RE: Dispositional Dissonance (Full Version)

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ManOeuvre -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/12/2016 4:29:52 PM)

LadyPact,

I don't know that there is an issue here. I am not a proponent of TPE, irrevocable or otherwise, and I am not here advocating for its merits or acceptance. There is a lot of space between being comfortable with something and being a proponent of it.

I have asked myself questions, for the sake of resolving my internal conflicts. A brief, partial synopsis of how I have come to be comfortable with these ideas in my head is archived in the final five paragraphs of the fifth post of this thread. Beware, it involves mathematics and Margaret Atwood.



LadyPact -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/12/2016 4:58:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
This must be why old-school BDSM 1-year (renewable) slave contracts were originally designed. For those "Masters" (and "slaves") who just don't get it. [sm=ugh.gif]

Can't go for that, either.

There is a certain contingent of folks who enjoy the formality of putting things down on paper between the parties, even though both know the agreement is 'opt out'. Such contracts are not enforceable past the point that either party wants to be absolved of the agreement because no higher authority has endorsed them.




FieryOpal -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/12/2016 5:40:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
quote:

ORIGINAL: FieryOpal
This must be why old-school BDSM 1-year (renewable) slave contracts were originally designed. For those "Masters" (and "slaves") who just don't get it. [sm=ugh.gif]

Can't go for that, either.

There is a certain contingent of folks who enjoy the formality of putting things down on paper between the parties, even though both know the agreement is 'opt out'. Such contracts are not enforceable past the point that either party wants to be absolved of the agreement because no higher authority has endorsed them.

Oh, I know that it was not and is not the original intent and purpose. Hence the emoti. But it does drive home that consensual slavery was not and is not intended for perpetuity (beyond one's fantasy-fueled imaginings).

On the other hand, you would think that nobody would need to be reminded either that Master/slave contracts are not enforceable, or that none of these pseudo-formalized agreements are binding because they were written down on paper and signed by both parties. [8|]



Awareness -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/13/2016 7:40:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ManOeuvre

What are the philosophical contradictions you hold with respect to BDSM, S/m, M/s, kink, lifestyle, etc? Are there principles that you hold closely in your mind which are antithetical to each other?
I honestly don't think so. While I tend to abhor moral relativism, I reconcile that stance with the reality of shifting social mores and ethics by reasoning them as products of the continuing search for principles which allow our societies to function harmoniously.

quote:


For example, I have a profound love of freedom, and regularly quote the greats, like Locke, Jefferson, Lincoln and Prime, and yet I'm comfortable with irrevocable TPE with genuine captivity.
I'd attribute that to a failure of perspective. There's no such thing as genuine captivity - not in our societies. At best, TPE is role-playing unless you've psychologically eroded someone's capacity for genuine self-determination - and while that's possible, I'd argue that doing so is a potentially fatal ethical failure.

quote:


I consider religious worldview to be at best epistemic failures and at worst celestial dictatorships, and I abhor them, yet I am intensely attracted to the principles and expressions of sartorial modesty practiced for almost entirely religious purposes.
It's fashionable to attack religious people - particularly Christians - however I tend to regard religion as part of people's quest to find meaning in their lives and make peace with their inevitable deaths. The prevalence of religion across cultures speaks of a deep human need which is an intrinsic aspect of our psychology. That it's inevitably bound up with tribalism is unfortunate, however that particular malady taints pretty much everything we do anyway.

quote:


I feel these are not conflicts between any sort of expectations and outcomes, but I may be wrong.

Examples of that sort would be the difference between my expected support for the spirit of BDSM ecumenicalism, YKIOK, etc based on my being on a 'community' site contrasted with the 'one twue wayism' that I practice and express to my more like minded associates.
That seems like a simple conflict between social expectations and personal belief. The 'community' is simply a social arena in which politics plays out as it always does. Due to the over-representation of liberal-leaning individuals (BDSM doesn't seem like a conservative playground) there's a tendency toward the political correctness and censorship of the left which is why there's constant ongoing drama about 'consent violations'. [LP: Before you jump in, I'm not saying they don't happen - I'm saying the volume is completely overblown - as is the "campus rape crisis".]

From that perspective, I think it's critical to establish your own standards because the wisdom of crowds is frequently idiocy - and the shifting mores of the community are a messy invitation to chaos.

quote:


Outside of the BDSM there is of course the being a Canadian who happens to like guns, or being a bicycle rider who owns a pickup truck.

These are just outcomes not lining up with stereotypes and expectations.
Stereotypes exist because they're true - most of the time. They're handy categorisations which people use because our brains are wired to employ shortcuts whenever we can.

quote:


I really think that the first two are conflicts which really exist at a fundamental level in my mind, and while I have some strategies for dealing with them, I'd love to hear first if others have analogous, issues before I share my strategies for putting the two halves of my brain back together.
I think in large part, I tend to vary rarely think of anything as "true". Most of what we believe are models we possess to predict the future. And the true test of any model is its ability to do so.

I'll give you an example. Newtonian laws are a model of physical reality which provides accurate results for the vast majority of cases. You could use them to predict the path of bodies to a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Except for Mercury.

Newtonian laws had no explanation for the orbit of Mercury. It took General Relativity to do that. General Relativity perfectly explains the orbit of Mercury.

So... what does this mean?

It means that Newtonian Laws and General Relativity are separate models of reality. General Relativity is a more accurate model of reality than Newtonian Physics. And it is entirely possible that a newer model of reality will supersede General Relativity at some point.

So nothing is really true. Truth is the province of philosophy and even that's debatable. For everything else, we simply have models of reality. And how good the model actually is can be determined by testing its ability to predict the future.

This applies to social reality as well as physical reality. And despite being highly malleable and extremely subjective, social reality is almost as predictable as physical reality.



ManOeuvre -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/13/2016 12:08:23 PM)

Awareness, FO and LP, please add 'pre-contemplative' to my chart.



LadyPact -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/13/2016 12:16:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
[LP: Before you jump in, I'm not saying they don't happen - I'm saying the volume is completely overblown - as is the "campus rape crisis".]

If a person is going to be considered predictable, at least let it be for the courage of their convictions about speaking to the harm of others, rather than defending the perpetrators of criminal activity.



ManOeuvre -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/13/2016 2:52:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
It's fashionable to attack religious people...


Awareness, please don't think of me as fashionable. I was hoping people would comment on that sentence as a whole. It is the contradiction inherent in my dyspeptic relationship with religion combined with an appreciation, and affectation by proxy, of certain religiously inspired sartorial habits, which makes the idea even remotely interesting.

Otherwise, I'd be happy to dump it into P&R.

Michael (DaddySatyr), thanks, by the way, for reading and responding to the entire sentence. I'm sorry that I didn't reply to your message earlier. Thank you for sharing how in your life this one issue represents a different grain from every other aspect. Thanks also for elaborating on how you make that work for you.

I find a tremendous amount of wisdom in the ultimate paragraph of your post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
That said, I also understand that the world doesn't operate on these principles and to expect it to would be foolhardy, but I can conduct my own affairs, guided by my spiritual beliefs, while balancing the fact that I needn't submit to the crap that the world lays down for me. So, my expectations of certain outcomes aren't clouded by expecting my beliefs to sway others, but how I react to the world around me is guided by those principles.


I observe a parallel, if not similar sentiment coming from an old, dead white guy we both hold in high esteem. TJ's relationship with SH withstanding all the same, some of the quotations inscribed on the third panel at his memorial:

quote:


"The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it. . . ." - Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII

"Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them." - Jefferson's Autobiography


Despite him thinking he was part of a movement towards an unliveable scenario, the stubborn forward trudge seemed animated by a conviction against interest, and he had laid a foundation for a house where he would not be welcome to rest.

His was not the heroic lament, seeing the magic give way and mourning the Titanic and Olympic.

It was the self awareness, rather than a commitment to ethics that made him, and yourself, most relatable and interesting to read.



Awareness -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/14/2016 9:38:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
[LP: Before you jump in, I'm not saying they don't happen - I'm saying the volume is completely overblown - as is the "campus rape crisis".]

If a person is going to be considered predictable, at least let it be for the courage of their convictions about speaking to the harm of others, rather than defending the perpetrators of criminal activity.

I intercepted your response to provide clarity, not demean you. Some people have hot buttons and yours is glaringly obvious - I believe I have a glimmer of understanding about why that is, but in my evaluation this consumes you just a little too much. I can't fault you for it, but I do wish you'd been able to find peace before now.





LadyPact -> RE: Dispositional Dissonance (7/14/2016 11:05:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
I intercepted your response to provide clarity, not demean you. Some people have hot buttons and yours is glaringly obvious - I believe I have a glimmer of understanding about why that is, but in my evaluation this consumes you just a little too much. I can't fault you for it, but I do wish you'd been able to find peace before now.

Sorry for the off topic, folks.

Awareness,

I think you may misunderstand. I was genuinely glad you said it. I do hope people know that I have a certain stance on specific topics, though I probably wouldn't have pinned it as 'rape culture'. I don't have a cute little term for the lack of consent (in play and out) culture, so I just call it the big five.

I'm even cool with you thinking there is less of that going on than I probably do. You have a different perspective. You do things differently than I do and you're not so much a 'community' person, so that distances you from it, somewhat.

It is kind of ironic, though. Recently, you had a thread about guns that asked <paraphrased> "If we know that X number of people are dying, do we have to recognize that we have a problem?" Obviously, the answer is yes, which means we have to figure out how to fix the problem.

Same thing. If we know that we have a significant number of people in our kink communities who are having their consent violated, being outted, stalked, harassed, etc, do we have to recognize that we have a problem? If the answer is yes, we have to figure out how we fix that. That's not emotional. That's logical. I may be more adamant in my belief due to my personal experiences but it doesn't change the basic premise.

As for the good wishes about personal peace, I appreciate it. I'll have it when it's over.




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