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Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 6:12:33 AM   
Greta75


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Status: offline 		Just look at this below.

Why is US taking the heaviest burden?



NATO admits it has an "over-reliance" on the U.S. for the provision of essential capabilities, including intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, air-to-air refueling, ballistic missile defense and airborne electronic warfare.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/08/news/nato-summit-spending-countries/index.html

Trump has the right idea actually. The problem is, he lacks finesse in delivering them.

If all the stronger European countries step up and increase their contribution, US can save alot of money by decreasing their contribution and focus on reducing their debt.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 8/5/2016 6:15:17 AM >
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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 7:15:36 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		Whilst I prefer Trump to war mongering Clinton, what the hell was he thinking.

What Trump said, in an interview published by the New-York-Times is that he wouldn’t necessarily defend the United States’ allies in NATO if they were attacked by a foreign power. This extended, Trump said, to the Baltic countries right on Russia’s border; countries Russia might conceivably invade.

WTF?! The NATO alliance is a promise of protection and he’s just claimed he will break that promise as well as giving Russia a very real message. “If I get in, I’ll fuck up NATO which means you can invade the Baltics without any resistance from us.

Nah. This guy’s going to start world war III


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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 7:48:44 AM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		Some say Turnip is psychologically fractured out with this reality and the next 10 closets guffaws. Others say he is unfit to be president on account of him being fuking mental in the head, and when he opens his mouth arse spraying mayhem immediately ensues.

Others, such as myself – a mere 3 cats mad of the head, believe him to be the deranged consequence of a genetic experiment involving a turnip, long gone with the blight, and billy the half wit goat quarter wit brother, running amok.

Military spending world annually Billion $1700
United States $600 Billion is where I rest my case.

Notes:
China $200 billion
Russia $66 Billion So combined it still less than half of amerinackered

incidentally Saudi Arabia is $98 billion - highest of any nation per capita
UK is $55 billion

And those are the top 5 nations.

Any super power, and there is only one, I know this, there are no others remotely, not even combined. They are gripped with a paranoia, rarely seen in the modern epoch have dismantled regimes, or is it democratic elected governments since the beginning of there very short time on this planet so I am thinking they should pay there fair share and more.





< Message edited by WickedsDesire -- 8/5/2016 7:56:36 AM >

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 7:54:15 AM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		Let us never forget that war, defense and terrorism (security)...are all profit centers.

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 8:04:02 AM   
WickedsDesire


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Status: offline 		Absolutely true MrRodgers

Edited to add to my last post I am of the firm belief no other country should possess the capability for nuclear arms...I think about 7 have them...though some prick will make a gamma ray bomb (energy device) sooner or later as i believe some huwmans to be that deranged - reminds me of Babylon 5 Twilight zone dr who and that futurama where mad professors had the right to bear 5 doomsday weapons or something :)

I always found a far more trickier question how does one police the world and who should etc which has nothing to do with great75 thread so do not side track it

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 8:15:53 AM   
MariaB


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Let us never forget that war, defense and terrorism (security)...are all profit centers.


"perpetual indebtedness of a government is the goal of the international banking system. The banking system needs war.
Dr. Caroll Quigley's Tragedy and Hope

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 9:04:21 AM   
Baldrick


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Status: offline 		What are the sizes of the military of the NATO nations compared to the US? Canada's entire military is smaller than the Marine Corps

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 9:09:46 AM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Just look at this below.

Why is US taking the heaviest burden?



NATO admits it has an "over-reliance" on the U.S. for the provision of essential capabilities, including intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, air-to-air refueling, ballistic missile defense and airborne electronic warfare.

http://money.cnn.com/2016/07/08/news/nato-summit-spending-countries/index.html

Trump has the right idea actually. The problem is, he lacks finesse in delivering them.

If all the stronger European countries step up and increase their contribution, US can save alot of money by decreasing their contribution and focus on reducing their debt.
The USA has no problem spending money on the continuation of US hegemony around the world. This is chickenfeed and if Trump knew a damn thing about geopolitics, he'd understand why the US spends the money it does.


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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 12:55:35 PM   
BamaD


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baldrick

What are the sizes of the military of the NATO nations compared to the US? Canada's entire military is smaller than the Marine Corps

And Trump is saying that Nato needs to provide more toward their own defense, this would allow us to spend less.

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 1:08:43 PM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Whilst I prefer Trump to war mongering Clinton, what the hell was he thinking.

What Trump said, in an interview published by the New-York-Times is that he wouldn’t necessarily defend the United States’ allies in NATO if they were attacked by a foreign power. This extended, Trump said, to the Baltic countries right on Russia’s border; countries Russia might conceivably invade.

WTF?! The NATO alliance is a promise of protection and he’s just claimed he will break that promise as well as giving Russia a very real message. “If I get in, I’ll fuck up NATO which means you can invade the Baltics without any resistance from us.

Nah. This guy’s going to start world war III



That is alot of assumption.

T^T

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 1:35:37 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baldrick

What are the sizes of the military of the NATO nations compared to the US? Canada's entire military is smaller than the Marine Corps

And Trump is saying that Nato needs to provide more toward their own defense, this would allow us to spend less.

We put about 44 billion in there (our share 22% next largest is around 15% or so) say we drop by 10 billion, so we could slash our military spending to 591 billion still more than the next 7 countries combined, no wonder nutsuckers have run us into a 19 trillion dollar debt..........

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/5/2016 1:36:10 PM >

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 5:54:48 PM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Whilst I prefer Trump to war mongering Clinton, what the hell was he thinking.

What Trump said, in an interview published by the New-York-Times is that he wouldn’t necessarily defend the United States’ allies in NATO if they were attacked by a foreign power. This extended, Trump said, to the Baltic countries right on Russia’s border; countries Russia might conceivably invade.

WTF?! The NATO alliance is a promise of protection and he’s just claimed he will break that promise as well as giving Russia a very real message. “If I get in, I’ll fuck up NATO which means you can invade the Baltics without any resistance from us.

Nah. This guy’s going to start world war III



Absolutely.

Trump unfortunately has done exactly what you said. He has sent a message to Russia about the US thinking twice before joining in the defence of Europe. That is very dangerous.

The US can afford to cut its defence spending and still have overwhelming might. It also absolutely has the right to ask its allies to spend more (especially the small number of larger countries in western Europe who have large enough economies to do so).

The only sure way to prevent aggressive Russian expansionism is the guarantee of huge consequences should Russia try it. Trump has just burst that bubble. Putin now knows that the US might not defend the Baltics. Well in that case there's no defence of Eastern Europe or Western Europe for that matter. The aim has to be to stop any chance of a war rather than changing the front line and defending the most important countries (or at least those who have spent enough on defence). We learned that lesson the hard way between 1900 and 1945 and remembered it for most of the 70 years since then. Turns out we should have defended Czechoslovakia in 1939 after all. How many American lives did that miscalculation cost? We seem to be forgetting that lesson now.

Of course the US doesn't want to engage in a European war. The Europeans are real experts at it and when they go for it you count casualties in the millions, making IS and Al Qaeda look like amateurs. I am sure that most Americans don't want to see young men and women dying to defend people who live so far from the US across a huge ocean.

Trump has however failed to grasp three essential truths
- You avoid a European war by taking a side and making sure that the other side know that you will defend it with everything you have.
- For the US avoiding a European war is not merely about preserving the freedom of Europeans (although being a UK citizen I like the thought that we might all work together on that project) it is also about having a world that is more stable, friendly and open to US trade, and where the US has natural allies everywhere else it has conflicts.
- True US security has never been about defending America's immediate borders, something the US has never had serious trouble in doing (illegal immigrants and the drugs trade do not count as having your borders threatened - they are just the kind of local inconveniences we all have to manage). in the past when the US has retreated into just defending its immediate borders either its economic interests have been damaged or it has ended up having to get involved in a World War.

Let's be clear. US and Western foreign policy across the world has often been misguided, ineffective and harmed many people. More often than not, local and regional conflicts have been made worse by Western involvement. I am therefore no fan of how the West has chosen to exercise its power in the globe, and I understand entirely why many people feel so much anger towards the West.

The balance of power between the US and most of Europe on one side and Russia and its satellites on the other, is however an entirely different issue. NATO is a consensual alliance seeking to avoid a global catastrophe.

Making sure that we avoid a third world war is not an irrelevance, just because it hasn't happened in a few years.

Trump should grasp this. Instead of making misguided comments about NATO to play to Americans at home who feel they are being taken advantage of, he needs to learn that the rest of the world is listening to everything he says.

For better or worse, as a serious contender for the White House, Trumps words really mean something now.

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 6:35:54 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Whilst I prefer Trump to war mongering Clinton, what the hell was he thinking.

WTF?! The NATO alliance is a promise of protection and he’s just claimed he will break that promise as well as giving Russia a very real message. “If I get in, I’ll fuck up NATO which means you can invade the Baltics without any resistance from us.


Trying to get NATO to step up and contribute more, and settle more things on their own, and not look to US to fix everything! This isn't about being on Putin's side.
Anyway, I was speaking to a friend last night who have in his job personally met and deal with Putin twice and frequently go into Russia too for work. An x-ambassador of Singapore to Russia is also a friend of mine who was based there while he served as ambassador.

Going by their feedback. Russian infrastructure is great, roads are good, public transport is fantastic, food is accessible everywhere. And the people love Putin. I asked is 85% approval ratings an exaggeration, and he said, it's probably higher than that, Russians are fucking inlove with Putin. They also say, being inside Russia feels normal, it's not like 1984 George Orwell feel.

A leader who inspires love and not fear is no evil.

I feel like alot of claims by the media about Putin were allegations and no solid proof.

So people giving Trump so much shit about being positive about Putin, it's like, I don't know what's going on.

I feel it's like foreigners who never been inside Singapore are also imaging an Orwellian society, where, you get caned for anything and everything. Because of the left media spin of our country too. But anyway, we kinda like the reputation, because that makes foreigners more well behave when they are in our country, worried they will be arrested and thrown in jail for any tiny thing.






< Message edited by Greta75 -- 8/5/2016 6:49:53 PM >

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 8:36:08 PM   
DominantWrestler


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Status: offline 		Greta, yes, we know you love Putin, Trump and dictatorships. You get dumber and more elitist with every post

Longwayhome, you bring up several good points. Pulling concepts from the Art of War, intimidation prevents the waste of resources in conflict. One of your other points, which is the basis of all western society, is consent. Consent of governments to partake in NATO, the consent of sexual partners, the consent of the governed (democracy), etc. A group functions best when the people's motivations are in line with the leadership's motivations. Because of all this, a unified NATO is key to world stability

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/5/2016 8:46:21 PM   
Dvr22999874


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Status: offline 		One thing greta might have forgotten is that Singapore is a signatory to the SEATO treaties. If Sg were to pull out of that, I wonder what the consequences might be ? That would certainly make an interesting read from Harry Turtledove *smile*. I am pretty sure though that there are a number of countries that would jump at the chance to come to the aid of ' oppressed ' minorities in Sg and put ' peacekeeping' troops in there just like Hitler did in WW2 with the Czechs and Sudetenland.

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/6/2016 3:21:28 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874
One thing greta might have forgotten is that Singapore is a signatory to the SEATO treaties. If Sg were to pull out of that, I wonder what the consequences might be ?

Except they have no reason to pull out as we are like NATO, contributing as little as possible of our money.

Every country is gonna do what is best for themselves. And if there is a wonderful country like the US who is willing to sacrifice the welfare of their own nation, as in put their own nation second to police every worldly problem and use their own funds to fix those problems. Most other nations would hands off and be like, "Hey, US is gonna fix it! Let them spend their money! We'll just sit on the sidelines and wait and watch until we are pressured to give something. Then we will give a little."



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 8/6/2016 3:23:39 AM >

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/6/2016 6:15:39 AM   
MariaB


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Status: offline 		Is Trump talking about indirect spending on NATO? The problem is, he doesn’t make that clear. If he’s talking about indirect spending then he does have a point, otherwise he’s done his sums wrong.

Here’s the full breakdown for the 2016-2017 budget period. NSIP, one of three elements listed, refers to the
NATO Security investment programme.

In 2012, the Congressional Research Service produced a report that looked at direct funding in detail. Despite Trump’s claim that the United States is spending “billions and billions” on NATO,
Defense Department Budget show the annual direct contribution is under $500 million a year.







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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/6/2016 6:54:08 AM   
longwayhome


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dvr22999874
One thing greta might have forgotten is that Singapore is a signatory to the SEATO treaties. If Sg were to pull out of that, I wonder what the consequences might be ?

Except they have no reason to pull out as we are like NATO, contributing as little as possible of our money.

Every country is gonna do what is best for themselves. And if there is a wonderful country like the US who is willing to sacrifice the welfare of their own nation, as in put their own nation second to police every worldly problem and use their own funds to fix those problems. Most other nations would hands off and be like, "Hey, US is gonna fix it! Let them spend their money! We'll just sit on the sidelines and wait and watch until we are pressured to give something. Then we will give a little."




The US isn't doing Europe a favour. Europe contributes hugely to the US economy and vice versa. Europe and the US are allies and interdependent in so many ways.

Strong healthy European states with strong economies are directly in America's best interests. Trump huffing around like a badly behaved child who wants all the toys and then trying to make friends with the biggest European bully isn't going to make playground relations any better, or be in his own country's best interests.

Sure Trump can urge for greater spending on defence, and he does have a point given what has happened in Europe during the recent recession, but he is disadvantaging his own people if he worsens relations with European countries, and even worse if he encourages Putin's aggressive expansionism.

Your country only exists because of the implicit protection of larger countries who want to maintain good economic relations with you in the interests of their own people. Singapore was not re-established as a state after the war by the Allies because of military might or spending. There was no need to do re-establish Singapore as a separate state after the war with Japan, especially as you can't defend yourself, apart from perhaps some misplaced British imperial nostalgia. The hope was that you would become a strong economy and an ally of the West. Your neighbours want to share trade and investment with you - just like the US relationship with Europe.

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RE: Trump is right on Nato has to step up more - 8/6/2016 7:19:09 AM   
Cinnamongirl67


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Status: offline 		I've been a big supporter of Trump but I'm a little disappointed at this point. I expect him to be firm. He needs to work on being more refined as a president in his speeches and approach. I really am not liking the personal attacks, it has gotten old. I wish he would begin to act more presidential and let the personal attacks on himself roll off his back and stick to the issues. That is then presidential material.

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