RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 2:31:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

Kind of like this business about Israel bulldozing homes with the families still inside?  And meatcleaver claiming that Israel receives three times the amount of US aid that Egypt does?



You're like that brat kid at the back of the class who just has to keep picking his nose because the teacher told him to stop doing it.

I have already told you before, LAST NIGHT IN FACT, I posted a link to an AMERICAN site with the break down of figures. I said I was wrong but I was too tired to do the math but all the figures were on the site.



CrappyDom -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 2:34:17 PM)

The reality with the fucking shithole that is the middle east is that everything is everyones fault and arguing over who fucked whos sister and who ate the last piece of pie isn't going to solve squat.

Till the West makes it in the interest of Israel and the Arabs to make peace work, those idiots are going to fight in the backseat just like two children with razors.

Make Isreal's massive foreign aid be tied to the standard of living of the palestinians and make it clear to the arabs if they don't pitch in for real America is going to back Isreals more outlandish land claims and if it was presented by someone with credibility (which rules out anyone in this Administration) and you would see some quick action.

At the same time instead of pouring what is left of our ability to borrow (Bush already squandered what we had) into the shithole that is Iraq, pour it into making this country energy independent so that the Arabs are also faced with losing their hold over the West at the same time facing a nuclear and stronger Israel, not a prospect they look forward too.

Of course Bush just wants to steal as much off the sinking boat that is America so they can invest it overseas before the bubble bursts.  I mean they have done more to strengthen Iran and Al Queda as well as China that those countries could ever have hoped for, one would think Americans would start to wonder why...



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 2:40:54 PM)

According to this site Washington-report.org, direct US aid to Israel since 1949 is 108 billion.

That doesn't include subsidies, soft loans and selling military equipement on the cheap and all the other support. Just a cursory look and you will find that the real support US has given to Israel is far higher but if I give a figure and it is a dollar out you will be pointing a finger and saying wrong wrong wrong! So there is little incentive to play your silly game because you lost a major point on some figures last night.

Sometimes you just put a foot in your mouth, get over it.



pollux -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 2:55:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

According to this site Washington-report.org, direct US aid to Israel since 1949 is 108 billion.


And 108 divided by 57 is what?

quote:

That doesn't include subsidies, soft loans and selling military equipement on the cheap and all the other support. Just a cursory look and you will find that the real support US has given to Israel is far higher but if I give a figure and it is a dollar out you will be pointing a finger and saying wrong wrong wrong! So there is little incentive to play your silly game because you lost a major point on some figures last night.


I did?

My point in harping on this is not to win some kind of contest of egos (although it looks like that, I'm sure).  If I was wrong (or am wrong), I'll happily admit it.  You haven't shown that I was wrong, and your "AMERICAN" website doesn't show what you claim it shows.  I looked at the figures and I did the math.  I had last night and today off, so I had the time.

The point is this: the Israeli-Palestinian issue is pretty heated.  No one is served by exaggerating or deliberately misleading people. 

Claims that the Israelis are bulldozing over homes with families inside and claims that Israel receives more than 3 times the aid that Egypt does are factually wrong.  Your side of the argument has value on its own factual merits.  Stick to facts and don't exaggerate.  We'll all be better off.



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 3:04:21 PM)

I didn't claim anything about people being bulldozed in their homes. I responded that I remember one instance that hit the news. If I mentioned that episode first I would have found the reports first.



maybemaybenot -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 3:35:35 PM)

meatcleaver and julia:

I have been racking my brains out on the bulldozing of Palestinians by Israelis. And something came to mind:

Could you both perhaps have your facts a little mixed up and you are referring to Rachel Corrie, the American Peace Activist?

I'm wondering if the in the heat of the arguement you may have been recalling her story.

                         mbmbn

edited to add: Rachel Corrie was bulldozed in Gaza  < I believe > and was bulldozed to death by an Israeli Soldier. There has always been much controversy in this case and it was pretty big news.



juliaoceania -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 3:58:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You can give any information and by omission or by including irrelevant facts skew the interpretation of the actual facts at hand


Kind of like this business about Israel bulldozing homes with the families still inside?  And meatcleaver claiming that Israel receives three times the amount of US aid that Egypt does?




I have heard of families being bulldozed on NPR, I do not know where meatcleaver heard of it, but it has happened. It happened when Sharon was still in the military and under his command according to Democracy Now.

I would prefer you address the link I put up to prove the points I have made, and not some other person's whom I do not really know. I posted a link from the Library of Congress about the issue dealing with the congressional record, not a propaganda site



juliaoceania -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 4:00:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

meatcleaver and julia:

I have been racking my brains out on the bulldozing of Palestinians by Israelis. And something came to mind:

Could you both perhaps have your facts a little mixed up and you are referring to Rachel Corrie, the American Peace Activist?

I'm wondering if the in the heat of the arguement you may have been recalling her story.

                        mbmbn

edited to add: Rachel Corrie was bulldozed in Gaza  < I believe > and was bulldozed to death by an Israeli Soldier. There has always been much controversy in this case and it was pretty big news.


Im very familiar with Corrie, I am talking about something else though. I am talking about when Sharon was in the miliary, this is not recent.



pollux -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 4:13:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have heard of families being bulldozed on NPR, I do not know where meatcleaver heard of it, but it has happened. It happened when Sharon was still in the military and under his command according to Democracy Now.


Strange that all evidence of this alleged bulldozing seems to have vanished.  By the way, I did a brief (admittedly non-exhaustive) search at NPR.org and found nothing about any families being bulldozed.  This included stories as far back as 1996.  Maybe the story you're talking about was prior to that time.  No matter how you slice it, it seems pretty hard to make the case that Israel has a policy of bulldozing families, if it has in fact happened even a single time.

quote:

I would prefer you address the link I put up to prove the points I have made, and not some other person's whom I do not really know. I posted a link from the Library of Congress about the issue dealing with the congressional record, not a propaganda site


I did, here.  Maybe you missed it.



juliaoceania -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 4:25:27 PM)

Those were forgiven loans, but I may have to email a professor to get more actual information I guess, but then again I am thinking I should not bother...You have made your mind up about this topic, and spending billions of my tax dollars on Israel is not a problem for you obviously. The population of Israel is significantly smaller than Egypt, so my point is that we spend a lot of money per Israeli has never been addressed, not to mention the standard of living for Israelis is very high, why give them welfare, they are not poor and starving are they? Actually they have equal or better standard of living than most Americans that pay their way.

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

The price per Israel is down a couple of grand since 2003 when I had that class.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.htm
Here is another link
http://digital.library.unt.edu/govdocs/crs//data/2006/upl-meta-crs-8124/RL33222_2006Jan05.pdf



pollux -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 4:38:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Those were forgiven loans,


Funny, the report didn't mention that.

quote:

but I may have to email a professor to get more actual information I guess, but then again I am thinking I should not bother...You have made your mind up about this topic, and spending billions of my tax dollars on Israel is not a problem for you obviously.


They're not your billions.  You contribute a tiny fraction of that amount.  And the government spends money on things all of us don't like.  We don't get an individual line item veto on federal spending.  Tough titties.  That's life in a republic.

quote:

The population of Israel is significantly smaller than Egypt, so my point is that we spend a lot of money per Israeli has never been addressed, not to mention the standard of living for Israelis is very high, why give them welfare, they are not poor and starving are they? Actually they have equal or better standard of living than most Americans that pay their way.

http://www.washington-report.org/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm


That's the link that meatcleaver posted that you said was from a propaganda site, that you preferred I not address.  FWIW.  I addressed it anyway.  It quotes the same $2.8B figure I've been using the whole time.  The remaining figures on that page are unsourced and the calculations used to derive them are unexplained.

quote:

The price per Israel is down a couple of grand since 2003 when I had that class.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.htm
Here is another link


You are missing my point completely.

It is perfectly acceptable to argue that Israel receives too much money from the US.  You can argue that point all day and all night.  It is NOT acceptable to say that Israel receives more than 3 times the amount that Egypt does.  That's factually wrong.



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 5:13:20 PM)

That $2.8 billion was direct aid. From what I understand is that there are billions in soft loans and cheap military hardware and Israel was not able to go nuclear without help. It would be naive to simply say that figure is all there is and nothing else. Israel couldn't sustain its current military on its own GDP. Its military is as big and sophisticated as countrys 10 times its size in population and and GDP.



UtopianRanger -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 6:55:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

That $2.8 billion was direct aid. From what I understand is that there are billions in soft loans and cheap military hardware and Israel was not able to go nuclear without help. It would be naive to simply say that figure is all there is and nothing else. Israel couldn't sustain its current military on its own GDP. Its military is as big and sophisticated as countrys 10 times its size in population and and GDP.


I think you and Pollux oughta get together and arm wrestle. ; }



 - R



Lilmissbossy -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 9:04:18 PM)

What does it MATTER if someone from either side of the argument gets one or two figures wrong so long as the general point is valid, we're not all members of the World Council of Factual Accuracy.

This is turning into Google snobbery.



CrappyDom -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 11:54:50 PM)

Tail,

Not true, the minute they suck their last drop of oil from the ground, we are all going to forget about that shithole.

Imagine if Raygun hadn't gutted Carter's visionary plan to make America energy independent, we would be free already....but nope Republicans knew better...oil would always be cheap...



Estring -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/20/2006 11:58:45 PM)

If we are there because of oil, how do you explain our support of Israel? How much oil do they give us?



Lilmissbossy -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/21/2006 12:04:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

If we are there because of oil, how do you explain our support of Israel? How much oil do they give us?


Tell me this wasn't a serious question.................



Estring -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/21/2006 12:05:47 AM)

Strange that all evidence of this alleged bulldozing seems to have vanished.  By the way, I did a brief (admittedly non-exhaustive) search at NPR.org and found nothing about any families being bulldozed.  This included stories as far back as 1996.  Maybe the story you're talking about was prior to that time.  No matter how you slice it, it seems pretty hard to make the case that Israel has a policy of bulldozing families, if it has in fact happened even a single time
 
What the Left does is repeat a lie enough times so that they really believe it. Just like the lie that President Bush stole the last two elections, or that the overwhelming majority of deaths in Katrina were black, or that President bush lied about WMDs. This story of Israel purposely bulldozing people is a lie. No matter how many times you repeat it.



Estring -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/21/2006 12:09:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

If we are there because of oil, how do you explain our support of Israel? How much oil do they give us?


Tell me this wasn't a serious question.................



Why wouldn't that be a serious question? All I hear is we are in The Middle East because of oil. If that was the case, why are we supporting a country that has none? Maybe because it is a Democracy? The only one there in case you didn't know.



meatcleaver -> RE: More about Israel and the Arab nations (7/21/2006 12:29:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring

If we are there because of oil, how do you explain our support of Israel? How much oil do they give us?


This is a religious thing. Just look at what the religious right say. Bible, prophecies, that sort of thing. Israeli has a very powerful lobby group in the US too. It also has strategic importance for the US in the middleeast because it is the only allie you can really rely on. Israel is not known as the USS Israel for nothing.




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