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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/1/2006 2:36:41 PM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		It just wouldn't be a Tuesday, without a little bit of character assassination.

(in reply to EnglishDomNW)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/1/2006 3:28:58 PM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW
quote:

ORIGINAL: amastermind
ok.  So you are buying the stupid disproportional response argument.

And this is a "stupid argument" why?  Practically everyone outside of Israel and the Jewish-run media of America says it's exactly that.

The appropriate response would be kidnapping a couple of junior Hezbollah members and while "negotiating" lobbing a few antique rockets every day into Lebanon. That would have been okay by you?

This is a "smart argument" why?

How clearly do you need it laid out?

Did Israel just destroy Hezbollah?  I think it probably increased its supporters a thousandfold

If you're one of the Fathers of the kids killed in Lebanon, or the husband or brother of a woman killed, are you likely to say "Oh well, Israel was right"?  Of course you're not. 

They're going to support - and probably actively join - whoever is likely to hit Israel hardest. 

And guess who that is?


quote:

You know, there are times I wish there were other intelligent people on here.  It gets lonely on my own.


Mr Mensa,
Please answer slowly for us less intelligent.


I'm not sure I have that much time.

quote:



Considering the documented Israel withdraw from Lebanon  in 2000 didn't lessen the activity or membership of Hezbollah; and you position is the attacks on Hezbollah won't accomplish that either. What does your superior intellect recommend? 



Where did I suggest it did?  I didn't say "Withdrawal will lessen Hezbollah's membership", I said "Flattening Lebanon will increase it". 
quote:



While you are educating us, perhaps you can name one school, hospital, highway, or even a rest stop in the desert that was constructed with the $85 Million per year the US has given the PLO since 1993.


I'm not sure where I ever made a single assertion to the contrary.   You just tossed this in here via assumption even though it had nothing to do with what I stated.
quote:



Source: http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/45198.pdf

quote:

In 1982 Israel launched an offensive into southern Lebanon in order to suppress the PLO entrenched there. In June 1985, Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres ordered a unilateral withdrawal of most of Israel's troops from Lebanon, leaving only a small residual Israeli force and an Israeli-supported Lebanese militia in a "security zone," a 15 km wide strip of land paralleling the border.

The May 2000 decision to unilaterally end control of the Lebanon security zone was forced on Israel by the relentless stream of casualties inflicted on its forces by Hezbollah's low-intensity guerrilla campaign. When then-Prime Minister Ehud Barak


The same Ehud Barak that stated he'd "join a terrorist organisation" when asked what he'd do if he had been born Palestinian?

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 8/1/2006 3:33:32 PM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 1:58:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Considering the documented Israel withdraw from Lebanon  in 2000 didn't lessen the activity or membership of Hezbollah; and you position is the attacks on Hezbollah won't accomplish that either. What does your superior intellect recommend? 

While you are educating us, perhaps you can name one school, hospital, highway, or even a rest stop in the desert that was constructed with the $85 Million per year the US has given the PLO since 1993.


Israel has destroyed most of the infrastructure of the Palestinians and that is why you will find difficulty in finding a school. As a EU taxpayer I am pretty pissed that the hospitals, schools, administration buildings we have paid for have all been destroyed by fits of Israeli wrath.

Israel withdrew from Lebanon because its economy was suffering and sitting in Lebanon was hurting its military, not because it wanted peace and addressed the outstanding issues that would bring peace. It was that occupation that created Hezzbollah so its withdrawal wasn't going to make it instantly go away. Israel might destroy Hezzbollah and should with the enormous hi-tech American equiped military machine it has but it will only create another Hezzbollah in the proccess.

Even Tony Blair has had a vision on the road to Damascus, though his thinking is simplistic, he realises that the current situation is only creating more terrorism down the road and not solving the problem or making Israel more secure.

The only way to unravel the middle east from the chaos and attain peace is to address legitimate issues of complaint. Israel simply withdrawing from terroritories and controling the borders of those territories like they are concentration camps are not peaceful withdrawal. It is a hope to contain a problem they created without addressing the underlying issues.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 8/2/2006 2:02:59 AM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 5:02:47 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		The onus has to be on a solution as concentrating on who did what in 1969 or 1997 is fruitless because both sides can point to varying levels of murder committed by the other and around in circles it will go. It is easy to get lost in the cycle of violence and the wise move would be for a geniune attempt to agree land borders/concessions and attempt to consign to history the problems of the past.

The obvious problem with this is that we do not have the Governments with the will to do this. Northern Ireland went around in circles for decades (with both sides appearing to have a case) but there was a marked improvement when Governments with a will to improve the situation became involved and looked to solutions rather than concentrating on certain events/attrocities in a spiral of violence.

Regards

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 6:26:56 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		I have to agree. We are on a stupid merry-go-round. Peace only comes through meaningful and positive engagement with one's enemies and not trying to kill the enemy off. One has to get behind the public declarations and hyperbole. Jordon and Egypt made peace with Israel after once declaring their aim is to destroy Israel so we know public rhetoric is not absolute. The Palestinian issue is not the same issue as the Hezzbollah issue, which is not the same as the al qaeda issue. If the west seriously engaged with its perceived enemies and moderate Arabs to find solutions to festering sores, instead of finding a convenience in undermining moderates at every turn by lumping them together with extremists, some sort of progress could be made. That requires imagination and statemanship, something that is in short supply in the west at the moment.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 7:43:27 AM   
IronBear


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Status: offline 		Wouldn't it be easier if they all quit the battle field and let Jehova and Allah knuckle it out or whet ever deities do when they get pissy with each other....... 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 8:28:53 AM   
ddm


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Status: offline 		Sadly, the problem may have no solution. There are Moslem moderates out there who are prepared to recognise the right of Israel to exist but the extremists are always going to be in the mids't. The extremists clearly want to occupy Jerusalem and drive Jews out altogether. The thing is in order to understand the nature of the conflict, there is no alternative but to delve into the religion that lies behind it. The way I see it is an axis:
(1) Jews seek to live in their original homeland as a majority Jewish State.
(2) Radical Islamics believe Jews are polluting what they believe to be a Moslem land.
(3) Christians (mainly Bushites) won't tolerate Islamic control over Jerusalem.
Israel is caught in the middle protecting its interest for survival as a State but America has its own interests - namely American interests in Israel which has always been a U.S. backed state.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 8:38:34 AM   
IronBear


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Status: offline 		Well yes there is that of course.. Actually your reference to the Christians being mainly Bushites is not necessarily correst I seem to remember that from the time the Brits pulled out of Israel there have been conflicts for the right to control Jerusalem and this along with other things has been bubling along for some time.. I also sewem to remember readingon numerous reports that ment Christian groups were against any Islamic control over that fair city..... Still I could be wrong it has been a number of years since I looked at any of the Mil Intel reports.. Never been my scene of Opps (officially) but am a simple bloke who simply supports israel..  I still figure that if the two Deities coulkd sort the mess out and do what ever Deities do with extremists.. But that is probably not on their agends in any time in the next millenium.. 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 8:40:14 AM   
ddm


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Status: offline 		There is now speculation the tragic bombing in Qana could have been a set-up. The IDF reports the nearest hit to the building took place at about midnight but there's now a time-gap between the last known bombing and the time the building actually collapsed. That amounts to 7 hours time-gap.
The IDF believes there is every possibility the actual collapse of the building may have been caused by an explosion from within. This would indicate, Hezbolah may have stored weaponry and munitions inside the building where the civilians were hiding and that this somehow ignited.
This is what many Bloggers are reporting as well as Melanie Phillips who's a researcher on this conflict in the Middle East.
It's too early yet to speculate but I think we need to remember terrorist organizations and militants are not averse to exploiting human shields as propaganda. Just take a look at the Beslan school tragedy in Russia, the attacks on U.S. marines by snipers hiding in schools or mosques and the testimonies of many Lebanese who have stated Hezbollah has indeed used schools to store munitions.
It's important not to suddenly jump on Israel and accuse the IDF or war-crimes till we know more about what might have happened. 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 8:53:37 AM   
ddm


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Status: offline 		Sorry, I'm quoting myself here but I can't copy and paste what I just wrote to fix it as the mouse is disabled. I'm replying to the post about Christians and Bushites e.t.c.
According to my own research, the Jews first conquered Jerusalem from the Jebusites around 1000 B.C. which is a long time ago, I think. That was way before Islam came into being around 600 A.D. and way before Christianity appeared roughly around 30 A.D.
However, my own belief is Jerusalem has much to do with this current conflict since the Jihadists want to control it and then create a totally Islamic Jerusalem. If this were not the case, why has Hamas been firing rockets into Israel even after Israel withdrew from settlements and agreed to the U.S. endorsement of a Palestinian State?
At any rate, I think Europeans have been exaggerating this neo-con Bushite situation. I don't particularly support Bush but I think even without Bush, America was just as much a Christian country under Clinton. I mean, hell, look what happened way back in the sixties when there were riots over John Lennon's comparisons of the Beatles and Jesus Christ.
I don't think Americans want to see radical Islam take over Jerusalem and Israel destroyed as the only Middle Eastern democracy. I also think Israel is now fighting for its life and knows what's at stake.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ddm

There is now speculation the tragic bombing in Qana could have been a set-up. The IDF reports the nearest hit to the building took place at about midnight but there's now a time-gap between the last known bombing and the time the building actually collapsed. That amounts to 7 hours time-gap.
The IDF believes there is every possibility the actual collapse of the building may have been caused by an explosion from within. This would indicate, Hezbolah may have stored weaponry and munitions inside the building where the civilians were hiding and that this somehow ignited.
This is what many Bloggers are reporting as well as Melanie Phillips who's a researcher on this conflict in the Middle East.
It's too early yet to speculate but I think we need to remember terrorist organizations and militants are not averse to exploiting human shields as propaganda. Just take a look at the Beslan school tragedy in Russia, the attacks on U.S. marines by snipers hiding in schools or mosques and the testimonies of many Lebanese who have stated Hezbollah has indeed used schools to store munitions.
It's important not to suddenly jump on Israel and accuse the IDF or war-crimes till we know more about what might have happened. 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 8:58:19 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

quote:
Considering the documented Israel withdraw from Lebanon  in 2000 didn't lessen the activity or membership of Hezbollah; and you position is the attacks on Hezbollah won't accomplish that either. What does your superior intellect recommend? 


quote:

EnglishDomNW: Where did I suggest it did?  I didn't say "Withdrawal will lessen Hezbollah's membership", I said "Flattening Lebanon will increase it". 


ED,
Attacking doesn't help, not attacking doesn't help, the middle road is not "flattening Lebanon"? What if they just smooth out some wrinkles?

You're coming off like many others who can criticize after the fact but no matter what find it easy to point out what's wrong. Your insights are just as useful as these dateline reports:

Dateline Rome: March 16, 44 BC "Caesar is a fool for going to the Senate".

Dateline Hawaii: December 8, 1941 "Pearl Harbor fortifications were obviously lacking".

Dateline Berlin: June 7, 1944 "I knew Hitler should have thought of Normandy".

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 10:00:28 AM   
ddm


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Joined: 7/23/2006
Status: offline 		Israel is now the frontline in the battle between Islamofascism and democracy, if the 2 factions truly exist. Perhaps they do.
Americans need to reflect what might result if Israel were to lose this conflict but really it's up to Americans whether they abstain or get involved. However, staying out of WW2 and not confronting Hitler earlier on, didn't actually work.
If Hamas, Iran and Hezbolah succeed in their desire to destroy Israel, the target will most certainly shift elsewhere and the threat to the west would be ever greater.
Wake up, folks, and reflect a minute. The French who opposed the Iraq war have been threatened by Chechnyan radicals for banning veils. The Dutch have had huge problems after a Dutch artist was stabbed for criticizing Islam. London, Madrid, Indonesia and bali have been bombed. Russia had an entire school occupied and the children held to ransom.
This is happening all over the globe. Muslims are not the aggressors but extreme Islamists are a different kettle of fish.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 10:03:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ddm

There is now speculation the tragic bombing in Qana could have been a set-up. The IDF reports the nearest hit to the building took place at about midnight but there's now a time-gap between the last known bombing and the time the building actually collapsed. That amounts to 7 hours time-gap.
The IDF believes there is every possibility the actual collapse of the building may have been caused by an explosion from within. This would indicate, Hezbolah may have stored weaponry and munitions inside the building where the civilians were hiding and that this somehow ignited.
This is what many Bloggers are reporting as well as Melanie Phillips who's a researcher on this conflict in the Middle East.
It's too early yet to speculate but I think we need to remember terrorist organizations and militants are not averse to exploiting human shields as propaganda. Just take a look at the Beslan school tragedy in Russia, the attacks on U.S. marines by snipers hiding in schools or mosques and the testimonies of many Lebanese who have stated Hezbollah has indeed used schools to store munitions.
It's important not to suddenly jump on Israel and accuse the IDF or war-crimes till we know more about what might have happened. 


This sounds like desperation. I've seen News reports where the reporters apparently heard about the bombing at Qana in the early hours, not long after it happened. There has been no questioning of what happened by any serious news organisation and I'm sure I had heard about Qana on TV well within your stated seven hours.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 10:46:53 AM   
ddm


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Status: offline 		It would make no sense at all for the IDF to bomb these civilians. It's still too early to speculate but let's not forget Hezbolah has been known to store munitions in schools and hospitals for obvious reasons. I recently read a personal testimony from someone who lived in these villages and he stated Hezbolah had stored munitions in houses and civilian locations.
What amazes me is the media is suggesting Israel has knowingly targeted civilians so how come the U.N. didn't accuse NATO in the same way when churches and schools were hit in Serbia? I know for a fact civilian convoys in Iraq as well as civilian locations in Serbia were hit by bombs and nobody suggested that was done deliberately.
What takes the biscuit is Russia joining in, accusing the IDF of excessive force when missiles are flying into the country - 80 a day. Didn't Russia bomb Chechnya into the dark ages and not even allow the U.N. into the area?
I think Israel may well be in a no win situation.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 11:29:32 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		meatcleaver,

Your point on Arab moderates. This brings us to the real issue. If the issue for the US and British Governments was terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism then the Arab countries would be natural allies of the US and British Governments as they are far more worried about Islamic fundamentalism than we are (due to it being a much bigger threat to the Arab way of life than ours).

As the issue is about economics there has been no real attempt to build relations with moderate Arab states preferring instead to build relations with one of only a couple of countries in the Gulf that is actually fundamentalist. Amazing.

As said, the will isn't there on the part of the US Government and even if the will is there on the part of the British Government they will never be in a position to do anything about it as they have lost all credibility in the region.

Regards

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 11:51:33 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ddm

It would make no sense at all for the IDF to bomb these civilians. It's still too early to speculate but let's not forget Hezbolah has been known to store munitions in schools and hospitals for obvious reasons. I recently read a personal testimony from someone who lived in these villages and he stated Hezbolah had stored munitions in houses and civilian locations.
What amazes me is the media is suggesting Israel has knowingly targeted civilians so how come the U.N. didn't accuse NATO in the same way when churches and schools were hit in Serbia? I know for a fact civilian convoys in Iraq as well as civilian locations in Serbia were hit by bombs and nobody suggested that was done deliberately.
What takes the biscuit is Russia joining in, accusing the IDF of excessive force when missiles are flying into the country - 80 a day. Didn't Russia bomb Chechnya into the dark ages and not even allow the U.N. into the area?
I think Israel may well be in a no win situation.


NATO were in the Balkens to stop a potential genocide and ethnic cleansing. I accept collateral damage happens in warfare but there is a big difference between trying to stop a war crime and an over the top retaliation that is aimed at terrorising civilians. You only have to listen to Ehud Olmert to understand his motives as he doesn't even try to hide them.

I agree with you about Russia having some gall about accusing Israel of being over the top after what they did to Chechyna and I mentioned that on one of the threads here.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 4:13:38 PM   
ddm


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Status: offline 		There may well be grounds for claiming the IDF has been heavy handed. Even so, let's bear in mind what Israel has been putting up with over the months.
Israel has agreed to the whole idea of a Palestinian State and Israel has taken bold steps to force settlers out of disputed territory. This, however, has been interpreted as weakness by Islamic fundamentalists. Notice how Hamas immediately claimed it's policy of terror was what "forced" Israel to make concessions.
So, what happens next? The Palestinians elect Hamas which aims to destroy Israel and create a vast Islamic State with Jerusalem as the capital. Rockets are continually fired into Israel while foreigners in Gaza itself are kidnapped - including British aid-workers.
Finally. Hamas activists dig a tunnel, sweep into Israel, shoot some soldiers and kidnap others.
What would America have done? What would Russia have done? What would France have done?
As for Britain and all the moralising we get over here lately, I seem to recall plain clothes police pumping several rounds into an unarmed, suspected terrorist in the London metro (a Brazilian) just after the London bombing and that was after just one suicide bombing - not a continual series of attacks as Israel sustains.
Possibly mistakes have been made. However, we seem to find this over and over again. The U.S. somehow bombed the Chinese Embassy in Begrade and this nearly caused WW3 so I think it's clearly a case that in war terrible mistakes happen. I honestly don't believe Israel would deliberately target women and children.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 5:48:32 PM   
IronBear


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Status: offline 		This seems to be appropriate here for some strange reason......

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Is it moral to kill an 18 month old baby? No
Is it moral to kill a man? No
It it moral to allow the man holding the 18 month old baby to live and go on to kill 5 other children with a car bomb? No

Perhaps the real display of morality is that you know there is not a "moral" solution to the problem, but the lesser of the two immoral acts is to try and kill the man but not the 18 month old and be sad when you kill both. But also be sad if you succed in only killing the man, but glad that you have saved others.  


I can live with and endorse that. I guess I won't be the only person in CM who has had to make that decision and have to live with it.. It never really goes away it just gets shunted untill some dark night when you wake up sweating and having the horrors....




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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 5:59:43 PM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

quote:
Considering the documented Israel withdraw from Lebanon  in 2000 didn't lessen the activity or membership of Hezbollah; and you position is the attacks on Hezbollah won't accomplish that either. What does your superior intellect recommend? 


quote:

EnglishDomNW: Where did I suggest it did?  I didn't say "Withdrawal will lessen Hezbollah's membership", I said "Flattening Lebanon will increase it". 


ED,
Attacking doesn't help, not attacking doesn't help, the middle road is not "flattening Lebanon"? What if they just smooth out some wrinkles?



Well they could, if they were as religiously inclined as they constantly claim to be, just go read their own Torah, go back and live under the umbrella of the benevolant nations that accepted them as their own God instructed them to do.

Overnight, problem solved for absolutely everyone, wouldn't you agree? 

quote:



quote:



You're coming off like many others who can criticize after the fact but no matter what find it easy to point out what's wrong.


I don't think I've changed my opinion on Israel in the last 10 years so "criticising after the fact" is a weird statement. 

I'll make it clear.  I think Israel is a state with zero right to exist, even under its own religion.

That's a pretty unambiguous standpoint. 

quote:



Your insights are just as useful as these dateline reports:

Dateline Rome: March 16, 44 BC "Caesar is a fool for going to the Senate".

Dateline Hawaii: December 8, 1941 "Pearl Harbor fortifications were obviously lacking".

Dateline Berlin: June 7, 1944 "I knew Hitler should have thought of Normandy".


Ummmm.. I'll just say "ok" because I have no idea what any of the above has to do with what I said. 

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 8/2/2006 6:19:03 PM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 8/2/2006 7:52:26 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		You could argue that no nation has the right to exist as nearly all were forged by conflict and in effect stolen from another people.
I think if I were Israeli I would have a very different opinion to my safe in the west of Europe / America view point.

The Israelis only have to loose once and the Arab states will destroy them, the Israelis keep winning but leave room for the Arabs to rebuild.
Perhaps the UN needs its own, independent effective mercenary Army for rapid dispatch to parts of the globe where genocide or ethnic clensing is occuring...........with the understanding that if that force is attacked overwhelming multinational peace enforcement troops will be sent, automatically. In such a senario the militants and suporting countries will have an option of peace under "impartial rule" or millitary defeat. Perhaps the Balkans, Palestine, Afghanistan and Congo would all have been shorter conflicts. The basis of such a force would not be political, geographical control but striaght forward peace enforcement and nation building or seperating warring factions. Unlikley and probably unworkable but, what if......? 

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