quote:

I voted leave and make no apologies for doing so. Whatever you feel you overlook one valid point, in a true democracy you cant keep voting until you get the vote you want. Even people as far left as Diane Abbott are saying that, so are most MPs who voted to remain.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

I voted leave and make no apologies for doing so. Whatever you feel you overlook one valid point, in a true democracy you cant keep voting until you get the vote you want. Even people as far left as Diane Abbott are saying that, so are most MPs who voted to remain.

Bollocks, PS.

Firstly, in a "true democracy", the people rule. That's what the term 'democracy' means. Voting is just one, rough and full-of-flaws, way of arriving at 'what the people want'. There's no necessary relationship between voting and democracy at all - the first is just a means towards the second, which is the end. And a true democracy is *not* one in which just over half get to have everything they want, while ignoring what just under the other half want. 'The people' here describes just under half of the UK's population, as well as the opposing, just over a half. A true democracy would reflect that and if it fails to do so, it would absolutely not be a true democracy.

Secondly, as you well know, and have always fully supported: we don't live in a true democracy here in the UK. We live in a representative, monarchist democracy, with the Queen as the overarching, entirely *undemocratic* titular ruler - that very Queen who you've always vigorously supported. You don't get to demand that we all stick to the purest of pure democratic principles just when it suits you.

Thirdly, yes we do indeed get to vote in a second referendum, should we choose to do so. This may well happen. This is sensible because people change their minds, given new knowledge. We don't have a written constitution here - and this is one of the plus sides of that: we don't have to stick to a carved-in-the-stone principle made by people who were innocent and ignorant of later events.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

just to cut through the stuff that, while not unimportant, is really superficial to what I see as underlying---

isn't the brexit vote more or less an example of the tension that exists between the collectivists and the conservative/libertarian types, writ large?

quote:

One of the common laments of leftist commentators in Europe and America concerning Brexit is that holding referendums is a bad idea.

The most frequently expressed example is the contempt in which the left holds British Prime Minister David Cameron for having suggested the referendum in the first place.

But why would the left hate referendums? Doesn't it claim to represent "the people"? Isn't "power to the people" one of the most popular sayings of the left? Isn't the American left trying to abolish the Electoral College precisely because it isn't directly representative of "the people's" will?

One would imagine, therefore, that if anyone would welcome referendums it would be the left.
So, what gives?

The answers explain a great deal about the left.

First, the left cares about "the people" as much as the Soviet Communist Party cared about the workers. For the left, real people are either political fodder or, when they support the left, useful idiots.
The left loves power, not people.

Repeat: The left loves power, not people.

If that is not understood, the left is not understood.

The European Union is a perfect example. It is a left-wing exercise in controlling people -- in this case, entire nations. That great source of societal damage -- the faceless and nameless bureaucrat, in this instance located in Brussels, Belgium -- seeks to control as much of every individual European's life as possible. There is no limit to the number and extent of rules the EU passes.

To the left nations are archaic constructs, impediments to the left-wing ideal of a world without national identities. This utopia, governed ultimately by a worldwide Brussels -- the United Nations or something like it -- will be run by a secular totalitarian clergy consisting of left-wing parties; left-wing intellectuals in academia and the media; big corporations vying for government subsidies; and big labor, whose leaders embody the love of power. Fellow travelers include environmentalist and feminist organizations and the religious Left (to the extent that organized Western religion will exist in a left-wing-run world).

Since its beginning, the major, if not only interest the left has had in people is to control them.

That is the reason for the left's fear and loathing of referendums. Every referendum gives people who are not yet controlled by the left the exceedingly rare opportunity to exercise power.

That is what the people of California did when they voted to amend their state's constitution to define marriage as the union of one man and one woman. The left loathed the proposal, characterizing it as "hate." And after it was passed the left did what it always does when it can: used judges to overturn the popular will.

The British nation did last week what the citizens of California had done. They exercised their will independently of the left. Those British whose minds were not yet influenced by the left said that they would rather have Britain stay British and be self-governing than become an identity-free European country governed by Brussels.

Thus, the left is now apoplectic. No one should be able to defy the left and get away with it...

Brexit represents a ray of optimism. But in the long run, even referendums may not matter. As long as the left controls education and the news and entertainment media, brainwashed populations will vote to destroy their nations and Western civilization in general, as is already happening in the institution most controlled by the left: the university.

In the meantime, long live the referendum, the last remaining tool for the non-elites and the non-leftists to express themselves.

quote:


Total nonsense. The Queen is, as I have always spouted, a figurehead, a toothless tiger if you wish. The Government, voted in by the electorate hold the keys of power.

quote:


Your point about a second referendum is invalid, given on those on the losing side are shouting for one. The majority voted leave.

quote:

I will bet my worthless pound that those who voted remain would not be shouting for a scond referendum if they had won, not in a million fucking years.

quote:


I love your use of the word "WE" in "If we chose to do so" we didnt chose to do so, we voted out, no politician will have the balls to stand against the will of the people, especially in areas that voted Leave. Is this the Royal "WE" you are on about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome
We haven't taken power away from an elite. We have simply more firmly entrenched an even more offensive elite, hell bent on destroying the consensus in our communities and dismantling our social protections.

Whatever laws the EU gave us, we can keep if we like them.
Those we don't want we can throw away or change.
Leaving the EU doesn't destroy anything except being ruled by unelected beaurocrats that we can't get rid of.

And in case you hadn't noticed, it was put to the vote and the concensus was to leave.
If you don't like the popular result, perhaps you should consider emigrating to somewhere else, giving up your British heritage/nationality and adopting another country.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

And where does any of those links says it is "all because of treacherous foreigners"??
All I see is pretty standard market forces behaving in any sort of uncertainty.
This was forecast well before the vote took place - it was a given.

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

FR~

I'm going to poke my oar in here with something that many 'remainers' won't like.

It is apparent that LC lives in a snobby area where racism is rife.
It's not like that where I am.

LC is extremely Pro-EU.
I guess that comes from her heritage/background that isn't British.
I am a true Brit. More exactly, I consider myself to be English; not even British and deffo not European.

As for immigration?
Ask yourself this: Why do the immigrants refuse to register in Greece or Italy or Bulgaria or Croatia or even France or Spain?
And what's more, to break the laws to crash through borders in an attempto to reach only certain countries - the UK being one of them.
It's because they want the particular society/culture they have chosen to want to live in to the exclusion of all else.
I don't blame them for wanting it (in an ideal world), but why break the law - a fundamental EU law??
To my mind, every single one of them who broke the law and fought with the authorities/police should be deported immediately without further consideration.

Now let's take that a step further....
So they want to live in the UK? A very noble and good choice.
They want the ENGLISH culture and society we live in (disregarding the benefits and free healthcare we offer).
But, if it gets to the point where the culture of certain areas are no longer English, would they still choose to come here?
In many respects, I think not; it's not what they chose.

Now the nasty bit that'll get me slammed and lambasted.
Look at Boston and South Holland districts (Lincolnshire) and around Peterborough.
They voted by more than 75% to leave.
From various interviews with the locals, it wasn't because of the EU but because the fact that the high number of immigrants have completely changed the character and culture of the whole area.

I used to live in a small village just outside of Boston - a lovely English market town (or was).
These days, if it wasn't for the English signs and buildings, you'd think you were in some part of Poland.
You dont hear English being spoken much - it's either Polish or Bulgarian for the most part.
I don't decry those who came here to work - big kudos to them for finding it and working hard.
But they should really learn to 'integrate' into the local culture and society rather than create a mini version of their homeland.
And before someone berates me for picking on the Polish, my best mate is Polish. He came here about 8 years ago with nothing and speaking no English. He's worked 2 jobs, learnt to speak fluent English, bought his own house and lives the English way of life.
This is what all immigrants should do when they choose to live in a different country - fit in!!

Multiculturism?? PFFFFTTTTT!!! I don't believe in it. I think it is suffocating England and its culture.
I want England to remain English; English culture, English customs, English language yada yada yada... the whole nine yards.
After all, that's why so many migrants want to come to England isn't it??
At least that's what my local foreigners are telling me around here - they wanted the UK because it was the UK (not France/Spain etc).
If I want Polish culture - I go to Poland and live there.
If I want French or Spanish culture - that's where I go.
If I wanted an Islamic way of life, I'd relocate to an Islamic country.

I know it sounds very much BNP/EDL (who I don't agree with btw) but why can't we keep England... quintessentially English??
Is that really too much to ask?


ETA: And why can't we fly the Union Jack or the English (or Welsh/Irish/Scottish) flags with pride like everywhere else in the world instead of being told to remove them 'in case it upsets the migrants'?
Really?? Fuck Off!! This is England, not Pakistan or India or wherever you came from.
I am proud to be English and I should be able to be proud of my country's flag.
Don't like it?? Go back home and fly your own fucking flag!

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent1

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

I'm sorry that you can't understand English, but then as the typical lager lout, football hooligan, I wouldn't expect brains from the likes of you anyway.

Difficult to understand that some guy punched me in the face and cracked my cheekbone for wearing a remain button? Yeah I can see how an IQ below room temperature would have problems with that.

The rise in racism everywhere post Brexit, also escaped you. Guess you've been studying your navel a lot.

Now I help you to fuck off by pressing the ignore button. Maybe the local butcher can sell you a bit of brain.

I'll be honest. I couldn't give the first fuck that you got a crack off someone. Were you going on like this by any chance?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Article 50 can be invoked in a number of different ways.

Cockroach has stated that he is not going to be the one to press that button and insists it will be up to the new PM to do that.
In theory, that will be by 2nd September although rumours are going around that they want to delay that until 9th.

As for the EU laws, however complex thay appear to be, the committee/group organising the leave conditions are gonna have to speed-read most of them and sift the wheat from the chaff in very short order.

There are only two ways Article 50 can be invoked, either in a speech or in a letter, and only the PM can do that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

Article 50 can be invoked in a number of different ways.

Cockroach has stated that he is not going to be the one to press that button and insists it will be up to the new PM to do that.
In theory, that will be by 2nd September although rumours are going around that they want to delay that until 9th.

As for the EU laws, however complex thay appear to be, the committee/group organising the leave conditions are gonna have to speed-read most of them and sift the wheat from the chaff in very short order.

There are only two ways Article 50 can be invoked, either in a speech or in a letter, and only the PM can do that.

This is a key point. Cameron has resigned and left the decision to invoke Art. 50 to his successor. At this point, it is far from clear that his successor will decide to invoke Art. 50. It might turn out to be the case that an election is called over this very issue. Oddly enough, the EU seems far keener to expedite matters than any one in the UK.

However at the moment, 'Who is going to invoke Art 50?' and 'When?' are very open questions and I see no one rushing to do it. Quite the opposite - it appears that most potential invokers (if you will pardon that clumsy construction) would prefer to duck this question at the moment. It seems to have 'political kiss of death' written all over it.

So invoking Art. 50 might never happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: longwayhome


Wow.

Just wow.

Let's just be clear not everyone who voted leave did so because they were anti-immigrant or racist, but lots of people seem to think that telling people to get out is okay since we had the vote.

Oh and a perfectly decent MP was shot and killed during the campaign.

There are perfectly good arguments on both sides of the debate here. But let's not pretend that there hasn't also been some pretty ugly racism. Maybe I'm just a dreamy eyed idealist but I would hope that most decent people on both sides would condemn that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

just to cut through the stuff that, while not unimportant, is really superficial to what I see as underlying---

isn't the brexit vote more or less an example of the tension that exists between the collectivists and the conservative/libertarian types, writ large?

"Why the Left Hates Referendums"

quote:

One of the common laments of leftist commentators in Europe and America concerning Brexit is that holding referendums is a bad idea.

The most frequently expressed example is the contempt in which the left holds British Prime Minister David Cameron for having suggested the referendum in the first place.

But why would the left hate referendums? Doesn't it claim to represent "the people"? Isn't "power to the people" one of the most popular sayings of the left? Isn't the American left trying to abolish the Electoral College precisely because it isn't directly representative of "the people's" will?

One would imagine, therefore, that if anyone would welcome referendums it would be the left.
So, what gives?

The answers explain a great deal about the left.

First, the left cares about "the people" as much as the Soviet Communist Party cared about the workers. For the left, real people are either political fodder or, when they support the left, useful idiots.
The left loves power, not people.

Repeat: The left loves power, not people.

If that is not understood, the left is not understood.

The European Union is a perfect example. It is a left-wing exercise in controlling people -- in this case, entire nations. That great source of societal damage -- the faceless and nameless bureaucrat, in this instance located in Brussels, Belgium -- seeks to control as much of every individual European's life as possible. There is no limit to the number and extent of rules the EU passes.

To the left nations are archaic constructs, impediments to the left-wing ideal of a world without national identities. This utopia, governed ultimately by a worldwide Brussels -- the United Nations or something like it -- will be run by a secular totalitarian clergy consisting of left-wing parties; left-wing intellectuals in academia and the media; big corporations vying for government subsidies; and big labor, whose leaders embody the love of power. Fellow travelers include environmentalist and feminist organizations and the religious Left (to the extent that organized Western religion will exist in a left-wing-run world).

Since its beginning, the major, if not only interest the left has had in people is to control them.

That is the reason for the left's fear and loathing of referendums. Every referendum gives people who are not yet controlled by the left the exceedingly rare opportunity to exercise power.

That is what the people of California did when they voted to amend their state's constitution to define marriage as the union of one man and one woman. The left loathed the proposal, characterizing it as "hate." And after it was passed the left did what it always does when it can: used judges to overturn the popular will.

The British nation did last week what the citizens of California had done. They exercised their will independently of the left. Those British whose minds were not yet influenced by the left said that they would rather have Britain stay British and be self-governing than become an identity-free European country governed by Brussels.

Thus, the left is now apoplectic. No one should be able to defy the left and get away with it...

Brexit represents a ray of optimism. But in the long run, even referendums may not matter. As long as the left controls education and the news and entertainment media, brainwashed populations will vote to destroy their nations and Western civilization in general, as is already happening in the institution most controlled by the left: the university.

In the meantime, long live the referendum, the last remaining tool for the non-elites and the non-leftists to express themselves.

http://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2016/06/28/why-the-left-hates-referendums-n2184036

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

FR......

I have only replied to a few posts, as I was ten pages behind in this debate. That said here are a few facts.

1) Not all those who voted leave are racist, some were but must were not, there are no 17 million racists in the UK. While I am at it, the far right is on the rise in greater numers right across the EU, more so than in the UK.

2) Not all those who voted out were uninformed or stupid. Stupid and uninformed people also voted to remain.

3) Surgeon only got 60 % of the vote in Scotland, is she willing to risk leaving her biggest trading partner ?

4) Most EU countries trade with the UK, especially germany and France, are they going to risk their own jobs market and economies by not doing a sensible deal with the UK ?

5) Will France and Germany risk the above as they have general elections taking place within two years, the period we have before we must leave once talks start. Lets not forget France and others have already voted to leave once.

6) Financial markets thrive in turmoil, much of what you see is greedy bankers hedging bets. Soros is a master of this type of trading.

7) No one in Europe, either in the UK or outside of it whish to see financial turmoil, you can bet a solution accepatble to all will be found.

8) The whole EU project as it now stands is dead in the water, ever closer Union should be halted and major structural changes need to take place.

quote:

Watch this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98pJ5ex5vlM

Absolutely fucking stupid people. Room temperature IQs.

quote:

Only recently opdivo for lung cancer and yervoy for skin cancer have been approved for use by the EMA and will be given to NHS patients soon. What are we going to do without the EMA? NICE does not have the resources to properly assess and approve new drug use, and we sure a shit will have trouble keeping drug costs down without EU trade protections (particularly for livestock which actually use about 60% of the worlds antibiotics).