RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later?

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vincentML -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/7/2016 9:17:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KJoeDuo Pithy but inaccurate. Justice is a concept of cultural norms supported by laws and safety is an emotional state of being and/or a measurable trait in society. It is easy to be flippant. Get used to flippant on these boards. It is only a mild attribute of our discourse. Of course, feeling safe is an emotional state. But being safe or vulnerable is a reality. Mr. Trump has made an issue of our vulnerability under the current Administration and the Generals who have been "reduced to rubble." And that is "bad, very bad." Has the Dept of Homeland Security failed us?

vincentML -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/7/2016 9:30:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hot4bondage TSA, warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention, enhanced interrogation, extraordinary rendition, parallel construction--none of those made me fell safer. Surely we made improvements somewhere, but all I can think of is stronger cockpit doors. ...And a much higher likelihood of bad guys getting tackled by the other passengers, but that's a change in culture, not government. The tunnels leading into NYC have been reinforced to withstand explosives. Many container ships are now inspected at international ports of departure before they arrive here. Major cities have received armaments from DHS and intel alerts are distributed much more quickly. NYC and others have increased their counter-terrorist task forces. NYC has members of its force overseas. The FBI has grown and received a mandate to act aggressively to seek out bad guys. The Southern Border Patrol has been increased a lot. A $trillion has been spent to keep you safe. The security-information complex has grown exponentially over the last decade and a half. Doesn't all that make you feel more comfy? Have you changed your life style ~ your goings and comings ~ because of fear of impending attacks? Probably not. Right? So, you feel safe. No? Or are we just clueless about the dangers? Slumbering again?

mnottertail -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/7/2016 10:08:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or quote: ORIGINAL: KJoeDuo The American military is decreasing in size; but not quality. This is the same restructuring which occurs after every conflict. The issue of what POTUS does/does not is a separate issue. How so ? Are they melting down those boat anchor F-35s and buying MIGs ? T^T Well, smaller but more efficient military was a Donald Rumsfeld project. We do not anticipate having to fight battles similar to those in the past World Wars. Much more command to field technology now with satellites, drones, and so on. Maybe we will one day again need a ten million man military but that seems doubtful. Anyway, are we dependent on the military to make us feel safe today? I don't see how. The chinese, in 2007 I believe shot down one of their old satellites with an ordinary off the shelf missle, no warhead. I think we should rethink ku, fu, chi, sui, ka . Our military, in terms of real war has been found to have very expensive no clothes.

tweakabelle -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 1:05:48 AM)
It seems that not many Americans feel safer after 15 years of the "War on Terror". My guess is that finding would be replicated throughout the Western world. It seems that we are no nearer an end to the terrorist threat than at any stage since the threat emerged. Even the likely military defeat of IS won't end the threat to the West or the regional instability: "Isis is under attack in and around the last three big cities it holds in Iraq and Syria – Fallujah, Mosul and Raqqa. It is likely to lose these battles because its lightly armed if fanatical infantry, fighting from fixed positions, cannot withstand air strikes called in by specialised ground forces. They must choose between retreating and reverting to guerrilla war or suffering devastating losses." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-mosul-fallujah-raqqa-syria-iraq-a7057791.html So an IS defeat in Iraq/Syria will more than likely cause IS to focus on attacks by sleeper cells in the West - it won't eliminate the threat. The battle may have been lost by IS but the war will rage on in a different format. It does seem reasonable to question the current strategy if it has failed to deliver any appreciable results in 15 years. Given its lack of success, surely we need to be adopting a new different strategy.

BamaD -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 9:04:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle It seems that not many Americans feel safer after 15 years of the "War on Terror". My guess is that finding would be replicated throughout the Western world. It seems that we are no nearer an end to the terrorist threat than at any stage since the threat emerged. Even the likely military defeat of IS won't end the threat to the West or the regional instability: "Isis is under attack in and around the last three big cities it holds in Iraq and Syria – Fallujah, Mosul and Raqqa. It is likely to lose these battles because its lightly armed if fanatical infantry, fighting from fixed positions, cannot withstand air strikes called in by specialised ground forces. They must choose between retreating and reverting to guerrilla war or suffering devastating losses." http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-mosul-fallujah-raqqa-syria-iraq-a7057791.html So an IS defeat in Iraq/Syria will more than likely cause IS to focus on attacks by sleeper cells in the West - it won't eliminate the threat. The battle may have been lost by IS but the war will rage on in a different format. It does seem reasonable to question the current strategy if it has failed to deliver any appreciable results in 15 years. Given its lack of success, surely we need to be adopting a new different strategy. Convert and all will be forgiven.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 10:01:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML We are about a week away from the 15th Anniversary of the attack on the NY Twin Trade Towers. According to this Article about one Trillion dollars has been spent on homeland security. Money well spent? Do you feel safer? Do you not? Why or why not? It is a lengthy article. I have read it but I am not an expert obviously, so I am more interested in your opinion. Which terrorist scenario can you imagine that would find us most vulnerable? Or if you read the article which do you agree or disagree with? Money well spent? No. Money spent with good intentions? I think so. We're probably safer from foreign attacks than we were before. That is, from attacks that start outside the US. I don't tink we're safer from attacks from radicalization of citizens within US borders. We're probably less safe since the risk of that happening is higher. The military is our first line of defense. The monitoring and detection systems that recognize, alert and respond to direct actions against the US (from outside the US) is a defensive system, and the military is all over that. But, it's more likely to be seen as the executioner" for what we determine justice to be, and/or it's our first line of offense. Look at what we've done outside the US. Outside of a direct attack on the US and/or imminent threat of direct attack on the US, we have sent our military. We acted in Libya where there was no threat of direct attack on the US. We've had dealings in Syria, where there is no real threat of attack on the US. We supported the Afghan rebels way on back against the USSR/Afghan regime. That bit us in the ass, didn't it? We acted in Iran. We acted in Iraq, creating Saddam Hussein (who we'd later go back and depose). In 1991, we were the bulk of a UN-sanctioned coalition of countries that responded to the Iraq attack on Kuwait. Bush 43's attacks on Iraq were, to some degree, and enforcement of the conditions set forth in the UN Resolution (UNSCR 687) that ended hostilities in the first Gulf War. All the overt and covert dealings likely have not made us safer.

vincentML -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 11:33:53 AM)
quote: So an IS defeat in Iraq/Syria will more than likely cause IS to focus on attacks by sleeper cells in the West - it won't eliminate the threat. The battle may have been lost by IS but the war will rage on in a different format. It does seem reasonable to question the current strategy if it has failed to deliver any appreciable results in 15 years. Given its lack of success, surely we need to be adopting a new different strategy. Oil was discovered by a British Company in Iran in 1908. The rise of the automobile industry, the development of the airplane and the tank through WWI, and the necessity of armaments productions that lead to the spread of oil driven factories all contributed to the increasing value of oil. After WWI France and Britain carved up the Near East and added that land to their empires. Churchill desperately tried to hold the British Empire with his North African gambit in 1942. (Not to forget the horrendous loss of lives suffered by ANZAC, British and French troops at Gallipoli in 1915 by the folly of the same Sir Winston) At the end of WW2 the weakened European powers withdrew from the Near East, Israel was born anew, and the US set up the Shah of Iran. Through the Cold War we supported dictators around the world out of fear of the Soviets. In a master demonstration of nearsightedness, depending upon one's political affiliation, American pols blame the current turmoil on GW Bush for invading Iraq and B. Obama for withdrawing too soon. At the moment we have two presidential candidates vowing to fight ISIS to the death. It seems to me that the recent and current disruptions are the predictable outcomes of decolonization and rebellion against dictatorship. We were wrong to continue supporting Israel as its Settlement Movement spread. We were wrong on the Shah, on Iraq, and now on al Assad. In the meanwhile gobs of oil have been removed from the ground in the States and Canada (resulting in horrible pollution of the soil, water, and air, and maybe the cause of earthquakes in Oklahoma) The price of oil is falling as supply overflows. Our Vice-President, Joe Biden, reminds us frankly that ISIS is not an existential threat to our nation. We ought to get the hell out. But that is highly unlikely. No politician is willing to face the unknown immediate consequences.

JeffBC -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 12:35:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML We are about a week away from the 15th Anniversary of the attack on the NY Twin Trade Towers. According to this Article about one Trillion dollars has been spent on homeland security. Money well spent? Do you feel safer? Do you not? Why or why not? It is a lengthy article. I have read it but I am not an expert obviously, so I am more interested in your opinion. Which terrorist scenario can you imagine that would find us most vulnerable? Or if you read the article which do you agree or disagree with? I feel substantially less safe and I think the amount spent as a result of 9/11 is VASTLY more than a trillion or so when you count all our various little wars and whatnot. From my standpoint, I used to have minor concerns about terrorism and I still do. The difference is now I feel an awful lot less safe from the US government despite the fact that I'm now an expat. Before 9/11, Bush, then Obama, it never would've occurred to me to be afraid of setting foot in the US.

hot4bondage -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 1:00:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: hot4bondage TSA, warrantless wiretapping, indefinite detention, enhanced interrogation, extraordinary rendition, parallel construction--none of those made me fell safer. Surely we made improvements somewhere, but all I can think of is stronger cockpit doors. ...And a much higher likelihood of bad guys getting tackled by the other passengers, but that's a change in culture, not government. The tunnels leading into NYC have been reinforced to withstand explosives. Many container ships are now inspected at international ports of departure before they arrive here. Major cities have received armaments from DHS and intel alerts are distributed much more quickly. NYC and others have increased their counter-terrorist task forces. NYC has members of its force overseas. The FBI has grown and received a mandate to act aggressively to seek out bad guys. The Southern Border Patrol has been increased a lot. A $trillion has been spent to keep you safe. The security-information complex has grown exponentially over the last decade and a half. Doesn't all that make you feel more comfy? Have you changed your life style ~ your goings and comings ~ because of fear of impending attacks? Probably not. Right? So, you feel safe. No? Or are we just clueless about the dangers? Slumbering again? Reinforced tunnels and more container inspections sound like genuine improvements. Increased specialized units, intel and sharing intel are probably good too, as long as they have their priorities and budgets in order. I have mixed feelings about fortifying our cities. Seems like we're only a few steps away from not really being an open society anymore. Personally, I just try to keep it in perspective. Are we clueless if we sit near top-heavy furniture or if we don't run for cover during every thunderstorm? I wouldn't try to tempt fate, but I wouldn't really go out of my way to avoid them, either.

MrRodgers -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 3:33:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So an IS defeat in Iraq/Syria will more than likely cause IS to focus on attacks by sleeper cells in the West - it won't eliminate the threat. The battle may have been lost by IS but the war will rage on in a different format. It does seem reasonable to question the current strategy if it has failed to deliver any appreciable results in 15 years. Given its lack of success, surely we need to be adopting a new different strategy. Oil was discovered by a British Company in Iran in 1908. The rise of the automobile industry, the development of the airplane and the tank through WWI, and the necessity of armaments productions that lead to the spread of oil driven factories all contributed to the increasing value of oil. After WWI France and Britain carved up the Near East and added that land to their empires. Churchill desperately tried to hold the British Empire with his North African gambit in 1942. (Not to forget the horrendous loss of lives suffered by ANZAC, British and French troops at Gallipoli in 1915 by the folly of the same Sir Winston) At the end of WW2 the weakened European powers withdrew from the Near East, Israel was born anew, and the US set up the Shah of Iran. Through the Cold War we supported dictators around the world out of fear of the Soviets. In a master demonstration of nearsightedness, depending upon one's political affiliation, American pols blame the current turmoil on GW Bush for invading Iraq and B. Obama for withdrawing too soon. At the moment we have two presidential candidates vowing to fight ISIS to the death. It seems to me that the recent and current disruptions are the predictable outcomes of decolonization and rebellion against dictatorship. We were wrong to continue supporting Israel as its Settlement Movement spread. We were wrong on the Shah, on Iraq, and now on al Assad. In the meanwhile gobs of oil have been removed from the ground in the States and Canada (resulting in horrible pollution of the soil, water, and air, and maybe the cause of earthquakes in Oklahoma) The price of oil is falling as supply overflows. Our Vice-President, Joe Biden, reminds us frankly that ISIS is not an existential threat to our nation. We ought to get the hell out. But that is highly unlikely. No politician is willing to face the unknown immediate consequences. I disagree. It doesn't have anything to do with nearsightedness but rather incompetent warmongering. Signing a Status of Forces Agreement requiring the full withdrawal of U.S. military forces from Iraq on a fixed three year timeline demonstrated a real flexibility on Bush’s part. (2008) See how easy it is to be a partisan cheerleader for the guy you support then, only for the right to denigrate the guy who's left (since 2012) to clean up the resulting chaos...that they don't ? It is largely thanks to Bush’s acceptance of his own bargaining failure that Barack Obama will inherit a plausible route to successful disengagement from Iraq. Oh yea ? How quickly they forget. HERE Disastrous decisions and the first that helped create ISIS ? Bush tapped L. Paul Bremer, a former U.S ambassador and well known Reagan-era official to head it. In his first days in office Bremer issued two orders that would plunge Iraq into chaos. The first order put 50,000 civil servants of the Hussein regime out of work. The second order disbanded the Iraqi military that numbered around 500,000 people and allowed the unemployed former soldiers to keep their weapons.Dexter Filkins, a Pulitzer prize winning war correspondent who covered Iraq for The New York Times, called the dissolution of the Iraqi Army “probably the single most catastrophic decision of the American venture in Iraq.” HERE Everything one could imagine as what might be wrong with Iraq today and the Iraq/Syrian/ISIS problem and for more than 3 years, is ALL and I mean ALL the fault of GWB and his right repub political support. Isn't it so politically precious how so easy it is to blame the guy that his hands tied behind his back with the 2008 SOFA and a recalcitrant congress, that it is all now, supposed to be the new guy's fault ? ISIS is not an existential threat to the US. ISIS was immediately empowered by and logistically made possible by what GWB and the US left behind in Iraq. Getting the hell out of the ME doesn't fit the new US war-on-terror, foreign policy creed...war first, diplomacy second.

tamaka -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 6:00:15 PM)
Honestly i don't think anyone feels truly safer than we did 15 years ago because once that happened our eyes were opened to our vulnerability. Before that tragic day we didn't know what we didn't know... but suddenly, with shock & awe... we all knew. Ever since that day, anything we fear can & will be used to further enslave us, and so the beat goes on.

dcnovice -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 6:11:19 PM)
FR Honestly, my food habits place me in far more danger than any terrorist could.

sloguy02246 -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 6:21:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice FR Honestly, my food habits place me in far more danger than any terrorist could. I vote for all those people texting and watching streamed video while driving. They're the real danger to everyone's safety.

Termyn8or -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 6:36:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or Vince, EVERY foreign attack on the US has succeeded. T^T That's not true, Termy. Not according to the OP article. Do you fear any large scale jihadist attacks on the homeland again in the future? The military is not our first line of defense, is it? I don't think so. Which attacks have been prevented other than their entrapment ones by the FBI ? And I do not fear anything. First of all the odds of it coming to my doorstep are more remote than them giving me the wrong pills, which I do not take anyway. The odds of a jet airplane crashing on the house are more likely, so unless that is caused by foreign hijackers I would have to again say no. As far as the OP article goes, anyone can write anything. I could say the sky is blue, but it is not. It is pitch black. What you see is the scattering of shorter wavelength light rays from the sun. That is not the sky it is like a projection in front of it. I could also tell you that the sun will rise tomorrow but that is not true. The truth is that the Earth will turn so that your side of it faces the sun. I have prevaricated and done it very well. Courts and cops, to me they are fucking stupid. Give me one example of a foreign attack on the US that ws successfully stopped by the US government. Those rowdy Arabs my buddy beat the fucking shit out of don't count, and Citizens calling in don't count. I mean your tax dollars at work monitoring everything that actually detected and prevented an attack on US soil. I dare you to come up with even one. (in the last maybe fifty years) T^T

Termyn8or -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 6:49:13 PM)
"The chinese, in 2007 I believe shot down one of their old satellites with an ordinary off the shelf missle, no warhead. I think we should rethink ku, fu, chi, sui, ka . Our military, in terms of real war has been found to have very expensive no clothes. " That was after they put up their own separate GPS system. This also means that if a war happens they can fuck up our satellites so we do not have that recon, but they will. We cannot even build a rocket to maintain ours, we buy them from Russia ! Russia ! Russia is alot closer to China last I checked and it seems logical that you want your allies close by, not ten thousand miles away. I don't deny that the US has a good military, but they can't take on the whole world. That bitch wants to start it with Iran which will start it with Russia and we already can't handle that. And China is about ready to tell us to go fuck of over that South China Sea shit so how many troops and how much other manpower does that equal ? the Chinese already build half the shit we own. With Russian weapons engineering and their productive capabilities we are fucked. How many years did it take to get an F-35 even off the fucking ground ? Our choices suck. Trump MIGHT start the shit Clinton WILL start the shit. Bill Gates will not have to worry about Windows 11, there will be no new computers. And the Android and Apple and whatever phones, there will be no new ones of them either. We do not have the facilities to build them and when the war starts the price goes through the roof. People will have a hard time affording food. But let them go ahead. I am 56 with no kids. Do whatever you want with this third rock from the sun. T^T

vincentML -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 7:45:24 PM)
quote: Which attacks have been prevented other than their entrapment ones by the FBI ? So, not too many restrictions on the challenge, hey? I can't use the article from the OP; can't be Arabs; can't be FBI involved, which you have decreed were all entrapment. Well, fuck that. There is quite a list available. Google it yourself.

Termyn8or -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 7:51:07 PM)
Just one would suffice. T^T

vincentML -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 7:54:04 PM)
The truth is out there.

Termyn8or -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/8/2016 9:06:01 PM)
Last I heard they claimed fifty and all of them have been debunked. T^T

LadyDemura -> RE: Do You Feel Safer 15 Years Later? (9/9/2016 1:36:47 AM)
It would be much more difficult to do a 9/11 style attack, with the reinforced cockpit doors and enhanced security screening. Preventing things like San Bernardino or Orlando, or what happened in Nice, France is next to impossible. I'm surprised it took so long for things like those to happen, honestly. As long as people are being allowed to believe in religion, you are going to have people that follow the beliefs. But, we can't ban religion it's in the constitution, and Christians are decent, rational people, yeah right...

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