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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 3:33:40 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile

Dierwolf, I'm Israeli ;)


I gathered that. But your first assumption of Israel being criticised is the person making the criticism is anti-semetic and they want Israel destroyed. If maybe for a moment considered there might well be grounds for criticism of Israel's action and tried for a moment to look from the other point of view, you might well see there are legitimate grounds for criticism. I don't see how anyone cannot see that Israel's reaction as having not been way over the top. Israel is attacking civilian infrastructure and killing innocent civilians. That is unarguable. They are laying waste to a country that is just getting back on its feet. So far and I assume the Israeli army means to change this fact, very few Hezzbullah have been killed in proportion to the amount of civilians killed. No one is arguing about Israel killing terrorists but the fact that Israel appears to feel that punishing the population from where the terrorists operate as an act of policy. Collective punishment is supposed to be against international law.  Israel puts purports to put itself on the side of civilisation fighting the war on terrorism while acting like terrorist.

Russia is using the same excuse in Chechnya after creating a terrorist organisation because of its actions in a similar way. It is all total hypocrisy. The situation caused then attracts terrorists who don't care for the original cause but is only concerned with wreaking terrorism for terrorism's sake, which justifies states to be more violent in their 'war on terrorism' while not accepting their responsibilty for causing the terrorism in the first place and so the viscious circle carries on. Violence just creats more intense violence with each side full of their own sanctimonious self justification. The clock can't be turned back, one has to start the future from here and more of the same old failed strategies is just stupid and myopic.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/23/2006 4:12:05 AM >

(in reply to cr0ckdile)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 4:18:38 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		These threads are almost funny to read after a while, especially at six in the morning, when you got home from work at five and are totally wired ... yawn.
 
Just about every country on Earth, took their land from someone that was previously sitting on it ... unless they had it before recorded history started, in which case they don't have a mandate, only a date prior to recorded history. Nations are largely created by military power. That may suck ... lots of things in life suck ... which has never changed the way things are.
 
Israel has the right to do what it is doing, because their tanks say so. Now, everyone would say that is awful, but notice how nobody is lining up to change it.
 
And of course, no thread would be complete without the usual America bashing from someone in Europe ... "We no longer care about you, and your media sucks, and we don't care about you so much, we are going to come on a website full of you to tell you all about it."
 
Kind of boring the first few hundred times it was posted, ad it's not getting any more interesting with repetition.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 4:25:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: iam4her

And you guys that wave with the stripe flag, those strips doesn´t impress on the the rest of the world anymore. We have already turned our heads away.
you need a new flag.


This sort of post is utterly pointless and insulting people's country is counter productive and absurd. Any one with any sort of objective view of the world has to acknowledge the US has done a lot of good in the world as well as some bad and there are no European countries that can point a finger at the US without pointing a finger at itself first. The US naturally looks after its own interests but tell me a country that doesn't.

I don't agree with the present American administration but neither do many Americans and I view Blair as worse than Bush even though he isn't within a light year of wielding anywhere near the power because he is happy to dance in the shadow of a man with power rather than have his country take an independent line which many of its citizens crave for. Actually I think the Dutch government is as bad and as craven as the British government. This has nothing to do with anti-Americanism but to do with the interests of the country they are supposed to govern.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 4:37:07 AM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lilmissbossy

I do understand the point the guy from Sweden is making. 

I guess anyone who isn't American isn't likely to understand what the U.S. flag means when flown on US soil.

But equally unless you're not an American, you can't understand why it's disliked outside U.S. borders.  Which probably explains why so many Americans put it down to "jealousy" because that's easier to live with.

As weird as it may seem, most nations outside of America see your flag as the symbol of.......I'm trying to post as honestly as I can..... an international bully.  I hope that doesn't across as offensive, it's genuinely not meant to be.  Especially as my own country practically invented international bullying.

It's just the difference of "outside looking in" and "inside looking out"

There's a great song by Morrissey called "America is not the world", I won't post the lyrics because of copyright but you can find them from a Google search.

As for Israel, no they do not have the right to destroy another country's infrastructure and practically strangle it to death.  Nor do opponents of Israel have the right to fire endless streams of rockets into Northern Israel. 

As far as I can see, there should have been a negotiated release of people kidnapped from Israel (and BY Israel too).  The sad fact is that if Hezbollah had Israel's firepower, you wouldn't get restraint from them either.

They're all as bad as each other, pointing fingers and saying "they started it"


Hi bossy. About lyrics; you can post them as long as you credit the singer or songwriter .
 
I know how some others feel about America, and I understand why some think we're bullies. Some of their beliefs are reasonable, some are not.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 5:28:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile

Ah yes!  The Crusades!  The Crusades!  Every Muslim today keeps reminding us Westerners that we should feel guilty that 900 years ago, our "forefathers" invaded the Middle East.

Need I remind you, my dear meatcleaver, that Egypt, Syria, Libya, Morrocco, Jordan, Palestine, Turkey, and even parts of Iraq, were all provinces of the Roman Empire and were centres of Christianity?  As a matter of fact, Antioch in Syria and Alexandria in Egypt were the intellectual centres of the Christian world.  But Islam destroyed that when it spread out of Arabia and conquered and forcibly converted the populations of the Middle East and North Africa.

So don't talk to us about the Crusades and violence.  Islam began the conflict when it devastated the Eastern Roman Empire and carved up over half its territories.  And that was 300 years before the Crusades.


Actually it was the Crusaders in the fourth crusade that sacked Constantinople and not the muslims. You can see much of the wealth looted from Constantinople in Venice, where the crusaders sailed from under the blessing of pope Innocent III. The crusaders never actually reached the 'Holy Lands'.

You are defeating your own argument here about muslims not forgetting. Isn't one of the arguments for Israel situated where it is, is because it was their homeland first? The west has accepted de facto that these areas are now muslim, it has also accepted de facto Israel's existence and most countries are in full and positive support of Israel's right to exist. However, many do not believe in Israel's right to flout international law and levy collective punishment on civilian population.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 5:40:55 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level 
I know how some others feel about America, and I understand why some think we're bullies. Some of their beliefs are reasonable, some are not.


Do you ever wonder what other countries would like us to be? A paragon of perfection in an inperfect world?
 
We could be that country that embraces peace in the world. We could disband our military, and turn our aircraft carriers into cruise ships. I wonder how the Soviets would have responded to that, back when they wanted to put a hammer and sickle on every European flag?

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 5:48:10 AM   
caitlyn


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Status: offline 		With all respect due Meatcleaver, you have a tendency to find a point on the historical timeline and ignore everything prior to that point.
 
The Crusades are one thing. Long before that, Islamic Berber tribes tried to take most of Europe from Christian rulers. The Sassanids used, and didn't use religion, as they saw fit, to promote an agenda of conquest. At least the Byzantines were consistent ... there was never any question about their motivation. They wanted to reinvent the old Roman Empire, plain and simple.
 
You can't determine the "right and wrong" by looking at history. You will eventually come to a point where no history was recorded ... which is really no point at all.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 5:51:23 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level 
I know how some others feel about America, and I understand why some think we're bullies. Some of their beliefs are reasonable, some are not.


Do you ever wonder what other countries would like us to be? A paragon of perfection in an inperfect world?
 
We could be that country that embraces peace in the world. We could disband our military, and turn our aircraft carriers into cruise ships. I wonder how the Soviets would have responded to that, back when they wanted to put a hammer and sickle on every European flag?


I don't think the majority of western Europeans really believed the USSR had ambitions further west in Europe, not through war anayway. I think most Europeans realised the Russians couldn't rely on their 'allies' to fight along side them and that Poles, none Russian Ukraines, Hungarians and East Germans were just as likely to point their tanks at Moscow than Bonn, Paris or London.

I can understand you being pissed at some of the criticism and insults  aimed at the US. It pisses me off too because it turns a debate into infantile point scoring.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 5:52:45 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level 
I know how some others feel about America, and I understand why some think we're bullies. Some of their beliefs are reasonable, some are not.


Do you ever wonder what other countries would like us to be? A paragon of perfection in an inperfect world?
 
We could be that country that embraces peace in the world. We could disband our military, and turn our aircraft carriers into cruise ships. I wonder how the Soviets would have responded to that, back when they wanted to put a hammer and sickle on every European flag?


Yes, caitlyn, even back then, when we were "useful", there were those that nitpicked us to death. It's one reason I don't overly worry about this issue, I know for a fact that we cannot do what it would take to make some critics happy. I know what America is, and it's more good than not, and I can live with that.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 6:03:50 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I don't think the majority of western Europeans really believed the USSR had ambitions further west in Europe, not through war anayway. I think most Europeans realised the Russians couldn't rely on their 'allies' to fight along side them and that Poles, none Russian Ukraines, Hungarians and East Germans were just as likely to point their tanks at Moscow than Bonn, Paris or London.

I can understand you being pissed at some of the criticism and insults  aimed at the US. It pisses me off too because it turns a debate into infantile point scoring.


But, wasn't it nice not to have to find out if that was true ... the hard way?
 
Most Americans believe that the United States "rescued" Europe in two world wars. I think that's silly and untrue, but do feel that every coffin we sent home from Europe draped in an American flag, was one that wasn't sent home draped in someone else's.
 
I think you are diluding yourself about the Soviets. They really didn't need their Eastern Eurpoean allies ... but then again, wasn't it nice not to have to find out the hard way?
 
I can't say that I'm pissed about the criticism. I can't say that I think Europeans are jealous. I've been to Europe and they have nothing to be jealous of us about. They live in beautiful countries. What I am pissed about, it that I typo'd imperfect  ... and my true feeling are that people that hammer American (like you have done many times) on a board full of American ... just look fucking silly.
 
There is nothing that would make me go on a board like this and hammer away at the UK (other than hotels), or France, or wherever. Those are not my home ... I'm not from there ... so I just shut the fuck up.
 
That's what I think ... I think more people should just shut the fuck up. I'll make a list if you like.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 6:16:55 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

With all respect due Meatcleaver, you have a tendency to find a point on the historical timeline and ignore everything prior to that point.
 
The Crusades are one thing. Long before that, Islamic Berber tribes tried to take most of Europe from Christian rulers. The Sassanids used, and didn't use religion, as they saw fit, to promote an agenda of conquest. At least the Byzantines were consistent ... there was never any question about their motivation. They wanted to reinvent the old Roman Empire, plain and simple.
 
You can't determine the "right and wrong" by looking at history. You will eventually come to a point where no history was recorded ... which is really no point at all.


I am not trying to determine right or wrong. I'm simply trying to illustrate that the knee jerk reaction that muslims are somehow how inherently violent and always have been and it's pointless negotiating with them, is factually wrong and wrong headed.

Crockdile said it was the muslims that sacked Constantinople. WRONG it was the christians.

He said the muslims destroyed the library at Alexandria. WRONG, it fell into obscurity and scholars have think the library was probably dispersed to muslim universities where the muslims had seats of learning.

He said the muslims destroyed Antioch. I wouldn't go as far as saying wrong this time but neither would I say he is right. There were several seiges and battles there in the crusades.

It is not about scoring points, its about the perception of some people's one dimensional view of Islam that they see as justification for all sorts of ill thought out policies.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 6:23:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
I don't think the majority of western Europeans really believed the USSR had ambitions further west in Europe, not through war anayway. I think most Europeans realised the Russians couldn't rely on their 'allies' to fight along side them and that Poles, none Russian Ukraines, Hungarians and East Germans were just as likely to point their tanks at Moscow than Bonn, Paris or London.

I can understand you being pissed at some of the criticism and insults  aimed at the US. It pisses me off too because it turns a debate into infantile point scoring.


But, wasn't it nice not to have to find out if that was true ... the hard way?
 
Most Americans believe that the United States "rescued" Europe in two world wars. I think that's silly and untrue, but do feel that every coffin we sent home from Europe draped in an American flag, was one that wasn't sent home draped in someone else's.
 
I think you are diluding yourself about the Soviets. They really didn't need their Eastern Eurpoean allies ... but then again, wasn't it nice not to have to find out the hard way?
 
I can't say that I'm pissed about the criticism. I can't say that I think Europeans are jealous. I've been to Europe and they have nothing to be jealous of us about. They live in beautiful countries. What I am pissed about, it that I typo'd imperfect  ... and my true feeling are that people that hammer American (like you have done many times) on a board full of American ... just look fucking silly.
 
There is nothing that would make me go on a board like this and hammer away at the UK (other than hotels), or France, or wherever. Those are not my home ... I'm not from there ... so I just shut the fuck up.
 
That's what I think ... I think more people should just shut the fuck up. I'll make a list if you like.


Actually I like the US but I don't like its foreign policies, well not of this administration anyway and maybe my getting pissed leads me to be less than precise with my language. I am actually far more pissed off with Britain because it keeps fucking voting Blair in who likes to dance in Bush's shadow rather than listening to the electorate of Britain and what they want.  

Having lived through the cold war I can honestly say that Europe was not as paranoid of the USSR as the US seemed to be but then the Interests of the USSR conflicted more with US interests than Europe's interests.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/23/2006 6:26:44 AM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 6:36:16 AM   
caitlyn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Crockdile said it was the muslims that sacked Constantinople. WRONG it was the christians.

He said the muslims destroyed Antioch. I wouldn't go as far as saying wrong this time but neither would I say he is right. There were several seiges and battles there in the crusades.



The Ottomans both sacked and destroyed Constantinople, after the Crusades of course.
 
The Sassanids sacked and destroyes Antioch too many times to count ... all before the Crusades. During the reign of Justinian and Heraclius, the Sassanids reduced the city to rubble. Justinian rebuilt the city at the behest of his Empress, Theodora, who seems to have been from Antioch. She took wide criticism from Procopius, for spending so much Byzantine money to rebuilt the city.
 
Neither rof you is either right, or wrong. That is the point. 

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 6:41:10 AM   
pollux


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

However, people aren't calling for the destruction of Israel


Nobody is calling for the destruction of Israel except Hezbollah.  And Hamas.  And Iran.  And Syria.  And all their sympathizers.

quote:

but for it to stop its over the top reaction and stop terrorising and targeting civilians while claiming to be targeting terrorists.


The terrorists are integrated into the civilian population, and they use civilian infrastructure.  They don't drive around in army trucks wearing uniforms.  They don't get gas from military depots -- they get it from gas stations.  They don't set up a base for their missile launchers -- they hide them inside people's basements.  That's why they're such a damn problem.   And they want exactly the reaction you are giving them -- they want the Israelis to have to kill innocent people while coming after them and they are absolutely dependent on the self-righteours, morally superior "international community" to stand up and demand that Israel stop this "disproportionate" response.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 6:57:20 AM   
mistressandy


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Status: offline 		if you read your history you would know that the arab world would like to wipe
isreal off the map and if you dont know this you haven,t read your history,isreal
is doing america and the world a favor and saving their country at the same time
bravo isreal

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 8:53:07 AM   
cr0ckdile


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quote:

But your first assumption of Israel being criticised is the person making the criticism is anti-semetic and they want Israel destroyed.


That is not what I said.  I said that holding Israelis up to a different standard than the rest of the world, or in our case, the Muslim world, is anti-Semitic.  Criticize Israel all you want, but balance it with criticism of similar actions taken by Muslims.  You, however, choose not to do that, you constantly pick on Israel as the end all of evil.  No peep about the occupation of Lebanon by Syria and Hezbollah, not a peep about the suffering of Palestinians in Arab lands, purposely ignoring certain events or taking others out of context to keep Israel's enemies pure and innocent.

As for using disproportionate force, again, who harboured Hezbollah, letting it remain in its country, arm to a point where it is more powerful than the national military, occupy its southern half, and continually make war with Israel even after Israel withdrew?  Lebanon.

quote:

The crusaders never actually reached the 'Holy Lands'.


As for the Crusades, meatcleaver, if you don't know that the crusaders reached Syria and Palestine, please stop telling people to read their history books, and read yours.  I'm not going to waste my time lecturing you on the history of the Crusades, but I think the six Crusader castles located within a radius of an hour's drive from where I lived in Israel is plenty evidence that they did, in fact, reach the Holy Land.

So what if the Crusaders sacked Constantinople?  Your point in bringing up the Crusades was to falsely demonstrate that somehow the West is to blame for the current conflict.  That the Crusaders massacred fellow Christians along their path to the Holy Land is irrelevant to the fact that Islam, shortly after the preachings of Mohammed, spread like wildfire and conquered and forcibly converted more than half of the (Christian) Roman Empire.


< Message edited by cr0ckdile -- 7/23/2006 9:16:39 AM >

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 9:49:27 AM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
And of course, no thread would be complete without the usual America bashing from someone in Europe ... "We no longer care about you, and your media sucks, and we don't care about you so much, we are going to come on a website full of you to tell you all about it."
 
Kind of boring the first few hundred times it was posted, ad it's not getting any more interesting with repetition.


What's even more boring is always finding that European complaint followed by a caitlyn complaint about the European complaint

quote:


Do you ever wonder what other countries would like us to be?

 
Wonder no more.  The answer is "quiet".

< Message edited by EnglishDomNW -- 7/23/2006 9:52:34 AM >

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 10:09:08 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW


quote:


Do you ever wonder what other countries would like us to be?

 
Wonder no more.  The answer is "quiet".


Really ?
Hmmm, that seems not to be the case when there is a national disaster and a country needs aid. Actually, there is criticism then becasue we haven't given " enough" or we haven't given " more" than country X. Or when we were silent on Rwanda.  Plenty of criticism there, then and now.
< for the record, I was one of the ones criticizing > Or when we don't take a public stand on something another country thinks we should take a stand on.

Simple example: AIDS and Africa... seems the world doesn't want us quiet on that one. Or maybe they do, quiet while reaching deep in our pockets to appease what other nations have determined is our " fair share" to give out.

So, I think the accurate statement is silent when other nations want us to be silent. Exactly the same illogic we use when judging other countries.

             mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

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RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 10:10:37 AM   
EnglishDomNW


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pollux

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

However, people aren't calling for the destruction of Israel


Nobody is calling for the destruction of Israel except Hezbollah.  And Hamas.  And Iran.  And Syria.  And all their sympathizers.

quote:

but for it to stop its over the top reaction and stop terrorising and targeting civilians while claiming to be targeting terrorists.


The terrorists are integrated into the civilian population, and they use civilian infrastructure.  They don't drive around in army trucks wearing uniforms.  They don't get gas from military depots -- they get it from gas stations.  They don't set up a base for their missile launchers -- they hide them inside people's basements.  That's why they're such a damn problem.   And they want exactly the reaction you are giving them -- they want the Israelis to have to kill innocent people while coming after them and they are absolutely dependent on the self-righteours, morally superior "international community" to stand up and demand that Israel stop this "disproportionate" response.


Israel has two soldiers kidnapped, Israel is a victim.
Israel brings a country to its knees in return, Israel is not acting disproportionately.

Well since Israel did some kidnapping of its own, if Iran nuked it tomorrow you'd presumably see that as a "proportionate response", yes?

_____________________________


"I am woman hear me roar!"

(Yes and I am Man, keep the noise down, bitch.)
.

(in reply to pollux)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? - 7/23/2006 10:13:39 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		If I remember right, you brought up the crusades as a way of proving that muslim culture was inherently violent.

No one is holding up Israel to having higher values than everyone else. Ironically, many countries have been trying to establish international law because of the holocaust. When Olmert said, any other country would do the same as Israel is doing now, I would dispute that. Britain hasn't got a fantastic record in such things but one lesson I think Britain has learnt and that is trying to defeat terrorism with more terrorism just doesn't work.

When I said the crusaders didn't reach the Holy Lands, I menant the crusaders of the fourth crusade which sacked Constantinople and it is what they looted in that Crusade that now adorns Venice.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 7/23/2006 10:15:10 AM >

(in reply to cr0ckdile)
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