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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/26/2006 12:12:23 AM

EnglishDomNW

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If I read it correctly, your first post said

The mark of a truly civilised society is freedom of speech with limits. How can blatant disrespect of another culture/race be civilised and allowed to go unchecked?

Level responded to that by saying "Several people here on CM post things offensive about America; if we went by what you said, they would not have the right to do so."

Which I thought was a perfectly legitimate point. You can't legislate against one targetted section and not another simply to fit a personal political view.

Within 2 more posts you ended up saying
Level, look, we're really not on the same wavelength. No point continuing this.

Which is almost identical to what you did to me a few posts up.

I don't know what you're trying to achieve since when someone opposes your opinion you simply refuse to debate anymore. You can hardly just expect people to nod and agree with what you say, they're going to challenge it to see if it stands up to scrutiny.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/26/2006 12:33:22 AM

NorthernGent

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English,

Put simply:

1) There is no point debating with people who don't grasp what is central to your argument. I have been trying for 11 pages and I am still being asked why I "don't condemn the violence". When I have said countless times, in my opinion, this is merely an event in a chain of events and doesn't deserve the status of most over-riding issue - and I have laid out the reasons. There's no point banging my head against a brick wall.

It appears that this is one area where we fundamentally disagree. In your own words "the violence is the most over-riding issue and the first and foremost point". For reasons I have laid out I see the reaction in the Muslim community as merely a cog in a complex chain of events.

2) I don't know what you're trying to achieve since when someone opposes your opinion you simply refuse to debate anymore. You can hardly just expect people to nod and agree with what you say, they're going to challenge it to see if it stands up to scrutiny.

Again, you've misunderstood what I'm saying. The reason I am bowing out is not because people are disagreeing with me - it is because, in the words of another poster, people are refusing to contemplate what is being put before them and for reasons known to them they're arguing against things they think I'm saying e.g. that somehow I advocate violence. What is the point in defending a position you are not even taking? It's a pointless exercise.

To be honest, English, this is not really a debate or a discussion. It is an exercise in picking at the scraps of what someone is saying and turning it into something it is not in order to present the impression that a person has a coherent argument to use in a debate.

NorthernGent

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Post #: 222

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/26/2006 2:16:49 AM

Alumbrado

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Nonsense...I haven't asked why you don't condemn the violence, and you are twisting what I did say into something else, and then refusing to discuss it.

To do that, and then claim that there is no use in continuing because others are doing it when clearly some of them are not, is unproductive at best.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/26/2006 2:30:36 AM

EnglishDomNW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

English,
It appears that this is one area where we fundamentally disagree. In your own words "the violence is the most over-riding issue and the first and foremost point".

Which I stand by totally.

quote:

For reasons I have laid out I see the reaction in the Muslim community as merely a cog in a complex chain of events.

2) I don't know what you're trying to achieve since when someone opposes your opinion you simply refuse to debate anymore. You can hardly just expect people to nod and agree with what you say, they're going to challenge it to see if it stands up to scrutiny.

Again, you've misunderstood what I'm saying.

That often seems to happen to you when you post, I'm not sure if it's your fault or mine.

quote:

The reason I am bowing out is not because people are disagreeing with me - it is because, in the words of another poster, people are refusing to contemplate what is being put before them

People are not only contemplating it, they're agreeing/disagree/debating with it.

quote:

and for reasons known to them they're arguing against things they think I'm saying e.g. that somehow I advocate violence. What is the point in defending a position you are not even taking? It's a pointless exercise.

See, this is why I said to you "Why not lay out, right here, exactly what your position is". Instead you just say "I've already stated it" and people have to go hunting to remind themselves what it is. If people pick you up wrong, lay out your opinions right here so they can't do it again. At least, that's what I did and if people disagree with it, let them say so.

quote:

To be honest, English, this is not really a debate or a discussion.

It is an exercise in picking at the scraps of what someone is saying and turning it into something it is not in order to present the impression that a person has a coherent argument to use in a debate.

And what's stopping you from saying "You're wrong. THIS is my position?

People could be forgiven for thinking your definition of a debate is "agree with me or I'll stop posting".

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/26/2006 2:35:00 AM >

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Post #: 224

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/26/2006 5:23:17 AM

NorthernGent

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English,

I have laid out my position for 11 pages. Just because you believe I should do it again shouldn't lead you to believe I will jump to it. If you want to understand my position then read my posts.

If people misconstrue what I am saying then that is their problem. For example, if, as you have done without basis, you assume that I advocate violence, then that is something for you to resolve not for me to do it for you. Note the phrase "without basis".

A perfect example of how this discussion has gone can be seen in your post at the top of this page. I previously directed you to two of my posts - my first one with my condensed opinion on the issue and another one clearly stating what I believe are the two central issues are. Your reply at the top of this page was to ignore the content of my posts and instead concentrate your efforts into coming up with an opinion (not backed up by anything I have said) on why I am choosing to bow out of this discussion with you and Level.

You see, this is not debate - it's picking at the scraps. I have given you a whole series of issues to get your teeth into such as the complexity of dynamics in society that underpin events, what constitutes bigotry, the parallels with European Jews, the extent to which bigoted journalism can cause divisions in society, the ability to prevent a chain of events by stamping out it's catalyst, the reason why society needs laws to enable us to co-exist in peace and many more. If you wish to contemplate these then I'm all for a discussion but if you wish to ignore this content and come back with something like "why don't you denounce violence" or "what is stopping you from saying you're wrong" or "I don't know what you're trying to achieve" then forget it as I won't be replying to what doesn't really deserve a reply. If on the otherhand you stick to the content of the issues then I'm happy to continue.

NorthernGent

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/26/2006 5:25:24 AM

NorthernGent

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Alumbrado,

My post wasn't aimed at you. No apologies required.

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RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/26/2006 6:54:49 AM

EnglishDomNW

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On page 7 of this very topic, I posted this.

"Anyway, since everyone seems to agree that the cartoons were unnecessary, inflammatory and stupid and that the violent response to them was (at least) the same, the entire debate seems to be exhausted. NorthernGent, excuse my rudeness, if you had a different point about freedom of speech you wanted to make, go right ahead. "

Giving you the perfect platform to express any point you wished to make, which seems to be what you're currently complaining about.

When you made your point, I challenged it.

You didn't even have the courtesy to respond.

This thread is fast becoming "How to keep NorthernGent happy".

If you have a point, make it, respond when someone challenges you on it, or exercise your stated right to bow out.

.

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/26/2006 7:09:57 AM >

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Post #: 227

RE: Freedom of Expression - 7/26/2006 10:57:49 AM

NorthernGent

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Iron Bear,

Your quote:

Of course I'm just one of these blokes who tend to believe that I have the right to express myself as I see fit. However I also believe tht in doing so I should be sesitive to other's beliefs in the way I express myself and also elieve that what I way or do is my responsibility. In short, I'll not allow others to dictate what I can and can not do. However I will listen to reasoned arguments and thus say what I feel or believe in after making reasonable attempts not to offend others.... As in most things I'm happy to agree to disagree for in many cases both I and my opposition are being true to our beliefs and thus are both right from our perspectives..

I agree entirely with that. However, you seem to be a reasonable person with a reasonable outlook on life and can be trusted to use your actions/words with respect - I would imagine you are very unlikely to deliberately want to stir up tension between groups of people. You do have 'the right to express yourself as you see fit' providing the right is not abused with bigotry and incitement.

The question is should this right be afforded to people who can't use it with respect and allow their own personal xenophobia to dictate their actions/words? Particularly as we know from history the potential consequences.

NorthernGent

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Post #: 228