For the sake of argument:

For the sake of argument: (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 3:56:20 PM)
Okay, hypothetically speaking, the congress passes an amendment eliminating the 2nd amendment and the required number of states ratify it. Congress then passes laws banning firearm ownership. All legally purchased firearms in the US are then confiscated by law enforcement. Now, would someone please tell me how: 1) you are going to get the guns out of the hands of people who own them illegally 2) you are going to stop guns from entering the states illegally (didnt work so much for booze, remember?) 3) how are you going to stop someone from downloading the information on making guns from the internet (hasnt worked real well for stopping folks from downloading bomb making instructions, a few people arrested for possessing pipe bombs admitted to getting the information on making them from the net.) Which brings me to the point, in countries where guns are illegal, if it is so effective, how are guns being used in crimes? Okay granted not in the numbers as the US, but still, guns are in countries where guns are illegal. Even more to the point, many of these countries have a history of low crime rates to begin with. and finally 4) how in the hell is getting rid of the legal guns going to stop cops from shooting unarmed men of any race, let alone black? Okay, granted number 4, in my opinion is an unrelated problem, but still some in other countries seem to think that it isn't.

thompsonx -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 4:03:15 PM)
ORIGINAL: jlf1961 4) how in the hell is getting rid of the legal guns going to stop cops from shooting unarmed men of any race, let alone black? Hmmmm..... wow that thar is a real puzzler ain't it????Oh wait you said get rid of the legal gun like the ones that cops use to shoot people with...yeah that would work if the cops don't have guns they would definitely have a tougher time shooting people. You may be on to something there young fella.

KenDckey -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 4:32:56 PM)
If they passed a constitutional amendment outlawing guns, then it would be pretty for the Swiss Guard at the Vatican to come and take over the the country. We would also save a ton on not having a military or VA

thompsonx -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 4:36:09 PM)
ORIGINAL: KenDckey If they passed a constitutional amendment outlawing guns, then it would be pretty for the Swiss Guard at the Vatican to come and take over the the country. We would also save a ton on not having a military or VA Why would you disband the military?

thompsonx -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 4:37:08 PM)
ORIGINAL: KenDckey If they passed a constitutional amendment outlawing guns, then it would be pretty for the Swiss Guard at the Vatican to come and take over the the country. We would also save a ton on not having a military or VA How would the swiss guard of the vatican get here?

Dvr22999874 -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 4:47:54 PM)
Just like they ( the Swiss Guard) has taken over all those other countries that banned guns. How are we ever going to stop them ????They'll take over the world !! What a load of bollocks.

thompsonx -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 4:55:44 PM)
ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874 Just like they ( the Swiss Guard) has taken over all those other countries that banned guns. How are we ever going to stop them ????They'll take over the world !! What a load of bollocks. I have heard that they take their guns home with them but I do believe there is about four or five kilos of paperwork to get one out of the country. That might put a little hitch in their invasion plans.

ThatDizzyChick -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 5:27:29 PM)
It's way to late for meaningful gun control in the US.

BamaD -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 5:41:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874 Just like they ( the Swiss Guard) has taken over all those other countries that banned guns. How are we ever going to stop them ????They'll take over the world !! What a load of bollocks. He was saying if not even the Government could have guns.

RottenJohnny -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 5:44:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Okay, hypothetically speaking, the congress passes an amendment eliminating the 2nd amendment and the required number of states ratify it. Congress then passes laws banning firearm ownership. All legally purchased firearms in the US are then confiscated by law enforcement. So, hypothetically speaking, three years later, the sheriff finally gets around to showing up at my house because for some inexplicable reason I (and probably many others) apparently never got the memo that I needed to turn in my guns. I can easily predict how this conversation will go... Sheriff: Knock, knock, knock...Excuse me, sir, our records show you are a previously legal gun owner. Me: That's correct. Sheriff: Well, as you may not be aware, you are required by law to surrender all fireaems immediately. Do you still have posession of any firearms? Me: No, sir. Sheriff: Since our records show you owned firearms but you have not surrendered them, we our legally allowed to search your home to confirm there are no firearms in your posession. Will you agree to let us do so? Me: Certainly, sir. (search conducted - no firearms found) Sheriff: Our records also show that you have never filed a report for any stolen firearms. Me: That's correct. Sheriff: Well then, can you please explain what has happened here? You had firearms. You no longer have them. You didn't turn them in as required. And they weren't stolen. Where are your firearms? Me: I lost them. Sheriff: You lost them? Me: Yes, sir. Sheriff: How did you "lose them"? Me: Well, I can't be sure. Over the years I've made many trips to the local dump. Perhaps I accidentally mixed them in with the garbage and they were thrown away. Sheriff: Do you really expect me to believe that? Me: That's up to you. But I'll be contacting my lawyer tomorrow to make sure he gets a copy of your report that you've conducted a search of my home and found no firearms. Have a nice day. A few days later, I return to my friends house, who has never owned a firearm (legally or otherwise) to retrieve my guns.

MrRodgers -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 5:45:37 PM)
Well I am wondering how the congress could get away with changing the core constitutional requirement for ratification and otherwise wouldn't get the required no. of states to ratify the death of the 2nd amend. I do think your hypothetical dies a quick death jl. None of this would otherwise pass constitutional muster ? As recently as the Heller V DC we know what's up there and even a 4-4 court wouldn't go along with any of this and law enforcement would thus be so instructed. That's why the feds needed to pass presidential martial law capabilities which has yet to be court tested. It is my understanding, that's the only alleged legal vehicle for the confiscation of the peoples' arm which was made optional under that law. Then the govt. runs into Caesar's problem. (you ain't shit without the Army) Would the Army and law enforcement go along ?

Greta75 -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 5:50:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Which brings me to the point, in countries where guns are illegal, if it is so effective, how are guns being used in crimes? Guns are completely illegal in my country, so illegal that gun crimes, any gum crimes, like even using a gun to hold up and commit robbery is death penalty. And we don't have gun crimes. Infact I would encourage the US to instill death penalty for gun crimes too, and I guarantee gun crimes will drop drastically. Especially in a country where it's a right to have a gun, it's even more important to severely punish those who abuse that right and abuse the use of a gun. US has too slack laws. We occasionally have police officers abusing the gun to commit suicide and shoot themselves. But that's about it. They know if they shoot others with it unfairly, it's death penalty to them, the police anyway. Only police and military have guns. But they don't abuse it because their punishment would probably involve losing their life. The problem with many other countries is that, it's not illegal. Guns are still legal for hunting and stuffs. Guns aren't even legal for hunting in my country. So if you want it to work, it means, TOTAL BAN. Nobody gets a gun, period! Except law enforcement.

BamaD -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 5:53:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Which brings me to the point, in countries where guns are illegal, if it is so effective, how are guns being used in crimes? Guns are completely illegal in my country, so illegal that gun crimes, any gum crimes, like even using a gun to hold up and commit robbery is death penalty. And we don't have gun crimes. Infact I would encourage the US to instill death penalty for gun crimes too, and I guarantee gun crimes will drop drastically. We occasionally have police officers abusing the gun to commit suicide and shoot themselves. But that's about it. Only police and military have guns. The problem with many other countries is that, it's not illegal. Guns are still legal for hunting and stuffs. Guns aren't even legal for hunting in my country. So if you want it to work, it means, TOTAL BAN. Nobody gets a gun, period! Except law enforcement. many states here don't have the death penalty period, and in the others it is hard to get death Then there is that little thing called the Constitution.

Greta75 -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 5:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD many states here don't have the death penalty period, and in the others it is hard to get death Then there is that little thing called the Constitution. Republican politicians should really be pushing for increasing punishment for gun crimes, to ensure that guns are used peacefully only. Obviously total ban is never realistic for the US. But surely instilling tougher punishments will be easier! What do people have against punishing people heavily for misusing guns? That way good gun owners can happily keep collecting their guns, while the rogue gun owners, get rid of them! A gun filled country does not need rogue gun owners in their population. I'd just eliminate them.

mnottertail -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 5:58:41 PM)
Lets pretend the sky was green and the earth was square, how many eyes would god have?

jlf1961 -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 6:07:24 PM)
Greta, your country is 277 square miles, all of which is pretty much urbanized. This brings up the question, where the hell would anyone go hunting? Finally, contrary to what you may believe, the death penalty has been proven to NOT be a deterrent to criminal activities. Christ all you have to do is look at Texas and Florida to see the death penalty hasn't stopped many capital crimes. But more to the point, if a person is determined to commit the crime, they already have accepted the cost.

BamaD -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 6:11:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Greta75 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD many states here don't have the death penalty period, and in the others it is hard to get death Then there is that little thing called the Constitution. Republican politicians should really be pushing for increasing punishment for gun crimes, to ensure that guns are used peacefully only. Obviously total ban is never realistic for the US. But surely instilling tougher punishments will be easier! What do people have against punishing people heavily for misusing guns? That way good gun owners can happily keep collecting their guns, while the rogue gun owners, get rid of them! A gun filled country does not need rogue gun owners in their population. I'd just eliminate them. They do, and so does the NRA but that is dismissed as doing nothing and ridiculed as only punishing people after they have committed a crime.

Termyn8or -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 6:54:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jlf1961 Okay, hypothetically speaking, the congress passes an amendment eliminating the 2nd amendment and the required number of states ratify it. Congress then passes laws banning firearm ownership. All legally purchased firearms in the US are then confiscated by law enforcement. Now, would someone please tell me how: 1) you are going to get the guns out of the hands of people who own them illegally 2) you are going to stop guns from entering the states illegally (didnt work so much for booze, remember?) 3) how are you going to stop someone from downloading the information on making guns from the internet (hasnt worked real well for stopping folks from downloading bomb making instructions, a few people arrested for possessing pipe bombs admitted to getting the information on making them from the net.) Which brings me to the point, in countries where guns are illegal, if it is so effective, how are guns being used in crimes? Okay granted not in the numbers as the US, but still, guns are in countries where guns are illegal. Even more to the point, many of these countries have a history of low crime rates to begin with. and finally 4) how in the hell is getting rid of the legal guns going to stop cops from shooting unarmed men of any race, let alone black? Okay, granted number 4, in my opinion is an unrelated problem, but still some in other countries seem to think that it isn't. Bottom line, and you see it, it is simply not practical. And really, though I am against it, most people who get shot by the cops are fucking stupid. Don't they know the cop has a gun and is licensed to kill ? In fact they usually get a two week paid vacation when they shoot one of these Darwin Award winners. I am not saying it is right and I am not saying all of cop shootings are justified and I am not saying that more cops should be prosecuted for some of these shootings, but these people they shoot just don't know that they have a gun ? Or what ? If they are that stupid then kill the motherfuckers before the break down my back door and get blood all over the place. When cops shoot wrongly I think they should be severely punished. When they beat somebody's ass for wrong reasons they should be severely punished. But when they catch some N____ beating up his Wife and kids, I have no problem with cops putting the scumbag into the hospital. But some do it out of hate or bigotry. They can take some lead as far as I am concerned. T^T

thompsonx -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 7:43:00 PM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD He was saying if not even the Government could have guns What part of the second ammendment gives the government any right to guns?

thompsonx -> RE: For the sake of argument: (7/10/2016 7:46:13 PM)
ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny So, hypothetically speaking, three years later, the sheriff finally gets around to showing up at my house because for some inexplicable reason I (and probably many others) apparently never got the memo that I needed to turn in my guns. I can easily predict how this conversation will go... Sheriff: Knock, knock, knock...Excuse me, sir, our records show you are a previously legal gun owner. Me: That's correct. Sheriff: Well, as you may not be aware, you are required by law to surrender all fireaems immediately. Do you still have posession of any firearms? Me: No, sir. Sheriff: Since our records show you owned firearms but you have not surrendered them, we our legally allowed to search your home to confirm there are no firearms in your posession. Will you agree to let us do so? Me: Certainly, sir. (search conducted - no firearms found) Sheriff: Our records also show that you have never filed a report for any stolen firearms. Me: That's correct. Sheriff: Well then, can you please explain what has happened here? You had firearms. You no longer have them. You didn't turn them in as required. And they weren't stolen. Where are your firearms? Me: I lost them. Sheriff: You lost them? Me: Yes, sir. Sheriff: How did you "lose them"? Me: Well, I can't be sure. Over the years I've made many trips to the local dump. Perhaps I accidentally mixed them in with the garbage and they were thrown away. Sheriff: Do you really expect me to believe that? Me: That's up to you. But I'll be contacting my lawyer tomorrow to make sure he gets a copy of your report that you've conducted a search of my home and found no firearms. Have a nice day. A few days later, I return to my friends house, who has never owned a firearm (legally or otherwise) to retrieve my guns. Funny how all you "law and order guys figgure the law applies to someone that is not you.[8\|]

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