the point Eisenhower thought it would. It will indeed topple on it's own. If it gets to the point like pre-WW2 Germany where you needed a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a postage stamp, the People might go back to barter. Either that or actively seek new leadership. Actively seeking new leadership is risky, the current regime is very powerful here. Realistically, they will probably kill 90% of us before they step down, or we get them down. Also, there are economic things we can do, like start getting generators, getting together and figuring out who has what and then stabbing the economy with a huge boycott ( a Jewish term by the way ). It would have to be for a long time, and I am sure everyone will not or cannot do it. So what we have is if say 40% of our taxpaying Citizens could avoid commerce for about six months it may send a wakeup call, but the results of that are dubious as well. What does not kill them will only make them stronger. (BTW, there are estimates that only about 55% of us pay taxes in the first place, this is a smaller constituency necessary) If nobody does anything, those who say that "them" knocking at your door and commandeering your house do not deserve violence will find out exactly why you are wrong. In my view of moraliy, aggression, dirty deeds and skullduggery of all kinds must be met with reprisals that are more severe. It should be severe enough to prevent further problems, like the settlers did to the Native Americans. It seems to be OK for Israel, why not the rest of us. And why can they continually discriminate racially in their country and we cannot ? what if we don't like them ? What if we don't like the JDL which has been busted for planting bombs in civilian buildings in THIS country, the hand that feeds them. Targets. What if we don't like a major church organization having big investments in Israel ? It was either the Presbyterian or Episcolpalian church that has divested itself of all major investments in Israel. The ADL denounced this move as anti-Semitic and racist. Who the F___ do these people think they are ? Churches must invest in them now ? Realize that I am not talking about the average Jew on the street here. And certainly not those ordained Rabbis led by Rabbi Weiss. I just don't know what to do, we do not have access to the media and can't seem to get any solidarity at all. You think we don't need a regime change in the US ? Think again, oil prices are the highest ever while the oil companies have near record profits. But they are stealing the oil from Iraq for one. They are pocketing the money, of course disbursed through the usual channels. All perfectly legal you see, because it is they who say what is legal. Let me ask fellow US Citizens this : Why are anti-Bush protesters forced to move to a location over ¼ of a mile from Bush's location when he comes to a city ? and why must all questions to Bush in public be approved beforehand? Realistically if someone wanted to kill him (and don't even get that in your head, then we would have Cheney), wouldn't they carry a pro-Bush sign to get closer ? I don't want to say it, but some of Alex Jones's conclusions may be right. That is scary. T

Lilmissbossy -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 9:49:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile It's amusing how the anti-Israel crowd still finds it necessary to remind us that the pro-Israel crowd abuses anti-Semitism to justify the actions of the state of Israel and then to qualify their own arguments with "I am not an anti-Semite, but..." This implies that they do recognize, in fact, that there may be something anti-Semitic about their harsh criticism of Israel while completely ignoring the smallest fault of Israel's enemies. Many Jews are opposed to the state of Israel, are they "anti-Semites" too? If the criteria for being anti-Semitic is that you speak out against Israel, you're going to have to call an awful lot of traditional Jews anti-Semites.

Alumbrado -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 10:01:37 PM)
Not unless they are on record as saying they want to kill every Jew on the planet...now that's being anti-Semitic.

mnottertail -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 10:08:05 PM)
What the fuck do Jews got to do with anything? This is a nationalism looking for trouble....... We got caucasoids, negroids and mongoloids............ LOLOLOLOLOLOL, seems we got enough trouble there without checking Jewisoids into the altercation. Everybody wants to be set apart, so we got this asswipe called jesus and god now....... So for this we risk the world... I would rather bet on those that give head and those that accept it.......... Simplifies all the religious shit, don't you know?

mnottertail -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 10:11:54 PM)
Give us a wee tout for that now, would ye?

Lilmissbossy -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 10:18:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail What the fuck do Jews got to do with anything? This is a nationalism looking for trouble....... We got caucasoids, negroids and mongoloids............ LOLOLOLOLOLOL, seems we got enough trouble there without checking Jewisoids into the altercation. Everybody wants to be set apart, so we got this asswipe called jesus and god now....... So for this we risk the world... I would rather bet on those that give head and those that accept it.......... Simplifies all the religious shit, don't you know? "Barman, I'll have whatever he's had"

mnottertail -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 10:21:21 PM)
LOL, the guv'ner will lose his license serving such as you.

CrappyDom -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/20/2006 11:51:10 PM)
How Republicans betray America and why it will be liberals who free it. Republicans believe that if America is ever occupied, it is wrong to fight back, it is wrong to gouge out the eye of your oppressor, it is cheating to shoot them in the back. I am sorry, as a liberal, if ANYONE ever took over this country, I would have no problem killing their women and children to drive them out of America.

meatcleaver -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/21/2006 12:07:07 AM)
The thing is Level. There is being a good job done of leveling Iraq, not directly but by the chaos created and if you look at Fulujah, that was leveled. As one local Iraqi said, before the American attack we had a city full of insurgents, now we don't have the insurgents and don't have a city either. The US and Britain have been criminally negligent in Iraq, the Iraqis never wanted us there in the first place. The British army which has the easier task in Basra and who has a softly softly approach, has pretty much accepted they are not wanted there. Let's not get into the WMD argument. Claiming to be civilised and crying crocodile tears for the dead doesn't make the dead get up and walk and it doesn't make their living relatives feel any better. It still breeds resentment. Perhaps the next time we go fighting for civilisation, we should stop and consider what being civilised actually means. We don't fit the definition.

meatcleaver -> RE: Israel doesn't believe in terrorism (7/21/2006 12:24:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot irish: my reply is not directed at you personally, but to the quote you have quoted. As I have sit here catching up on the replies to this post, I also have the news on TV. One reporter was reporting that Israel has advised the Citizens of Lebanon to leave the south, as they supposedly are preparing a ground attack. That report was from Israel. Shortly there after a reporter was reporting from Lebanon. He said that there is word that Hezzbollah has set up road blocks to prevent the citizens of Lebannon from leaving the south. Ironic isn't it? That Hezzbollah claims to be at war with Israel, yet is willing to sacrifice the Lebannese Citizens and put them in harms way. What news did you watch this on, FOX? I watch a lot of international news and I've heard nothing about Lebanese being prevented from leaving. The most that is mentioned is that Israel has warned civilians to get out as quick as they can. There apparently has been logistical problems because of so many people trying to get out and some scared to move and if they do they get caught in the crossfire. In fact if you look in yesterday's newspapers there were pictures of a family unable to get out by car because Israel destroyed the infrastructure not because Hezzbollah was preventing them. EDIT: I've just got to add because the Iraq war really pisses me off as much as the current Israeli offensive. People who were against the Iraqi war said that the only people that can solve Iraq's problems were Iraqis themselves. Now we are in the farcicle situation where Bush and Blair are saying that the only people that can solve the Iraq problem are the Iraqis themselves. Why the fuck did we invade in the first place? WMD's being the excuse is not good enough, there were enough people at the time saying this was just an excuse and that no WMDs will ever be found. And as far as I am aware, none have!

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