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RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 12:22:43 AM   
scratchingpost


Posts: 231
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline 		There is so much I wanted to say, I wrote and rewrote a reply, suddenly I realized, One thing that would have could have made all the difference in the world when I served as slave and My Master made a huge error was to hear the words, " I am sorry I was wrong let Me fix it" came to mind. To have heard such words from My pillar of strength the One I trusted and exaulted beyond all others would have endeared Me further and pushed Me deeper into a submissive state than ever. It would have shown a strength beyond all strengths to see such a display of confidence admit a mistake and see the devotion to repair it. I think in that moment a power exchange of such magnitude would have occurred and all walls broken down and a trust built upon it paralleled to no other.

While submissives are taught to obey to apologize beg forgiveness and bear punishments for their flaws faults and errors as well as disobedience...when their Owners error and willingly admit their flaws it shows a true power and strengthens and fortifies a relationship. At least that is My humble opinion.

_____________________________

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purrrs kitty
(=^.^=)
www.misskittys-scratchingpost.com

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 1:35:33 AM   
MzMinx


Posts: 277
Joined: 12/26/2005
Status: offline 		Mistakes happen .... In fact I spend time explaining to  submissives/slaves that  they do happen .... trying to break that illusion some have that a dominant is perfect

Trust needs to flow from who I am ..not some idealised image in their heads .... they need to believe  and  trust in me  ....knowing I may make a mistake  but I will do everything in my power to acknowlege, understand  and correct an  error.

Communication  is  once again a prime requirment

They  need to be comfortable in bringing their views thoughts and feelings  includeing that they think I have made a mistake or they feel uncomfortable or scared  or what ever.

When we deal with an actual mistake I  try and take into account what  type of mistake... was it a mistake in skill or technigue  ... was it a mistake in the way I think of something compared to someone else  ... or did i totally get something wrong ... was it something which effects their ability to trust me.. did i do it  because I didnt notice its importance... or did i do it from  selfishness etc


I always try and own my part of it .. whether that be 100%  or whatever  ... Which includes looking at myself for my own mistakes or misteps, I dont wait for a submissive to tell me  although it is true I dont always see them.

I not only share  my appologies ..... but also try and share what I have learned, and why it wont happen again or how it will be mitigated. 

To me it is moments like these  that make the relationship .... that increase the trust as they increase the  comunication and understanding .  They show that problems can be worked through, I think they can even show perfectionists submissives *grins*  that mistakes happen and can be delt with  and  things  are still ok


interesting question.... 

< Message edited by MzMinx -- 7/23/2006 1:36:06 AM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 2:36:17 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Doms know that subs will forgive them in any case and that is what is delicate. In strong relationships the apology is not done as bargaining to keep the sub, but is done because the Dom wants the sub to have the respect that the apology gives. The sub knows the Dom didn’t have to apologize and that respect from the Dom strengthens the relationship, far outweighing the effects of the bad deed.  

_____________________________

You can paint a cinder block bright pastel pink, but it's still a cinder block. (By Me.)

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 4:29:55 AM   
LeatherBentOne


Posts: 469
Joined: 9/27/2005
Status: offline 		Most of the time, I use a check and balance system to be fair and to be sure that any anger I have has time to pass before I administer punishment to determine if my sub's made an honest mistake or has deliberately defied me.  Here's a hypothetical:

I state my view within a 5 minute context, she states hers, we remain silent for 5 minutes, then take another 5 minutes to discuss if and how punishment is needed, then I evaluate the situation for another 5 minutes (silently) and come up with a remedy should my displeasure orginate from her honest mistake.  When it does, I restructure, and in the case of her being late due to traffic from construction, I would instruct her to build in a cushion of 15-20 minutes in her departure time, just in case she's unable to call me to tell me why she's going to be late. 

If she is late due to her own making, that would require punishment, something monotonous and boring that would address her defiance rather than satisfy her love of pain.  I might require her to drive back and forth perhaps 5 times, with a time cushion intact, ring my doorbell each time without me answering it, then turn around and go home without seeing me that day.  Somehow, I dont think she'd ever want to be late again for no justifiable reason and/or without calling.

Although Im not into micromanagement per se, I'm a firm believer and try to always enforce my expectations, lest they and eventually I be taken lightly.  As juliaoceania has stated in her post:  A Dominant who disciplinee wisely, rarely need to discipline at all.

LeatherBentOne

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 4:44:26 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		I guess I am just totally the weirdo and odd one out on this question but I have not experienced the Owner making a mistake with me.  Looking back at our life together I can see times I wish things went differently but that is with the advantage of hindsight. I don't see how he could be making a mistake without me also making a mistake at the same time. Maybe it is my optimistic personality but I don't see things in that light. If it were ever to happen I wouldn't worry about it because I would trust him to fix it and make everything better.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 5:53:03 AM   
MsIncognito


Posts: 742
Joined: 5/24/2005
Status: offline 		No one is perfect and I don't expect a dominant to be perfect. However, I do see this type of situation as an indication of the dominant's true character and watch closely to see how they handle it. What I consider to be the 'best' way to handle a situation like this involves four steps:

1. Recognition/admission of the error
2. Apology
3. Steps to rectify the situation (depending on the mistake that was made and the consequences of that mistake this may or may not be necessary)
4. Behaviour change

One thing I've noticed is that people in general (not just dominants) have a very hard time apologizing without making justifications or excuses. IMO, an apology is simple and straight forward (i.e. I realize I was wrong and I apologize for what happened as a result) and not a convoluted litany of excuses and blame shifting (I realize I was wrong and I apologize for what happened as a result but you know, I was really under stress at that point and you exacerbated that by requesting that I.....).  IMO, anytime there's a "but" in an apology, that pretty much negates anything that came before the "but." 

Ultimately what I want to see is behaviour change. Someone who apologizes for doing something and then repeatedly does the same thing and figures they can just apologize again each time they do it isn't really sorry as far as I'm concerned. A sincere "I'm sorry" implies not repeating the hurtful/harmful actions again.

If the dominant isn't able to apologize without excuses and blame shifting or if they don't make an effort to not repeat the harmful/hurtful behaviour then I see the former as a serious character flaw and the latter as lack of sincerity. In these situations I re-evaluate whether I really want to transfer authority to someone like this.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 6:17:03 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
Do you deal with your mistakes that are seen the eyes of your submissive?  Also, what are you feelings when you make this mistake?  What are you looking for from your submissive at these times? 


Not quite clear as to what you are looking for Kom, but I *THINK* you are refering to times where the girl percieves something to be a mistake but where the Dom hasn't realised it maybe one?

This is one area where the girls confidence in me is at an absolute premium. She is already encouraged to have open communication, express her thoughts and opinions even/especialy where they contradict mine. Many an interesting conversation can begin from just that diffrent point of view on a subject, whatever the subject maybe.

However, a diffrent PoV on a subject is a whole diffrent ballgame to her telling her Master that she thinks he has made a mistake. (If I already know I've made a mistake then she won't need to raise it... *I* will!).

Appropriate behaviour in such a case will depend on context..... If it is something I am about to do "Master, can I speak with you in private? Its important" Is quite appropriate. I can then take her to one side and she can let me know why she thinks whatever it is maybe a mistake..... That gives me fuller relivant information on which to make my decision as to wether I wish to continue with the course of action, but if I see her point and *I* believe it to be a mistake then my girl has done me a great service and helped me avoid making an arse of myself.

If it is something already done, then often I notice something is wrong with my girl and make time but otherwise I expect her to raise the matter reasonably soon at an appropriate moment. Wether I have made a mistake or not, there IS an issue needing resolving.

Sometimes all that is needed is for her to understand WHY I took the actions I did, this builds trust from her in the fact that I do more often than not make valid decisions for good reason.

Other times, yep, I am human, maybe I fucked up... I don't like fucking up, who does, but I take responcibility for my fuck ups. I am glad she raised it so I can deal with it, fix it where I can (including apologise where apropriate) and more importantly try not to repeat it. This is also a 'service', helping Me to maintain the standards I expect of myself as well as a service to the relationship as a whole.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 6:36:47 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		Hello KoM,

My Master simply has not made any *mistakes*.... Not with me or involving me and mine........I know that likely sounds ridiculous but it's the case.

I know he's human and MUST make some, somewhere, but I've never witnessed them in regard to myself or the relationship that we share.

I find it difficult to imagine how he COULD do so....being the person that he is and in the context of the way we have always related......; he'd have to change his character in a major way.

I'm not *blinded by lurve* either.... and I'm not an *innocent* and I have known him for a long time, through some painful, weird, crazy times. There simply has never been an occasion when he hasn't behaved in my best interests or an occasion where I've ever doubted that that is the case, where he's hurt me, or fucked up in any way regarding his dealings with me.

I'm aware that this could sound like some poor deluded soul in the clutches of someone who's managed to convince me that he's perfect.......lol

( I'm now wondering what it'd be like if he DID and how we'd both react....lol)

Regards, agirl





(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 6:48:30 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
My Master simply has not made any *mistakes*.... Not with me or involving me and mine........I know that likely sounds ridiculous but it's the case.


Doesn't sound ridiculous to me. helen would likely say the same thing of me... however we are measuring diffrent things and from diffrent perspectives. There are a grand total of two occassions where I made a mistake... from MY PoV since collaring her. She doesn't regard either as such, *I* do.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 7:54:50 AM   
mellian


Posts: 211
Joined: 9/6/2004
Status: offline 		Really depends on the mistake. If something in general and not a big deal, I may just advise her of it as no human being are perfect or has all the answers, and I can't see the Domme make all of the decisions without some input from me, or on things I specialize and know about which the Domme may not.

As for relationship mistakes, well that is bound to happen and best way to deal with it is to communicate with the Domme about it and work on not doing it again or improve. If it is something major like cheating or total turn off or totally changing how I see the Domme, peacefully work on dissolving the relationship.

If a Domme throws a fit whenever I communicate any mistakes or problems that were made by them, then it shows they are not for me and I leave.

-mellian


_____________________________

Since my pic link doesn't work, here is my profile:

http://www.collarme.com/bdsm/v/50276/details.htm

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 8:07:44 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		LeatherBentOne,
Thanks for your reply.  I don't have a cell phone so I couldn't call him.  And I knew about and considered the construction zone, but my error was assuming because it was a  weekend they would not be working.  As I mentioned, I was satisfied with our discussion and after that time, took a different route to avoid delays.
My question remains however; does a dominant prefer the submissive request a chance to explain, or was it proper that I kept silent until later? 


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to LeatherBentOne)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 8:15:18 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
My Master simply has not made any *mistakes*.... Not with me or involving me and mine........I know that likely sounds ridiculous but it's the case.


Doesn't sound ridiculous to me. helen would likely say the same thing of me... however we are measuring diffrent things and from diffrent perspectives. There are a grand total of two occassions where I made a mistake... from MY PoV since collaring her. She doesn't regard either as such, *I* do.



I have been trying to actually think how he could *make a mistake*....which led me to  *what IS a mistake?*. What would *I* regard as a mistake? and *What would HE regard as a mistake?*

I have no concrete ideas on that.

I know that if HE thought and knew he'd made a mistake he'd be the very first one to speak of it.

I think it's just the perception we have on *mistakes*.......I don't see mistakes as doing something *wrong* ....I see them as *mishaps*, maybe * things we could have done better in different circumstances*..........

What IS a mistake?

agirl



(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 8:37:28 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl
I know that if HE thought and knew he'd made a mistake he'd be the very first one to speak of it.

In both cases I WAS the first to raise the matter

quote:

I think it's just the perception we have on *mistakes*.......I don't see mistakes as doing something *wrong* ....I see them as *mishaps*, maybe * things we could have done better in different circumstances*..........

What IS a mistake?


That is how helen sees them. Mishaps, however I am somewhat a perfectionist when it comes to my own actions especialy in regards to my girl. Both things where ones that I SHOULD have done better. I let myself down, I let her down. Neither are that big a deal in the longer term scheme of things, but I expect 100% effort from her, why should I allow myself anything less than 100%. They where mistakes and errors of judgement, not something I am in the habit of doing. I apologised.



_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 9:06:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

My question remains however; does a dominant prefer the submissive request a chance to explain, or was it proper that I kept silent until later? 


catize,
Sitting here with beth drinking our Sunday morning coffee while browsing though the Sunday papers, and CM we pondered your first post in this thread. When we say you reduce it to one question it correlated with the question we had. A dominant always assumes that the submissive is avoiding punishment. Punishment should be serious enough and considered failure. It's never part of any play. Causes for punishment should be clear and consequence pragmatic. You were late therefore punishment should be forthcoming. Although the Master ultimately has the decision regarding the timing and intensity.

Would any explanation change that? Was it a route often taken by both of you where construction was ongoing? I differentiate between action of omission versus commission. Committing is a deliberate act and is an aggressive act. Was your thought; "Damn I should have left earlier because they are doing construction today, but oh well Master will have to understand." Or was it; "I'm leaving way early Master will be happy!", only to be delayed by unknown factors?

Those questions come into play with my position regarding punishment. To be effective as a punishment I need to know. To know I need to discuss, prior to punishment. When we run into a situation regarding punishment I know whether it's a result of commission or omission prior to correction. You see, when I say punishment indicates failure I don't identify that failure solely with the slave. A Master also fails when punishment is required. Did my rule set my slave up for failure? Prior to any punishment I know the cause and it affects the effect.

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 9:42:47 AM   
storms


Posts: 3
Joined: 11/28/2004
Status: offline 		Preview This preview windows does not show attachments var form1 = opener.document.postform var checkedindex if (form1.msgIcons){ for (var i=0; i ") if (form1.subject) document.write (""+form1.subject.value.replace(/\/gi,">")+"
") RE: When We Are Wrong!
I’ve argued this topic countless times and it frustrates me to no-end that there are some that categorically disagree with me on this.

Being a Master/Dom does not:
- equate to being perfect,
- mean we are categorically right,
- mean that we are gods,
- mean that we are infallible,
- etc

If one, Master/Dom or sub/slave, can not admit that they’ve made a mistake or that they are wrong, then they are being ignorant.

The question, as a Master, is how we handle these situations. It isn’t rocket science, in fact to me it’s pretty straight forward; You admit that there was an error and correct this issue.

Having the belief that we are perfect and don’t make mistakes results in a huge disservice to themselves and the person that they are involved with. In time if this line of thinking continues and mistakes are made, never properly addressed and rectified, the submissive will eventual lose respect and faith in you, who you are and your ability to correctly lead the relationship. Resentment will surely set in and given enough time, will completely erode the dynamics of the relationship to the point where the relationship itself will implode.

The cornerstone to any true relationship, BDSM, vanilla or whatnot, is respect and communication. Without these you really don’t have anything of true substance.

To answer the question as to how these situations are handled is a matter of choice. For me, seeing as communication is paramount, I insist that my girl keeps an active journal where all thoughts, feelings, concerns, etc. are documented.

This journal for the most part is hers to express, without fear of consequence, anything that she sees fit to express. With her doing this I have the opportunity to read and understand where she is coming from.

If she believes I have errored she is more than welcome to express and communicated this opinion here to me in her journal. (There’s a possibility that I have and have done so without realizing it.) By doing so the lines of communication and full disclosure is forthright, and essence of always showing the utmost of respect is still intact.

At this point it up to me as her Master to handle her concern in a positive, direct and sincere manner, and by doing so, it avoids the emergence of resentment and possible erosion of the foundation which the relationship is based on.

In short, admitting the mistakes when made and, where possible, take the action necessary to rectify it is the only true recourse one should take. Doing these things does not in any way suggest or mean that I am not in control or that I am not a Master....if anything I believe that it does the exact opposite.
 

< Message edited by storms -- 7/23/2006 9:52:42 AM >

(in reply to catize)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 10:26:13 AM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Would any explanation change that? Was it a route often taken by both of you where construction was ongoing? I differentiate between action of omission versus commission. Committing is a deliberate act and is an aggressive act. Was your thought; "Damn I should have left earlier because they are doing construction today, but oh well Master will have to understand." Or was it; "I'm leaving way early Master will be happy!", only to be delayed by unknown factors?  


To be prompt is a trait I have in all facets of my life.  I usually am early, then sit and wait for others to show up. 
In this case, I left early as is my habit, yes it was a known construction site but they had never worked on weekends before (or since,lol ).  No, I did not think "Master will need to understand", I was concerned about my inability to get there on time.

quote:

A dominant always assumes that the submissive is avoiding punishment. Punishment should be serious enough and considered failure. It's never part of any play. 
 

As I said in my original post, we had discussed this in the beginning of our relationship.  I too see punishment as failure and prefer to conduct myself in a manner that makes it unnecessary.  And I agree, if punishment is exacted, part of my distress with it is that I have put the dominant in a position that he would prefer to avoid as well. 

quote:

Prior to any punishment I know the cause and it affects the effect. 


He admitted he had not thought it out thoroughly, and as our discussion led to some modifications on both our parts, the end result was positive. 


_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: When We Are Wrong! - 7/23/2006 6:04:38 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		Mistakes, errors in judgment, things that could have been done differently...however we want to coin it, they are dealt with quickly and we move on.

When I err, if it is something he would not otherwise know about, I tell him of it.  To do otherwise would be a lie.  When I bring it to him, I do so with my "homework" done - having thought through why and how the error occurred.  Sometimes he administers punishment, and sometimes it is worked through in conversation.  It depends on the crime, so to speak  If my error was significant, I tend to feel pretty guilty about it.  Master believes I need punishment for such things so that I can move on when it is time to move on.  I agree.

Master is not infallible.  If I feel something he has said or done has hurt me, I will tell him my thoughts and feelings about how whatever occurred has affected me.  Gone are my days of "You hurt me!!! waaaa" as I have learned to express myself a little better about such things...heh.  Typically I haven't seen the big picture that he sees, so I am not so quick to decide that whatever it was he did was a mistake.  So, I tell him my thoughts and feelings, and he corrects the direction of my thinking, if he feels it's necessary. 

I know he is human and therefore imperfect.  And I know there are things which have occurred which he has viewed as a mistake on his part.  The thing is, nothing has ended up being an unmendable error.  If a mistake was made and recognized, he changes the course of direction and we move on and grow from it.  In either case - his error or mine - we become stronger for it in the end.  Neither of us holds on to things we may feel were "wrong."  It would serve no purpose but to weaken the relationship.   If I trust Master completely, then in that, I trust he may make decisions in error.  The overwhelming majority of the time, he is dead on in his decisions, so if there are one or two here and there which end up causing me pain, who am I to carry on about it?  It becomes my job to let go of it, accept what is, and serve.  If he feels he is wrong about something, he fixes it.  If he feels he was right about it, then it is because he sees the bigger picture which I don't see.  Either way, we move on. 

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 37
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