RE: Cut the Military Budget

RE: Cut the Military Budget (Full Version)

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BamaD -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/11/2016 11:21:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: littleclip congress has mandated budget cuts and has forced purchase of pet projects and congress wont allow a base realignment and closure round as some 20% of bases and infrastructure is excess. this has forced the cuts to programs and services to the soldiers. reserve units are having to skip one of the weapons qualifications scheduled due to not being able to afford the bullets. this happened in my last unit and set to in my current one. oh and the free care after serving in war it took 10 months to get a my torn knee fixed by the va. reserve and guard pay for the medical and dental ins and it pas so poorly that more accept Medicaid than Tricare reserve. cut the pay for those in congress and let them survive on 20k a year and see how fast things change When I was based a FT Meade MD Congress decided not to give us a raise, but gave themselves a 20% (or more) raise because you couldn't live on a mere 125,000 raise. Last year I turned 65 and they forced me to move out of Tricare prime (about 20 a month) and made me move to medicare at over 100 a month. Wasn't that congressional raise done at midnight on a Friday. I seem to remember that. Sounds like the way Les Aspin worked. These two were Bush the father. I'm sure there were more. http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/1989/12/congress-vs-america-how-congress-raises-its-own-pay https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=932&dat=19910719&id=2yBQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wFYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5321,2164993&hl=en I was talking about the one in the 70's

BamaD -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/11/2016 11:26:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers How about the outlandish cost overruns at the Pentagon, $9 billion aircraft carrier that turns into over $13 billion ? The F35 10 year acquisition that goes from $1.3 trillion to $1.9 trillion and climbing ? The ever-escalating cost of the B2 bomber ? How about cutting the brass ? It's now so top heavy we won WWII on two fronts with 1000 generals total. We now have over 2000. Add to that the very generous military retirement for officers that see no action at all. Much more than private industry and in addition to soc. sec and any other fed benefits and retirement. How many times should you have to be fired at to get retirement credit? How much proof do you need that you were fired at? Are the tours where you were fired at the only ones that you get retirement credit for? Does the enemy have to comfirm that you, personnaly were the targe? Do mortor or cannon fire cont since they are not generally aimed at an individual? A bit overwrought in describing duty known as any duty in a combat zone, isn't it ? Those that have served in a combat zone should get the max. benefits but I am just not so sure about those that never did and especially as generous as these benefits are for officers. So the man who flys into the combat zone gets retirement credit but the man who finds the safest approach to the target so he can come home in one peice doesn't. How about the man who keeps his plane in the air? Again, he keeps the pilot alive. And do you only get credit for the time you spend in combat zones? Oh please, you've been in military and you profess not knowing exactly the difference I am talking about ? I am talking about assigned duty in a combat zone and you know what that is. Even then, many don't actually come under fire. So ? I know what I am talking about but your basic sugesstion is so far out anything is possible. Tell me would people at recruitings stations be included in your plan? Several of them got shot last year for being military. How about Ft Hood? You don't understand that the moment you sign those papers you can be sent anywhere at anytime regardless of your afsc, or mos. Every person in the military has signed away their life so you would have the right to gut what few benifits they have.

BamaD -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/11/2016 11:32:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers How about the outlandish cost overruns at the Pentagon, $9 billion aircraft carrier that turns into over $13 billion ? The F35 10 year acquisition that goes from $1.3 trillion to $1.9 trillion and climbing ? The ever-escalating cost of the B2 bomber ? How about cutting the brass ? It's now so top heavy we won WWII on two fronts with 1000 generals total. We now have over 2000. Add to that the very generous military retirement for officers that see no action at all. Much more than private industry and in addition to soc. sec and any other fed benefits and retirement. You don't understand much about the military do you. A lot of officers who were never under fire did things that kept many of those who were alive. By your standard Gen Marshall would not have gotten a retirement, or at least a greatly reduced one. Not only that but the retirement is one of the ways they excuse the pay they give people. Well Marshall's life was never threatened and not only was his retirement going be very nice anyway, who's to say that for example...Patton and others like him, shouldn't had gotten more ? As for officers, their active duty pay is just fine and there are far too many of the highest ranks anyway active and then of course now, many...retired and on several $1,000/month. Plus many 'retire' and then go work in private MIC jobs and make 6 figures being straight from the inside. I know an admiral who over 30 years ago, retired on $5,000 a month on top of soc. sec. and went to work for a def. contractor at $200,000/yr. Officers, let alone enlisted, get a minute fraction of what anyone in civilian life would get for comprable responsibility. You do know that because they are on retirement they can be called back on a moments notice, as can enlisted people don't you? Well their pay is very comparable to private industry pay and no, after a certain age, they cannot be called back in once their commitment is up. Plus there would be a draft first if we actually had a real war...not this shit we get into now. No it isn't. You don't understand what it means when you sign up. You give up a lot of your rights. You give someone the right to send you to certain death, and to kill you if you refuse to go. You agree to live anywhere they say under what ever conditions they say to. And all you get are the promises of politicans and people like you sitting nice and safe because of you and see you as a good place to take money for your pet projects. You would no doubt have aprroved of Les Aspins plan to lower the standards for military people, not because they were higher than needed but so they wouldn't understand when their benifits taken away.

BamaD -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/11/2016 11:35:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: littleclip congress has mandated budget cuts and has forced purchase of pet projects and congress wont allow a base realignment and closure round as some 20% of bases and infrastructure is excess. this has forced the cuts to programs and services to the soldiers. reserve units are having to skip one of the weapons qualifications scheduled due to not being able to afford the bullets. this happened in my last unit and set to in my current one. oh and the free care after serving in war it took 10 months to get a my torn knee fixed by the va. reserve and guard pay for the medical and dental ins and it pas so poorly that more accept Medicaid than Tricare reserve. cut the pay for those in congress and let them survive on 20k a year and see how fast things change When I was based a FT Meade MD Congress decided not to give us a raise, but gave themselves a 20% (or more) raise because you couldn't live on a mere 125,000 raise. Last year I turned 65 and they forced me to move out of Tricare prime (about 20 a month) and made me move to medicare at over 100 a month. Wasn't that congressional raise done at midnight on a Friday. I seem to remember that. Sounds like the way Les Aspin worked. Yet another ridiculous partisan swipe. Congressional pay and raises is about the most egregious bipartisan affair we have going in congress. Les Aspin was head of the House Armed Forces Committee and he was devoted to choping up the military. There was nothing partisan in what I said, he was antimilitary scum, and it didn't matter what party he belonged to.

BamaD -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/11/2016 11:40:12 PM)
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BamaD -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/11/2016 11:44:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Bama, you forgot to say thatt when we are forced to get Medicare and Social Security, we have our retirement pay cut to help make up the difference in the budget. As far as I know, we have the only retirement plan to be forced to do that. I did mention that when I turned 65% I was forced to drop tricare prime and take medicare, the cost of which is deducted from my Social Security. And Medicare doesn't have to pay all of your medical bills. And yes people want to pass all kinds of programs to make everyone dependant on the government and stick it to the military people who provided them with the security and safety to do so in order to pay for it.

MrRodgers -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/12/2016 12:55:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: littleclip congress has mandated budget cuts and has forced purchase of pet projects and congress wont allow a base realignment and closure round as some 20% of bases and infrastructure is excess. this has forced the cuts to programs and services to the soldiers. reserve units are having to skip one of the weapons qualifications scheduled due to not being able to afford the bullets. this happened in my last unit and set to in my current one. oh and the free care after serving in war it took 10 months to get a my torn knee fixed by the va. reserve and guard pay for the medical and dental ins and it pas so poorly that more accept Medicaid than Tricare reserve. cut the pay for those in congress and let them survive on 20k a year and see how fast things change When I was based a FT Meade MD Congress decided not to give us a raise, but gave themselves a 20% (or more) raise because you couldn't live on a mere 125,000 raise. Last year I turned 65 and they forced me to move out of Tricare prime (about 20 a month) and made me move to medicare at over 100 a month. Wasn't that congressional raise done at midnight on a Friday. I seem to remember that. Sounds like the way Les Aspin worked. Yet another ridiculous partisan swipe. Congressional pay and raises is about the most egregious bipartisan affair we have going in congress. Les Aspin was head of the House Armed Forces Committee and he was devoted to choping up the military. There was nothing partisan in what I said, he was antimilitary scum, and it didn't matter what party he belonged to. You don't mean this Les Aspin, do you ? By the 1980s Aspin had seemingly become more conservative and more accepted by those supporting President Reagan's defense build-up. His record became more mixed; he was in favor of a nuclear arms freeze, but not for a moratorium on the use of nuclear weapons. He supported a 5 percent growth in defense spending and, most controversially, the MX missile. Indeed, his actions in 1983 and 1984 saved the MX missile when House liberals thought they had defeated the funding for it. Liberals believed that he had promised them the elimination of the MX missile program, but instead he took the position of slowing down the growth of the program. These representatives felt betrayed when Aspin again saved the system at the behest of Reagan. Aspin then became the leader of a group called Defense Democrats who supported portions of Reagan's military program although advocating less resources for them. This group wished to accelerate the midgetman program and reduce, but not eliminate, funding for research on the so-called Star Wars missile program. Aspin again became controversial with his position on Reagan's Central American policy. Despite his anti-Vietnam War history, he supported the administration's program of aid to the El Salvadorian government in the face of that government's bad record on human rights and late in 1986 supported the Reagan effort to extend military aid to the Contra rebels in Nicaragua. This angered many congressional Democrats who had fought hard against such aid. Military conservatives were not happy either. Aspin had continued to attack waste in the Pentagon, to demand more efficiency in the Defense Department, and to reduce what he considered to be bloated retirement pay. Well hey, everybody knows the repubs support waste, fraud and abuse at the Pentagon...see above for 'my' partisanship. HERE

BamaD -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/12/2016 1:06:08 AM)
Yes, the Les Aspin who wouldn't let the troops in Somolia have Abrams or Apaches and the blamed it on the commanders on the ground who had requested them. You have heard of Blackhawk down haven't you. Sure he was against waste but to him anything spent on the military was waste. He like you didn't understand that the two major causes of waste were dragging out procurment, and the procurement system set up by Congress that often led to the doubling or tripling of costs. But he wanted to take money away from the troops, and if every aircraft he fought had been stopped we would have been flying F4s in Desert Storm. All you showed was that Aspin could be a political opotunist.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/12/2016 1:36:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So the man who flys into the combat zone gets retirement credit but the man who finds the safest approach to the target so he can come home in one peice doesn't. How about the man who keeps his plane in the air? Again, he keeps the pilot alive. And do you only get credit for the time you spend in combat zones? Careful how we proceed here. Don't forget, Hillary came under sniper fire in Bosnia. I don't think she deserves max military benefits....

BamaD -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/12/2016 1:59:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD So the man who flys into the combat zone gets retirement credit but the man who finds the safest approach to the target so he can come home in one peice doesn't. How about the man who keeps his plane in the air? Again, he keeps the pilot alive. And do you only get credit for the time you spend in combat zones? Careful how we proceed here. Don't forget, Hillary came under sniper fire in Bosnia. I don't think she deserves max military benefits.... She's not in the military.

thompsonx -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/12/2016 5:51:28 AM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD Officers, let alone enlisted, get a minute fraction of what anyone in civilian life would get for comprable responsibility. Tell us of the great responsibilities of junior enlisted men(who make up the majority of the military). You do know that because they are on retirement they can be called back on a moments notice, Comissioned officers serve at the pleasure of the president. as can enlisted people don't you? Enlisted folk who have served 6 years active are free for life.

thompsonx -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/12/2016 5:57:18 AM)
ORIGINAL: Nnanji Oh please. A top army general is paid $180k with decent benefits. That general probably has a quarter of a million people in his command structure. The commandant of the marine corps is the boss of a little less than 200,000 men. In addition to his pay he has full medical and dental, high quality chow,driver,etc. which typically doubles his pay he also gets a pretty generous retirement plan. How much does a Google or FB CEO make? Why do you think those are equivilant to a generl in the military?

mnottertail -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/12/2016 6:48:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: MrRodgers How about the outlandish cost overruns at the Pentagon, $9 billion aircraft carrier that turns into over $13 billion ? The F35 10 year acquisition that goes from $1.3 trillion to $1.9 trillion and climbing ? The ever-escalating cost of the B2 bomber ? How about cutting the brass ? It's now so top heavy we won WWII on two fronts with 1000 generals total. We now have over 2000. Add to that the very generous military retirement for officers that see no action at all. Much more than private industry and in addition to soc. sec and any other fed benefits and retirement. You don't understand much about the military do you. A lot of officers who were never under fire did things that kept many of those who were alive. By your standard Gen Marshall would not have gotten a retirement, or at least a greatly reduced one. Not only that but the retirement is one of the ways they excuse the pay they give people. Well Marshall's life was never threatened and not only was his retirement going be very nice anyway, who's to say that for example...Patton and others like him, shouldn't had gotten more ? As for officers, their active duty pay is just fine and there are far too many of the highest ranks anyway active and then of course now, many...retired and on several $1,000/month. Plus many 'retire' and then go work in private MIC jobs and make 6 figures being straight from the inside. I know an admiral who over 30 years ago, retired on $5,000 a month on top of soc. sec. and went to work for a def. contractor at $200,000/yr. Officers, let alone enlisted, get a minute fraction of what anyone in civilian life would get for comprable responsibility. You do know that because they are on retirement they can be called back on a moments notice, as can enlisted people don't you? Well their pay is very comparable to private industry pay and no, after a certain age, they cannot be called back in once their commitment is up. Plus there would be a draft first if we actually had a real war...not this shit we get into now. Oh please. A top army general is paid $180k with decent benefits. That general probably has a quarter of a million people in his command structure. How much does a Google or FB CEO make? 237, 150 without any benefits included. They spend most of their time steering contracts to private business and are paid when they retire from those businesses some pretty outrageous pay. There are 39 four stars, active military is 1,301,300. About 33,400 for each general.

cloudboy -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/12/2016 8:50:49 AM)
Actually the $15 an hour figure comes from Bernie Sanders. Once Obama is out of office, you'll have to find another catch-all for everything you don't like. I'm sure that will be HRC.

LadyPact -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/13/2016 2:36:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Every year at Christmas, the senior personnel would put together "care" packages for the younger troops to help with Christmas Dinner because they couldn't afford it with all the trimmings. I'll tell you a story. MP and I were married less than a year. He got called up to go to Oman for three months. Then, he got extended. Ohhhhhh, I was pissed. We weren't exactly rolling in dough back then. We weren't starving but things were pretty tight. The Monday before the holiday, this guy with MP's rear attachment shows up at the door. He's holding this box. Truth be told, it's a pretty big box. He starts explaining to me that the box was for us. No, it wasn't a mistake. Inside the box? Everything that I could have wanted for a holiday meal, and then some. A turkey. Potatoes. Yams. Celery, carrots, flour, sugar, salt. Green beans, canned pumpkin, apples, oranges. Chocolate pudding mix for the kids. Extra peanut butter, bread, crackers, condensed soup. That kind of thing. All in all, pretty damn amazing box. So, if nobody every told you, thank you, from my military family to yours. That box meant something to me then and it still does now.

thompsonx -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/13/2016 3:47:54 PM)
ORIGINAL: KenDckey Yes, they get free housing which they have no control over in decorating, living conditions, etc. It is subject to intrusion 24/7 by strangers who have control. That is not exactly true now is it ken? If you live in the barracks then that is true of e4 and below. e5 and above have private rooms and access is by permission only. They work 24/7 as required, Bullshit. not a 40 hour week. The overwhelming majority of the military work a 40 hour week. I can't remember having a 40 hr week in the 20 years I spent in. You are making shit up again. They have restrictions on the clothing they can have and wear. While that is true in boot camp and some training units but not true at large in the military. Limitations on how far they can travel on any given day. etc. Which of those limitations did you find to be unrealistic? AC/Heat. Sometimes, not always. Ever live in a tent in the snow with no heat or in the heat (over 120) with no AC? I have. And when you were a child you walked to school up hill both ways in the snow?[8\|] They get food (maybe) and it isn't necessarily what they want to eat. It is food, dejydrated (often), less than grade A meats (cost factor), etc. That just is not true.

thompsonx -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/13/2016 3:51:43 PM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD And yes people want to pass all kinds of programs to make everyone dependant on the government and stick it to the military people who provided them with the security and safety to do so in order to pay for it. Perhaps you could tell us which war the amerikan army won besides the civil war?

LadyPact -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/13/2016 6:47:10 PM)
May I? quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx ORIGINAL: KenDckey Yes, they get free housing which they have no control over in decorating, living conditions, etc. It is subject to intrusion 24/7 by strangers who have control. That is not exactly true now is it ken? If you live in the barracks then that is true of e4 and below. e5 and above have private rooms and access is by permission only. You're not exactly right, either. If you are talking about barracks, you're sort of right. E-5 and above have a little more latitude. They usually aren't the targets of 'pop-up' room inspections. Where we lived in family quarters, "by permission only" meant within 24 hours. When asshole started calling the authorities on post, lying about how he'd built a "panic room" downstairs, that I was supposedly running to because MP was abusing me? There was no "panic room". There were a bunch of floggers on the walls. MP and I worked for hours that Monday night to tear apart every piece of kink, so we'd be ready on time. quote: They work 24/7 as required, Bullshit. Nope. Not bullshit. When we lived in Alaska, I used to joke with MP that he had the cushiest job in the Army. A lot of times, he did. He went in at nine. Got home by five. No soldiers to babysit. No field. He was pretty much 'dead man's profile' so no PT. The only big hang up was/were the equipment calibrations. Drive to Fairbanks and back 2~3 times a week. quote: not a 40 hour week. The overwhelming majority of the military work a 40 hour week. I can't remember having a 40 hr week in the 20 years I spent in. You are making shit up again. In my experience, he's not. MP worked his tail off for every stitch and stripe he ever got. quote: They have restrictions on the clothing they can have and wear. While that is true in boot camp and some training units but not true at large in the military. Ummm, yeah, it is. Would you care to see the UCMJ regs on the matter? quote: Limitations on how far they can travel on any given day. etc. Which of those limitations did you find to be unrealistic? The one where MP couldn't go to his own mother's funeral because it wasn't "in line" with our travel from CA to AK. We had to report. The Red Cross didn't catch up with us until it was over. quote: AC/Heat. Sometimes, not always. Ever live in a tent in the snow with no heat or in the heat (over 120) with no AC? I have. And when you were a child you walked to school up hill both ways in the snow?[8\|] This one is dumb. You'd never think a person would want AC in Alaska. That last summer? I would have killed for a window unit. (Either that, or a window in the living room that opened.) Ninety-nine degrees and the heat from the wildfires on top of it. quote: They get food (maybe) and it isn't necessarily what they want to eat. It is food, dejydrated (often), less than grade A meats (cost factor), etc. That just is not true. Actually, it is. I hear that MRE's aren't bad compared to that green chicken. I'm not bitching. It wasn't all bad. MP took the lion's share of the sh^t shovel.

thompsonx -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/13/2016 6:51:37 PM)
ORIGINAL: LadyPact Your experience with the military was clearly different than mine.

LadyPact -> RE: Cut the Military Budget (8/13/2016 7:19:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx ORIGINAL: LadyPact Your experience with the military was clearly different than mine. Maybe it's because you weren't a spouse? Your time? You were probably just doing your job. Ya know, that thing you said before about how 'the Army didn't issue you a wife so you don't need one"? Some of that changed. It's different now. Some of it, anyway. As far as I'm concerned, there ain't gonna be anybody on this board calling MP a pussy or there was some kind of free ride involved with the benefits he got. MP's a better man than those who would talk shit about him.

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