Thought experiment. (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> Thought experiment. (8/6/2016 9:32:50 PM)

Many of us who had the good fortune or luck to receive a higher education are familiar with thought experiments, although usually limited to physics.

And the 'educational' channels have often delved into the ramifications of first contact, a few physicists and astronomers have even written books on the subject, but all deal with one of two ideas.

1) the aliens that make contact are hell bent on destroying us and plundering the planet.
2) the aliens are a benevolent race and step in to solve all the world's problems in one quick and dirty interference play.

Yet, there is a third possibility.

An extra-planetary celestial event trigger dormant genes in a small but significant percentage of the human population, triggered by a race that set the genetic markers in place at the dawn of humanity.

Now, those individuals who's genetic make up allowed for the genes to be triggered undergo a mutation, during which, they are removed to other words that have been conditioned to support human life.

For arguments sake, lets set this number at 250 million out of the total of 7.4 billion people on the planet.

Now this group is not only put on planets but given advanced technology that is not quite up to par with the aliens that started the process.

And they are given but one task for all these wonderful things, they are to police the non changed humans as they expand into the galaxy.

As for the rest of the planet, this species makes contact and informs the people of earth that due to their actions, they were forced to step in because the international political climate gives a significant chance of a world confrontation that results in the extinction of the species.

So this race has stepped in.

In doing so, they clean up the environment, give medical knowledge with the cures to the major diseases, genetic, viral and bacterial.

The give humans clean energy technology.

They also give humans the ships to colonize other worlds, the technology and knowledge to build new ships, as well as the technology to defend ourselves should we run into less benevolent races.

They also lay down a few rules.

1) Earth is to be demilitarized. If the children want to misbehave and fight among themselves, they will do it outside so to speak.
2) If humans attempt to invade or otherwise harm inferior races, the guilty parties will be dealt with harshly.
3) If humans attempt to attack their benefactors, they will be dealt with and basically eliminated as a species to dangerous to be allowed to exist.

Finally they are told about the mutated humans and how it happened, and also informed that if the rest of the race plays nice, within 200 generations they will naturally begin to develop into the new race naturally.

They are also told the mutated human species are the ones tasked with making sure the rules are followed.

Now for the thought experiment.


1) if you were one of the few who went through the transformation, how would you personally react to the gift of advanced technology and the task of being the baby sitter to the rest of the human race, knowing that some may be friends or relatives?

2) As a member of the population that did not undergo the transformation, how would the information affect you personally?

3) What would the reactions of the political leaders be?

4) Make an best guess on the reaction of the population as a whole.



CarpeComa -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/6/2016 9:48:57 PM)

Wouldn't matter. Someone out of that 250 million would attack and the species would be wiped out.



NookieNotes -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 4:19:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Many of us who had the good fortune or luck to receive a higher education are familiar with thought experiments, although usually limited to physics.


Not interested in your thought experiment. Just found it interesting that you added "usually limited to physics."

Can you give any sources suggesting that thought experiments are somehow usually limited to physics in any way?

The reason I ask is because I grew up with academics, and there were thought experiments everyfuckingwhere. And while one was in physics, the thought experiments he took part in while I was around were not related to physics at all.

Now, I realize this is my personal experience, so I typed "thought experiment" into google. In wikipedia, it was suggested that, "Thought experiments have been used in a variety of fields, including philosophy, law, physics, and mathematics. In philosophy, they have been used at least since classical antiquity, some pre-dating Socrates. In law, they were well-known to Roman lawyers quoted in the Digest.[6] In physics and other sciences, notable thought experiments date from the 19th and especially the 20th century, but examples can be found at least as early as Galileo."

Which, to me suggests that more thought experiments have been held in philosophy than in physics, and uphold my experience that they are not usually limited to physics in higher education or elsewhere.

Perhaps I'm wrong.



WhoreMods -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 4:51:16 AM)

I think Jack Kirby, Chris Claremont and Grant Morrison (among many others) have indulged in quite a bit of speculation about how such a situation might play out. (It's one that turned up in prose SF before comics started getting interesting in the '60s as well, of course: Childhood's End by Clarke and Agent Of Vulcan by St Clair both spring to mind for a start.)
[:D]



jlf1961 -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 5:51:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Many of us who had the good fortune or luck to receive a higher education are familiar with thought experiments, although usually limited to physics.


Not interested in your thought experiment. Just found it interesting that you added "usually limited to physics."

Can you give any sources suggesting that thought experiments are somehow usually limited to physics in any way?

The reason I ask is because I grew up with academics, and there were thought experiments everyfuckingwhere. And while one was in physics, the thought experiments he took part in while I was around were not related to physics at all.

Now, I realize this is my personal experience, so I typed "thought experiment" into google. In wikipedia, it was suggested that, "Thought experiments have been used in a variety of fields, including philosophy, law, physics, and mathematics. In philosophy, they have been used at least since classical antiquity, some pre-dating Socrates. In law, they were well-known to Roman lawyers quoted in the Digest.[6] In physics and other sciences, notable thought experiments date from the 19th and especially the 20th century, but examples can be found at least as early as Galileo."

Which, to me suggests that more thought experiments have been held in philosophy than in physics, and uphold my experience that they are not usually limited to physics in higher education or elsewhere.

Perhaps I'm wrong.



I stand corrected, although, the most prevalent ones I am familiar with are limited the field of physics, most notably, the plane on the conveyor belt.

Although, I would say the group in a life boat might be considered one as well, where you have to pick who goes in the water due to limited supplies (never understood why rationing was not considered an option though.)

As for thought experiments in other fields, I admittedly, never heard that term applied to them. In mathematics, for example, I have seen many referred to as non-solvable equations.

My primary field is history, and similar problems are more of a riddle than anything else, and linked to 'out of place' artifacts discovered by archaeologists, such as the Baghdad battery, or the hieroglyph that, according to ancient alien theorists, depict an electric light bulb.


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

I think Jack Kirby, Chris Claremont and Grant Morrison (among many others) have indulged in quite a bit of speculation about how such a situation might play out. (It's one that turned up in prose SF before comics started getting interesting in the '60s as well, of course: Childhood's End by Clarke and Agent Of Vulcan by St Clair both spring to mind for a start.)
[:D]



Actually, there were a few others, although, few and far between, although most did not go with the idea of separating humans in two groups.



kiwisub22 -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 6:38:24 AM)

This sounds a lot like the plot for "The Midwich Cuckoos" by John Wyndham.

Aliens implant dna in a group of children who are sports, or varients on the human condition. Needless to say, things don't go well.
Humans don't play well with others.....



NookieNotes -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 6:39:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Many of us who had the good fortune or luck to receive a higher education are familiar with thought experiments, although usually limited to physics.


Not interested in your thought experiment. Just found it interesting that you added "usually limited to physics."

Can you give any sources suggesting that thought experiments are somehow usually limited to physics in any way?

The reason I ask is because I grew up with academics, and there were thought experiments everyfuckingwhere. And while one was in physics, the thought experiments he took part in while I was around were not related to physics at all.

Now, I realize this is my personal experience, so I typed "thought experiment" into google. In wikipedia, it was suggested that, "Thought experiments have been used in a variety of fields, including philosophy, law, physics, and mathematics. In philosophy, they have been used at least since classical antiquity, some pre-dating Socrates. In law, they were well-known to Roman lawyers quoted in the Digest.[6] In physics and other sciences, notable thought experiments date from the 19th and especially the 20th century, but examples can be found at least as early as Galileo."

Which, to me suggests that more thought experiments have been held in philosophy than in physics, and uphold my experience that they are not usually limited to physics in higher education or elsewhere.

Perhaps I'm wrong.



I stand corrected, although, the most prevalent ones I am familiar with are limited the field of physics, most notably, the plane on the conveyor belt.


Fair enough. I grew up with a philosophy professor father, and thought experiments were part of my raising, from a very young age (mostly age-appropriate, LOL!).



WhoreMods -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 7:59:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

This sounds a lot like the plot for "The Midwich Cuckoos" by John Wyndham.

Aliens implant dna in a group of children who are sports, or varients on the human condition. Needless to say, things don't go well.
Humans don't play well with others.....

I was forgetting that one. Gordon Dickson's Dorsai series is another that seems relevant, along with Gwyneth Jones' White Queen. There's loads that could be named, really.



jlf1961 -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 10:18:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

Fair enough. I grew up with a philosophy professor father, and thought experiments were part of my raising, from a very young age (mostly age-appropriate, LOL!).



Not to denigrate your father, I hated philosophy classes with a passion.

Of course I entered college almost immediately out of the army where I had lived on the "kill em first so they do not get the chance to kill you" rule of thumb.

I mean Kant, Thomas Acquinas, Socrates etc just did not seem to have any connection with the life I had just led, and that famous line from "The Wrath of Khan" about the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one seemed to only apply in the most basic term of some of us put their lives on the line for those that cant or wont.

I passed the classes, but hated every minute of it. Psychology was little better (I came out of those classes thinking that I was one truly fucked up individual.)

My forte was history and the hard sciences, and while I have seen philosophy listed as a humanities, I could not help but think that it, at least to me, more of a science than anything else and more applicable to modern civilization than say Anthropology.



jlf1961 -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 10:21:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub22

This sounds a lot like the plot for "The Midwich Cuckoos" by John Wyndham.

Aliens implant dna in a group of children who are sports, or varients on the human condition. Needless to say, things don't go well.
Humans don't play well with others.....

I was forgetting that one. Gordon Dickson's Dorsai series is another that seems relevant, along with Gwyneth Jones' White Queen. There's loads that could be named, really.



Great, now I have to reread the Dorsai series to see what the hell I missed.

Of course there was the episode of the original star trek series in which an alien race stopped a war between the Federation and Klingons.



WhoreMods -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 10:30:38 AM)

It's a while since I read any of it myself, but wasn't the thrust of The Final Encyclopedia that Hal Mayne was the first of a new subspecies that was dues to emerge and would eventually guide humanity to a higher plane, so long as he managed to avoid getting killed off by the bad guys first? (I think that was what splitting humanity up into the Dorsai and the other subspecies was originally done in order to achieve, though it took a while before it happened.)



ThatDizzyChick -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 10:41:38 AM)

quote:

Humans don't play well with others.....

We are the ultimate super predators, we slaughter other lifeforms for fun.



jlf1961 -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 10:46:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

It's a while since I read any of it myself, but wasn't the thrust of The Final Encyclopedia that Hal Mayne was the first of a new subspecies that was dues to emerge and would eventually guide humanity to a higher plane, so long as he managed to avoid getting killed off by the bad guys first? (I think that was what splitting humanity up into the Dorsai and the other subspecies was originally done in order to achieve, though it took a while before it happened.)



There was a short lived series called "The Starwolves" in which an alien race created a contrasting species to humans out of artificial genetic material.

The starwolves were essentially created to protect and defend one human dominated government from another group of humans who had established a trading empire, and sought to dominate the galaxy financially.

The Terran Republic had been forced to abandon earth at some point early in the war, and over the thousands of years since had forgotten where they had left it so to speak.

So the books basically dealt with a minority species that was genetically superior to humans, various sub species of humans that had evolved to be superior to your standard humans, and the Corporate human worlds who, due to lack of 'natural' selection was breeding itself into extinction due to genetically inferior offspring.

Thorarinn Gunnarsson was the author, and although out of print, copies routinely show up on amazon.

The one thing that got me, it seemed that the starwolves themselves were programmed at the genetic level to preserve human life, whether it was corporate worlders or not. In battle, they went out of their way to minimize human casualties, often at the risk to their own well being and survival. It was only in the last book where they, as a race, decided that the existing status quo was detrimental to their existence and imposed a peace accord on both groups of humans that insured the survival of all races in the known galaxy.



WhoreMods -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 10:49:19 AM)

I like the sound of that a lot. In fact, that sounds rather like a lefty take on some of Poul Anderson's space operas. I'll have to see if there's any on ebay or abebooks.



jlf1961 -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 11:00:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

I like the sound of that a lot. In fact, that sounds rather like a lefty take on some of Poul Anderson's space operas. I'll have to see if there's any on ebay or abebooks.



Uh, also look at Andre Norton Time Traders series dealing with an advanced race that either seeded earth or somehow manipulated human evolution, then there are the Forerunner series of books as well.



WhoreMods -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 11:14:24 AM)

The only Norton I've ever read are a few of the Witch World books, to be honest.

I'm trying to think of stuff that's closer to your scenario in the original post with an enhanced colonial quisling government keeping the rest of the native population out of trouble, but it is more comics that spring to mind for that one. I know that's where the Eternals, the Inhumans and the Asgardians come from in the Marvel stuff, isn't it?



jlf1961 -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 11:22:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

The only Norton I've ever read are a few of the Witch World books, to be honest.

I'm trying to think of stuff that's closer to your scenario in the original post with an enhanced colonial quisling government keeping the rest of the native population out of trouble, but it is more comics that spring to mind for that one. I know that's where the Eternals, the Inhumans and the Asgardians come from in the Marvel stuff, isn't it?



Yup, but if you tell anyone that I am still a reader of comic books I will hunt you down and put ghost pepper juice on everything in your underwear drawer!


and in the containers of any substance used to facilitate the use of toys



WhoreMods -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 11:25:41 AM)

Hey, my lips are sealed.
[;)]



WickedsDesire -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 11:45:52 AM)

i am well read....

there are no genuine women on here - save those in fabulous relationships, their forked turns declares you marvel at their poison and you bhold their errant glory

then there is me alone 3 cats and a hot water bottle

Prehistory and time immemorial consume me

incidentally no-one want our planet





WhoreMods -> RE: Thought experiment. (8/7/2016 11:55:22 AM)

I suppose you could make a case for Niven's Ringworld and related stuff, but that one doesn't really fit because the Pak and the human race share a common ancestry.



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