RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts.

RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (Full Version)

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freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/26/2016 4:37:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Improvements by such tiny margins (relatively speaking) so it's gonna take you over a century to get close is not something to be crowing about. It's a start, granted. But you need something really drastic to cut those numbers. Over 40% isn't drastic? What we need to do to bring it way down is bust up the gangs in the inner citys, that would crash our crime rate. And still we are making faster than you are. Even the person using two different numbers for our murder rates shows a minimum 40% drop, and with one set of figures he used in that post shows that when compared to the population growth is very close to 50%. Anyone who says that this is a tiny margin is an idiot. If we continue this rate of progress for the next 40 years we will have matched your rate without violating peoples rights. 40 years? And you call that progress??? I guess it is, but it's very slow progress. Compare that to what other first-world countries did. They slashed those figures to almost zero in one fell swoop. Now that's progress!! No they didn't, they traditionally had very low crime rates all along. Come on as smart as you think you are you should know that. Actually, our crime rate was pretty awful when we all had guns like the US have. And to quote your own words: "No, because it is rates, and not gross numbers that determine progress. Thus it is rates, and not gross numbers that are important" So let's see.... Assume the absolute worst rate is the 100% baseline (which is what you are comparing to). With one piece of law, it went from 100% to less than 0.1% virtually overnight. And has remained very low ever since. And for the likes of Australia, NZ, Canada, and loads of other OECD countries, the rate plumetted to almost zero by comparison. Only the US with its gun culture remains very high. And you are spouting that it'll still take 40 YEARS to catch up?? That's lame. Really really lame.

BamaD -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/26/2016 4:48:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Improvements by such tiny margins (relatively speaking) so it's gonna take you over a century to get close is not something to be crowing about. It's a start, granted. But you need something really drastic to cut those numbers. Over 40% isn't drastic? What we need to do to bring it way down is bust up the gangs in the inner citys, that would crash our crime rate. And still we are making faster than you are. Even the person using two different numbers for our murder rates shows a minimum 40% drop, and with one set of figures he used in that post shows that when compared to the population growth is very close to 50%. Anyone who says that this is a tiny margin is an idiot. If we continue this rate of progress for the next 40 years we will have matched your rate without violating peoples rights. 40 years? And you call that progress??? I guess it is, but it's very slow progress. Compare that to what other first-world countries did. They slashed those figures to almost zero in one fell swoop. Now that's progress!! No they didn't, they traditionally had very low crime rates all along. Come on as smart as you think you are you should know that. Actually, our crime rate was pretty awful when we all had guns like the US have. And to quote your own words: "No, because it is rates, and not gross numbers that determine progress. Thus it is rates, and not gross numbers that are important" So let's see.... Assume the absolute worst rate is the 100% baseline (which is what you are comparing to). With one piece of law, it went from 100% to less than 0.1% virtually overnight. And has remained very low ever since. And for the likes of Australia, NZ, Canada, and loads of other OECD countries, the rate plumetted to almost zero by comparison. Only the US with its gun culture remains very high. And you are spouting that it'll still take 40 YEARS to catch up?? That's lame. Really really lame. One lie too many. Bye

longwayhome -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/26/2016 5:09:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1 Improvements by such tiny margins (relatively speaking) so it's gonna take you over a century to get close is not something to be crowing about. It's a start, granted. But you need something really drastic to cut those numbers. Over 40% isn't drastic? What we need to do to bring it way down is bust up the gangs in the inner citys, that would crash our crime rate. And still we are making faster than you are. Even the person using two different numbers for our murder rates shows a minimum 40% drop, and with one set of figures he used in that post shows that when compared to the population growth is very close to 50%. Anyone who says that this is a tiny margin is an idiot. If we continue this rate of progress for the next 40 years we will have matched your rate without violating peoples rights. I think you are confusing rates with absolute numbers to create a conclusion which is wrong. Except for in Mexico, Chile and Israel murder rates in the rest of the OECD have more than halved in the last twenty years. US rates have also just about halved but are still at a far higher rate than everyone else. Leaving aside tiny Estonia, the difference between the group containing Mexico, Chile, Israel and the US , and the rest of the OECD is specifically the strict laws on owning guns in almost all European countries. As I always say, nothing infringes your rights quite like bullet in the head (or anywhere else for that matter). No, because it is rates, and not gross numbers that determine progress. Thus it is rates, and not gross numbers that are important. I have referred to murder *rates* throughout. According the OECD the vast majority of countries have seen their murder *rates* fall by over a half in the last twenty years, not the absolute number of murders. Yes the US rates have fallen, which is great, but not by a significantly larger proportion than most western democracies. In other words, the US is not catching up as such (unless you refer to the absolute drop rather than the proportionate drop in the murder rate, which we both know is a false premise for any argument).

longwayhome -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/26/2016 5:22:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD [Edited] No the issue is gangs and a lack of values. And the comparison needs to be made, not from perfection, but from where we were, which you refuse to do. The progress is what counts, and we have made a lot of progress. You don't seem to be concerned with progress, just with getting rid of guns, progess doesn't count unless it includes taking away gun rights. I will take your word for it that there is a problem with gangs and a lack of values. Same here in the UK, but the gangs just don't have as many guns. We don't have nice gangs over here who settle their disputes by games of chess. We have gangs with less killing capacity and so (big surprise) they kill less. The progress in reducing murder rates in the US is great news, but the biggest single factor in keeping the US with rates several times that of many OECD countries, despite that improvement, is the availability of killing machines (guns).

BamaD -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/26/2016 5:46:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD [Edited] No the issue is gangs and a lack of values. And the comparison needs to be made, not from perfection, but from where we were, which you refuse to do. The progress is what counts, and we have made a lot of progress. You don't seem to be concerned with progress, just with getting rid of guns, progess doesn't count unless it includes taking away gun rights. I will take your word for it that there is a problem with gangs and a lack of values. Same here in the UK, but the gangs just don't have as many guns. We don't have nice gangs over here who settle their disputes by games of chess. We have gangs with less killing capacity and so (big surprise) they kill less. The progress in reducing murder rates in the US is great news, but the biggest single factor in keeping the US with rates several times that of many OECD countries, despite that improvement, is the availability of killing machines (guns). No it is the willingness to kill. Our gangs will kill for looking at them. They kill for wearing the wrong color shirt. They kill for initiation. They kill six people in a yard because they think one of them has disrespected them. The chief of police says that their crime problem comes down to about 1400 hard core gangbangers. Clean that up and, according to him, 75% or more of their crime disapears. Cities near Chicago, including the 2nd largest city in Ill have only the gun laws imposed on them by the Feds and the state, and a lower murder rate than you have. You never hear about this because nobody in your media, and very few in ours will admitt to it, they try to tell us that Chicago's crime problem is because of the laws in those other cities but won't tell us why those places have so much less crime.

longwayhome -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 12:31:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD [Edited] No the issue is gangs and a lack of values. And the comparison needs to be made, not from perfection, but from where we were, which you refuse to do. The progress is what counts, and we have made a lot of progress. You don't seem to be concerned with progress, just with getting rid of guns, progess doesn't count unless it includes taking away gun rights. I will take your word for it that there is a problem with gangs and a lack of values. Same here in the UK, but the gangs just don't have as many guns. We don't have nice gangs over here who settle their disputes by games of chess. We have gangs with less killing capacity and so (big surprise) they kill less. The progress in reducing murder rates in the US is great news, but the biggest single factor in keeping the US with rates several times that of many OECD countries, despite that improvement, is the availability of killing machines (guns). No it is the willingness to kill. Our gangs will kill for looking at them. They kill for wearing the wrong color shirt. They kill for initiation. They kill six people in a yard because they think one of them has disrespected them. The chief of police says that their crime problem comes down to about 1400 hard core gangbangers. Clean that up and, according to him, 75% or more of their crime disapears. Cities near Chicago, including the 2nd largest city in Ill have only the gun laws imposed on them by the Feds and the state, and a lower murder rate than you have. You never hear about this because nobody in your media, and very few in ours will admit to it, they try to tell us that Chicago's crime problem is because of the laws in those other cities but won't tell us why those places have so much less crime. Okay, I shouldn't really argue the figures any more here because I'm not sure it's not really progressing the discussion, but for what it's worth let's have a go. The murder rate figures are averages so individual US states probably have counties with crime rates as low as the UK average. The logic however is that the UK would also have counties with lower murder rates than the UK average, which it certainly does. There are counties (and other local authorities areas) in the UK, who have years without a single murder. I absolutely agree with you sure that great strides have been made in the US on violent crime, despite the picture painted by Donald Trump last night. It is just that the existence of so many guns in your society has an effect on how many people die (i.e. the rate per 100,000). As you say both the bad guys and the good guys have guns. That's what makes dealing with it so difficult and something I wouldn't want to express a view on as an outsider.

BamaD -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:03:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD [Edited] No the issue is gangs and a lack of values. And the comparison needs to be made, not from perfection, but from where we were, which you refuse to do. The progress is what counts, and we have made a lot of progress. You don't seem to be concerned with progress, just with getting rid of guns, progess doesn't count unless it includes taking away gun rights. I will take your word for it that there is a problem with gangs and a lack of values. Same here in the UK, but the gangs just don't have as many guns. We don't have nice gangs over here who settle their disputes by games of chess. We have gangs with less killing capacity and so (big surprise) they kill less. The progress in reducing murder rates in the US is great news, but the biggest single factor in keeping the US with rates several times that of many OECD countries, despite that improvement, is the availability of killing machines (guns). No it is the willingness to kill. Our gangs will kill for looking at them. They kill for wearing the wrong color shirt. They kill for initiation. They kill six people in a yard because they think one of them has disrespected them. The chief of police says that their crime problem comes down to about 1400 hard core gangbangers. Clean that up and, according to him, 75% or more of their crime disapears. Cities near Chicago, including the 2nd largest city in Ill have only the gun laws imposed on them by the Feds and the state, and a lower murder rate than you have. You never hear about this because nobody in your media, and very few in ours will admit to it, they try to tell us that Chicago's crime problem is because of the laws in those other cities but won't tell us why those places have so much less crime. Okay, I shouldn't really argue the figures any more here because I'm not sure it's not really progressing the discussion, but for what it's worth let's have a go. The murder rate figures are averages so individual US states probably have counties with crime rates as low as the UK average. The logic however is that the UK would also have counties with lower murder rates than the UK average, which it certainly does. There are counties (and other local authorities areas) in the UK, who have years without a single murder. I absolutely agree with you sure that great strides have been made in the US on violent crime, despite the picture painted by Donald Trump last night. It is just that the existence of so many guns in your society has an effect on how many people die (i.e. the rate per 100,000). As you say both the bad guys and the good guys have guns. That's what makes dealing with it so difficult and something I wouldn't want to express a view on as an outsider. Your last statement is something most outsiders can't grasp. I do not advocate that the UK adopt our system any more than I appriciate youall telling us to adopt yours. The greatest pressure we have had added to our crime problem is personafied by BLM. They are based on disrespect for the police, and by extension the law. We have leaders ordering the police into policies/situations that assure unneeded conflict. The more times this happens the more people figure that if the government is enforcing stupid laws, see the loosy law that lead to the Garner case. This was of course followed by the people "standing up" for the underprivilaged by overcharging to the point there was no chance of conviction. Same thing in Baltimore. On top of that the mayor having the cops stand down and giving the rioters "room to destroy". When the mayor gives you freedom to loot one day it is hard to say you shouldn't steal the next. After the riots in Baltimore the breakdown lead to record murders in the city. It is almost as if these "leaders" are trying to break down society.

Termyn8or -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:13:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD [Edited] No the issue is gangs and a lack of values. And the comparison needs to be made, not from perfection, but from where we were, which you refuse to do. The progress is what counts, and we have made a lot of progress. You don't seem to be concerned with progress, just with getting rid of guns, progess doesn't count unless it includes taking away gun rights. I will take your word for it that there is a problem with gangs and a lack of values. Same here in the UK, but the gangs just don't have as many guns. We don't have nice gangs over here who settle their disputes by games of chess. We have gangs with less killing capacity and so (big surprise) they kill less. The progress in reducing murder rates in the US is great news, but the biggest single factor in keeping the US with rates several times that of many OECD countries, despite that improvement, is the availability of killing machines (guns). No it is the willingness to kill. Our gangs will kill for looking at them. They kill for wearing the wrong color shirt. They kill for initiation. They kill six people in a yard because they think one of them has disrespected them. The chief of police says that their crime problem comes down to about 1400 hard core gangbangers. Clean that up and, according to him, 75% or more of their crime disapears. Cities near Chicago, including the 2nd largest city in Ill have only the gun laws imposed on them by the Feds and the state, and a lower murder rate than you have. You never hear about this because nobody in your media, and very few in ours will admitt to it, they try to tell us that Chicago's crime problem is because of the laws in those other cities but won't tell us why those places have so much less crime. And of course they'll turn in their guns when the government says so. T^T

Termyn8or -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:16:32 AM)
"Same thing in Baltimore. On top of that the mayor having the cops stand down and giving the rioters "room to destroy". " I never want to be in that state, let alone city. Know why ? T^T

BamaD -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:25:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "Same thing in Baltimore. On top of that the mayor having the cops stand down and giving the rioters "room to destroy". " I never want to be in that state, let alone city. Know why ? T^T Got an idea, I spent 4 years at FT Meade, half way between DC and Baltimore.

thompsonx -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:57:57 AM)
ORIGINAL: BamaD No the issue is gangs and a lack of values. There is that "gang" (los angeles police department) that was taken over by the doj because they were considered "an on going criminal conspiracy". Is that the gang you were referencing as having no values? Or is it the los angeles county sherrifs department which is about to be taken over by the doj for the same reason?

longwayhome -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 5:06:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD [Edited] No the issue is gangs and a lack of values. And the comparison needs to be made, not from perfection, but from where we were, which you refuse to do. The progress is what counts, and we have made a lot of progress. You don't seem to be concerned with progress, just with getting rid of guns, progess doesn't count unless it includes taking away gun rights. I will take your word for it that there is a problem with gangs and a lack of values. Same here in the UK, but the gangs just don't have as many guns. We don't have nice gangs over here who settle their disputes by games of chess. We have gangs with less killing capacity and so (big surprise) they kill less. The progress in reducing murder rates in the US is great news, but the biggest single factor in keeping the US with rates several times that of many OECD countries, despite that improvement, is the availability of killing machines (guns). No it is the willingness to kill. Our gangs will kill for looking at them. They kill for wearing the wrong color shirt. They kill for initiation. They kill six people in a yard because they think one of them has disrespected them. The chief of police says that their crime problem comes down to about 1400 hard core gangbangers. Clean that up and, according to him, 75% or more of their crime disapears. Cities near Chicago, including the 2nd largest city in Ill have only the gun laws imposed on them by the Feds and the state, and a lower murder rate than you have. You never hear about this because nobody in your media, and very few in ours will admit to it, they try to tell us that Chicago's crime problem is because of the laws in those other cities but won't tell us why those places have so much less crime. Okay, I shouldn't really argue the figures any more here because I'm not sure it's not really progressing the discussion, but for what it's worth let's have a go. The murder rate figures are averages so individual US states probably have counties with crime rates as low as the UK average. The logic however is that the UK would also have counties with lower murder rates than the UK average, which it certainly does. There are counties (and other local authorities areas) in the UK, who have years without a single murder. I absolutely agree with you sure that great strides have been made in the US on violent crime, despite the picture painted by Donald Trump last night. It is just that the existence of so many guns in your society has an effect on how many people die (i.e. the rate per 100,000). As you say both the bad guys and the good guys have guns. That's what makes dealing with it so difficult and something I wouldn't want to express a view on as an outsider. Your last statement is something most outsiders can't grasp. I do not advocate that the UK adopt our system any more than I appriciate youall telling us to adopt yours. The greatest pressure we have had added to our crime problem is personafied by BLM. They are based on disrespect for the police, and by extension the law. We have leaders ordering the police into policies/situations that assure unneeded conflict. The more times this happens the more people figure that if the government is enforcing stupid laws, see the loosy law that lead to the Garner case. This was of course followed by the people "standing up" for the underprivilaged by overcharging to the point there was no chance of conviction. Same thing in Baltimore. On top of that the mayor having the cops stand down and giving the rioters "room to destroy". When the mayor gives you freedom to loot one day it is hard to say you shouldn't steal the next. After the riots in Baltimore the breakdown lead to record murders in the city. It is almost as if these "leaders" are trying to break down society. Honestly, I'm not telling you to do anything. Just expressing my view that widespread gun ownership contributes to killings rather than avoids them, and looking at evidence from elsewhere in the world to illustrate it. Although we are talking about this in relation to the US, it is a big news story all round the world. You guys have to decide how to balance your freedoms with your crime rate. It's a tough issue because going from having a gun culture to a society where people don't carry guns is a much harder journey than the other way round. Decommissioning weapons after the conflict in Northern Ireland was not easy and that was with very specific groups rather than the "general" public. I'm glad it's hard to get hold of a gun in the UK, but that comes with restrictions on people who would never misuse a gun. If the US decides that the freedom to own and carry guns is more important, you will need to find a solution to the consequences of public gun ownership which other countries have struggled to do without restrictions on gun ownership. It's a difficult question with no easy solution.

mnottertail -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 6:47:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "Same thing in Baltimore. On top of that the mayor having the cops stand down and giving the rioters "room to destroy". " I never want to be in that state, let alone city. Know why ? T^T Got an idea, I spent 4 years at FT Meade, half way between DC and Baltimore. You get a purple heart for your papercuts welfare patient, and RIFmeister?

Nnanji -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:17:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: longwayhome quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD [Edited] No the issue is gangs and a lack of values. And the comparison needs to be made, not from perfection, but from where we were, which you refuse to do. The progress is what counts, and we have made a lot of progress. You don't seem to be concerned with progress, just with getting rid of guns, progess doesn't count unless it includes taking away gun rights. I will take your word for it that there is a problem with gangs and a lack of values. Same here in the UK, but the gangs just don't have as many guns. We don't have nice gangs over here who settle their disputes by games of chess. We have gangs with less killing capacity and so (big surprise) they kill less. The progress in reducing murder rates in the US is great news, but the biggest single factor in keeping the US with rates several times that of many OECD countries, despite that improvement, is the availability of killing machines (guns). You don't have to take his word for it you can google it. Leave inner city gang murders from Chicago, Detroit, DC, and New Orleans out of the U.S. Stats and our statistics go from nearly the bottom to almost the top. It's easy to google if you really want to argue from a reasonable perspective.

Nnanji -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:20:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "Same thing in Baltimore. On top of that the mayor having the cops stand down and giving the rioters "room to destroy". " I never want to be in that state, let alone city. Know why ? T^T Got an idea, I spent 4 years at FT Meade, half way between DC and Baltimore. You get a purple heart for your papercuts welfare patient, and RIFmeister? Undertail, you always add so much to a conversation.

bounty44 -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:26:20 PM)
he's a vulgar and malevolent pathetic troll devoid of human decency.

mnottertail -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:27:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nnanji quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or "Same thing in Baltimore. On top of that the mayor having the cops stand down and giving the rioters "room to destroy". " I never want to be in that state, let alone city. Know why ? T^T Got an idea, I spent 4 years at FT Meade, half way between DC and Baltimore. You get a purple heart for your papercuts welfare patient, and RIFmeister? Undertail, you always add so much to a conversation. Nugefelcher, you never add to a conversation.

mnottertail -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:29:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 he's a vulgar and malevolent pathetic troll devoid of human decency. you are a retarded felcher as fucking imbecilic as they come and devoid of any decency a shitstain on the sidewalk on your best day, shitgobbler.

Nnanji -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 4:34:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 he's a vulgar and malevolent pathetic troll devoid of human decency. you are a retarded felcher as fucking imbecilic as they come and devoid of any decency a shitstain on the sidewalk on your best day, shitgobbler. Bounty, he is free entertainment. Lol.

BamaD -> RE: Alright, I am a gun owner, but even I think this is nuts. (9/27/2016 5:13:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bounty44 he's a vulgar and malevolent pathetic troll devoid of human decency. You are too vauge, how do you really feel about him?

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