RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this?

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KenDckey -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 3:15:44 PM)
ok I guess it is time for me to wade back in. Proportional Response. if a response has to be proportional then if I take my M1A2 tank up against your T72 and my t;ank is better then I have to sell it so we can be evenly matched. If you kill 2 of mine and I kill 3 of yours then I guess I am supposed to send someone out to be executed to make the numbers even. Come on people. Proportional response has never been a part of anyone's war since the beginning of time. Does Isreal have the right? Well that will be settled on the battlefield or in the courts. Public Opinion does not have a thing to do with right. I don't profess to know what is right because I don't have perview to ALL the facts. Those facts expressed in the news media are only a small percentage of the true facts and are quoted as the only facts. The Death of Civilians - Hiding behind civilians. This has been done forever. Hostages are civilians. putting armed camps in the school yard or next to the hosp turn those facilities into at risk facilities. I don't condone it, the US Government doesn't condone it. In fact, I only know a few people that do. But the reality is that it occurs. Especially in lesser armed camps expecting to tangle with heavily armed well trained forces. Do civilians get killed and injured. Yes. We don't live in a one shot one kill world. I went to a shooting competition and hit a 1 cm target 6 out of 7 rounds at 300 meters using a strange weapon and open sight. But I seriously wonder if I could have done 1% that good if someone was shooting at me - I know I can't been there done that too. Should we pay? Nice system. I shoot at you and you shoot back at me and we get the US to pay the damages. After all, it must have been the US that forced me to shoot - LOL. Border Defense. Terrorists only border is the turf he is standing on. He doesn't recognize anyone elses borders. So Isreal invades Lebanon. It's stated objective is taking out the terrorists that corssed it's borders. Seems like Isreal wouldn't have to invade Lebanon if Lebanon had done its job and policed the terrorists within its borders.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 3:18:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux What do you do when the terrorists have blended in with the civilian population, or are using civilian infrastructure for support? What do you do when your miltary makes a mistake? What do you do when you have to make a judgement call, or your technology breaks down? Are any of those situations forgiveable during wartime? Wars against terrorists have to be fought over the long term. Separating the host population from the terrorists by winning hearts and minds while gathering intelligence and making hits on the terrorists. Britain learnt the hard way that hitting back at any target that resembles a terrorist is counter productive and increases the numbers and the resolve of the terrorists over the long term. Britain has success in a guerilla war in Malaya by winning hearts and minds while pursuing terrorist targets. Northern Ireland was another war that was pursued in a similar way. Not all the population want the Brits there and never will but most of the terrorism has been fought to a stand still. Do you believe that the Israeli military is being told to deliberately fire on civilian targets that are known to be innocent or otherwise not involved in any kind of Hezbollah activity? If you answer yes, I'm curious what you think the purpose of this is -- how it is in Israel's interest to do this. I don't believe Israel is ordering its military to hit civilian targets but I do believe they are guilty of being criminally negligent. quote: The consensus on various news channels here (various countries) is that Israel is openly firing on civilian targets. Even the BBC which isn't known for hyperbole said it is inconceivable that the residential homes the Israeli airforce is pulverizing can possibly be military targets. In one report it said that the Israeli airforce appears to attack vehicles that move and the hospital is busy with wounded women and children from such attacks. Jan Egeland the UN Undersecretary General for Humanitarian Affairs (I know Americans hate the UN) toured southern Bierut and said what is being done is criminal, excessive and out of all proportion. Sorry if I'm not stirred to outrage by the famously neutral and fair-minded BBC and UN. Actually their reporting is reflected by all the reporting from other countries and CNN Europe is not contradicting any other news channel. quote: Oh And as for terrorism. We had American funded Irish terrorism in London and NI for years. The US government funded terrorism in Northern Ireland? That's news to me. I didn't say the US government funded terrorism but the US government turned a blind eye to fund raising for Irish terrorism by its citizens. Reagan said he couldn't do anything about it and US courts have stopped several extraditions of terrorists saying their acts were political. Funny how that changed after 9/11 quote: Did we go round killing innocent civilians? Good question. Next time I'm in Northern Ireland, I'll be sure and ask around about that. I'm sure you will find some questionable deaths, I'm not claiming sainthood for the British army but when there were eighteen soldiers blown up in a bomb, their colleagues didn't go round on a killing of the innocents spree. If you look at the stats of deaths you won't see numerous civilian deaths credited to the army but the vast majority to the IRA, a lesser number to the Protestant organisations and you will find that far more soldiers, police and prisoner officers were killed than any where near the claims about unlawful killings by the security forces. Every questionable death by the forces was played out night after night on the news so it wasn't a case they could simply walk away from questionable or criminal acts.

Dierwolf -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 3:46:16 PM)
look here's a thought. This discussion, and all those like it, that are outside the population of the middle east, and their governments or representative groups, is intellectual masturbation. You should ALL (with the exception of cr0ck and anyone else whose actually there, or lived there) be ashamed of yourselves for having the unmitigated GALL to sit here and pontificate. This discussion is part of the reason many people in the middle east (christians jews AND muslims) dislike the western world. And I for one am sick of this shit from americans and canadians and europeans who are armchair strategists and politicians. Your opinions count for NOTHING in this situation. NO ONE in israel gives a damn what you think about whether or not they have the right to do ANYTHING. You wonder why the situation in the middle east is so fucked up? it's because repellant asswipes talk like this and people who could actually sit down and make a difference are totally polarized and thus paralyzed. There actually are ALOT of people on BOTH sides who could sit down and make things work reasonably and peacefully if the rest of the world would shut the hell up and let them.

KenDckey -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 3:49:25 PM)
Dierwolf I say again I was there in the 60's and in the area during the 67 mid-east war.

Dierwolf -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 3:54:32 PM)
I understand that Ken, and was not referring to you. You do in fact have a leg to stand on here. (as do I, having both lived there, and now being a National Security Studies Major). People don't seem to realize that when a person Like gerry falwell for example says something like, hey we should just whackem all, the average devout muslim looks at that and says, their honored teacher has given his statement, that must be what all of them think. So much hate is created through discussions just like this one it's unreal. If people truly wanted to stop terrorism they'd stop blowing things up and think about the long term effects of what they do and how they do it. Instead people try and dissect things they have no frame of reference for, without any training or education. And the repeated effect of many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, doing that, is polarization and enmity. Not to mention the fact that I stand by what I originally said. If you aren't involved you should be quiet.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 3:57:22 PM)
Israel doesn't seem to mind Americans when the Americans are rushing to them precision guided bombs, supplying F-16s, Apache helicopters etc. Of course Israel wants to be left alone to finish the job it started and not have its excessive killing spree criticized but none of the rest of the middle east wants that, in fact they are calling for the international community to do something. The powerful always want to be left alone so they can do their dirty business without witnesses. As Bernard Kouchner said 'Mankind's suffering belongs to all men,'

Master96 -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 4:00:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey I have a hard time believing that only 19 Israelis have been killed since pre1948 at the hands of Heztbola or however you spell it. It is very true. Believe it! quote: ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile What a stupid argument. People like Sharon are/were talking about peace and they are criminals like Hitler. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre quote: ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile Actually, Temyn8or, many of the Jewish areas of modern day Israel were already legally purchased property by the Jewish National Fund. It did not belong to the Palestinians, as a matter of fact, in 1948 there were no people called Palestinians, it was an adjective attributed to anyone who lived in the region. And the territory was mandated to Britain, which then returned it to the UN. That’s so, so, so wrong. quote: ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile Ah yes! The Crusades! The Crusades! Every Muslim today keeps reminding us Westerners that we should feel guilty that 900 years ago, our "forefathers" invaded the Middle East. Believe me; Jews will keep reminding Europeans about the holocaust for another 900 years. And if the Spanish empire was the brutal one, the Arabic-Islamic Empire was the most merciful one. quote: ORIGINAL: cr0ckdile the Muslim world, is anti-Semitic how is that? Arabs are Semitic quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver It is not about scoring points, its about the perception of some people's one dimensional view of Islam that they see as justification for all sorts of ill thought out policies. Thank you meatcleaver. Master96,

Estring -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 4:02:24 PM)
Your problem Ken, is that you make too much sense. Why the hell should Israel care about world opinion? Much of the world is anti-semetic anyway. They wouldn't lose a bit of sleep if Israel was destroyed. Does anyone remember what happened the last time Jews were threatened with extinction? They did not resist, as most of them felt that Hitler could never be that evil. And look what happened. Israel needs to do everything in it's power to make sure that doesn't happen again. And for anyone who doubts this, how long do you think Israel would last if they laid down their weapons and refused to fight?

KenDckey -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 4:05:02 PM)
Oh yeah. That is like in the Koran, Jesus Christ is listed as a great profit. And if you look at the historyh of the Muslem religion, you will find that it split from the Jews like Christians did. Most people don't look at the realities of the history of the region, They only look at the short sightedness of what is happenening today and don't reflect on the impact that might have on the future. All to many people have a singular agenda in mind and will do whatever it takes to force that agenda on everyone else. Unfortunately, Americans - over any of the countries in Africa, Mid East and Europe that I have lived in - feel their agenda is the only right one for everyone. I saw this over and over the most in Eruope. And unfortunately, it is the American GI that caused a lot of this problem. I saw it when they were trying to force those in other countries accept English as the primary language for discussion of whatever the GI wanted to discuss. I saw this when the American GI would rant and rave over the morality of those in a forign country because it was't "our" morality. Americans are right for Americans. That doesn't mean we are right for everyone else. But being an arrogant society, this is what happens - distortion, distrust, dishonisty, and just pure stupidity in thinking we can control all the events in the world.

EnglishDomNW -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 4:40:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW quote: ORIGINAL: pollux I think when a state is confronted with a grave existential threat Such as that felt by the Palestinians ? Well, that's pretty hard to support given the events leading up to, and since, Oslo. Israel withdrew completely from south Lebanon, and Gaza, and demolished all its settlements there, and was in the process of doing the same in the West Bank. Israel turned over chunks of disputed territory to the PA for administration. I'm having trouble squaring all of that up with a grave existential threat. quote: quote: -- as Hezbollah is to Israel -- any talk of "proportional response" is ridiculous. Wars are not stopped by proportional response. Wars are perpetuated by proportional response. That's not to say that it's alright to randomly destroy anything you want, but once you decide to go to war, it's best to be decisive and defeat the enemy with massive, disproportionate force rather than screw around and allow the misery to be prolonged. This war did not start with the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers. We've been over that ground repeatedly. Hezbollah has been harassing Israel for years, under the guise of "resistance" to Israeli occupation of south Lebanon (their real agenda, of course, is the eventual destruction of the state of Israel). Israel withdrew all of its forces from south Lebanon in 2000 -- SIX YEARS AGO. The reason they were there? To stop shelling of northern Israel by Hezbollah. Hezbollah's response to that was to move back into the formerly occupied territory and, instead of living peacefully with their southern neighbor, to resume firing Katyusha rockets into civilian neighborhoods in northern Israel. All the while integrating themselves into the civilian population, and using civilian locations for weapons storage and firing positions. As far as I'm concerned Israel can and should wipe them out using whatever means necessary. "them" being anybody unfortunate to live in the vacinity of your Master Plan, presumably Well, you can get petty and put words in my mouth if you want, but I think it's pretty clear that by "them", I was referring to Hezbollah. quote: quote: They have had chance after chance to live alongside Israel, and they have chosen to reject that option. That's because like a lot of Jews, they probably believe Israel doesn't have a right to exist in the first place and considering the Jewish religion states the same thing until God leads Jews back there and not because Zionists say so, they might have a point. Nice to know where you stand on that issue. Thank you for sharing your opinion with us. Then really, if you disagree with it, refute it, otherwise there's no sense commenting on it. I'm not here to change anyone's point of view, I'm stating my own.

RPutnamJr -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 4:44:44 PM)
I do not believe in proportional responses. I also do not believe in smart bombs. War should be as ugly as it can be, with total distruction so that people will think twice about going to war. When Hezbollah captured the Israeli soldiers in Israel, certain segments of Lebanonese society cheered. Now that Israel has struck back and struck back hard, where is the cheering? Now they say poor me, I'm a civilian, a victum. Evil can only exist when good people stand by and do nothing about it. Those segments that cheered and support Hezbollah should think twice about what they are cheering for. Hezbollah brought Israels wrath down on them and is the cause of their suffering. They supported Hezbollah either directly or morally, thus they got what they wanted. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that yes is also a resistance organization depending on your point of view. No matter how you look at Hezbollah's actions, they chose to fight from Lebanon. If Lebanon does not want to be dragged into the war then Lebanon should do something about securing their boarders and disarming Hezbollah. Now I know that the Lebanonese army is too weak to do the job. And they also do not want to restart a civil war within Lebanon. Since nobody wants to do anything about Hezbollah and disarm them, then the people get what they want. Hezbollah could be disarmed if the total population of Lebanon wanted Hezbollah removed as a military power within Lebanon. The part of the population that is being struck and punished is the same part of the population that supports Hezbollah and cheered their actions. So do I cry for them and say poor poor civilians when they are killed? NO...that is the horror of war and why wars should be ugly and as ugly as can be. Yes I'm sorry children are killed, that though is why war is ugly, innocents get killed. Wars should be avoided at all costs. Hezbollah started the current low scale war and the people cheered...now they are not cheering yet do not want peace either...all they have to do is remove Hezbollah and return the two soldiers. Thus it is up to the supporters of Hezbollah to decide when they have had enough of Hezbollah's actions or when the Lebanonese army wants to put Hezbollah back in its place and reassert its duty to assert control over all of Lebanon. Personally Israel is doing a justified response in the fact that nobody except them can do the job to bring peace around. They are mostly only attacking the areas that Hezbollah is in control, thus limiting civilian casualties to the true civilians. If you support Hezbollah then you are not a civilian in my opinion, you are a potential enemy combatant. Yes all infrastructure is being attacked but that is the same infrastructure that Hezbollah uses. Thus its a legitamit target in my opinion. Proportional response...bullshit...this is war and wars are ugly...enough said.

EnglishDomNW -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 4:49:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Estring Does anyone remember what happened the last time Jews were threatened with extinction? They did not resist, as most of them felt that Hitler could never be that evil. And look what happened. Israel needs to do everything in it's power to make sure that doesn't happen again. It always amazes me when people bring up the Holocaust while talking about Israel. Many Jews are opposed to Israel. Many Jews do not believe Israel should exist, at least not until ordained by God. It's important to make the distinction between Jews and Zionists. Hitler used quotes from Zionists to help persecute Jews in Germany. So did Goebbels.

meatcleaver -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 4:53:21 PM)
No one knows what the future will bring and many powers throughout history have thought themselves too strong to be defeated, have been defeated against all the odds. I wonder what you will think about proportionality then. International law is the best for everyone on the planet. In fact I thought that is what we were supposed to be fighting for in Iraq, along with civilisation. Strange how uncivilised the civilised are when being civilised means being above an animal.

EnglishDomNW -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 5:41:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RPutnamJr I do not believe in proportional responses. I also do not believe in smart bombs. War should be as ugly as it can be, with total distruction so that people will think twice about going to war. When Hezbollah captured the Israeli soldiers in Israel, certain segments of Lebanonese society cheered. Now that Israel has struck back and struck back hard, where is the cheering? Now they say poor me, I'm a civilian, a victum. Evil can only exist when good people stand by and do nothing about it. Those segments that cheered and support Hezbollah should think twice about what they are cheering for. Hezbollah brought Israels wrath down on them and is the cause of their suffering. They supported Hezbollah either directly or morally, thus they got what they wanted. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization that yes is also a resistance organization depending on your point of view. No matter how you look at Hezbollah's actions, they chose to fight from Lebanon. If Lebanon does not want to be dragged into the war then Lebanon should do something about securing their boarders and disarming Hezbollah. Now I know that the Lebanonese army is too weak to do the job. And they also do not want to restart a civil war within Lebanon. Since nobody wants to do anything about Hezbollah and disarm them, then the people get what they want. Hezbollah could be disarmed if the total population of Lebanon wanted Hezbollah removed as a military power within Lebanon. The part of the population that is being struck and punished is the same part of the population that supports Hezbollah and cheered their actions. So do I cry for them and say poor poor civilians when they are killed? NO...that is the horror of war and why wars should be ugly and as ugly as can be. Yes I'm sorry children are killed, that though is why war is ugly, innocents get killed. Wars should be avoided at all costs. Hezbollah started the current low scale war and the people cheered...now they are not cheering yet do not want peace either...all they have to do is remove Hezbollah and return the two soldiers. Thus it is up to the supporters of Hezbollah to decide when they have had enough of Hezbollah's actions or when the Lebanonese army wants to put Hezbollah back in its place and reassert its duty to assert control over all of Lebanon. Personally Israel is doing a justified response in the fact that nobody except them can do the job to bring peace around. They are mostly only attacking the areas that Hezbollah is in control, thus limiting civilian casualties to the true civilians. If you support Hezbollah then you are not a civilian in my opinion, you are a potential enemy combatant. Yes all infrastructure is being attacked but that is the same infrastructure that Hezbollah uses. Thus its a legitamit target in my opinion. Proportional response...bullshit...this is war and wars are ugly...enough said. Yeah. Go get 'em, Rambo. If Iran nukes Israel, remember how ugly war is. If you asked a member of Hezbollah why they attack Israel, I would guarantee you it would translate as "well, they started it" Hezbollah is an evil, yes. But unless you've got your eyes closed, Israel is no angel either. They both need to address themselves. Your (keyboard) warrior approach isn't the solution, it's the problem

Alumbrado -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 5:56:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EnglishDomNW It always amazes me when people bring up the Holocaust while talking about Israel. Many Jews are opposed to Israel. Many Jews do not believe Israel should exist, at least not until ordained by God. It's important to make the distinction between Jews and Zionists. Hitler used quotes from Zionists to help persecute Jews in Germany. So did Goebbels. Never mind that they were a forgery. I wondered how long it would be before those repeatedly ignoring questions about the Arab involvement in the Holocaust and pretending that it has absolutely nothing to with the current conflict, would start slipping in the Holocaust denial material. I'm guessing it won't be long now.

Estring -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 6:20:39 PM)
Many people don't want Israel to exist. Including you it seems. This is called anti-semitism. It is funny how Israel is the only country in the world that is criticised for wanting to defend themselves. And using Hitler and Goebbels to justify your viewpoint basically proves my point.

RPutnamJr -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 6:26:08 PM)
And if Iran nukes Israel, Israel nukes Iran and whole middle east...whole problem solved...mutual distruction...which is why it will never happen. And given the level of intensity between Iran and US...US might do it first just to eliminate the threat from Iran. I never said Hezbollah is not evil, but they are freedom fighters in the minds of Arabs. To us and Israel they are terrorists. They do not fight a conventional war because they know they will loose. Thus they use guerilla tactics which violate the "rules of war". Yes their tactics spread terror and never really accomplish a direct victory. Time is their source of victory through attrittion. Kill enough and the enemy will leave. Problem is that Israel is not going anywhere, they have the military might and wilpower to stay the course. Peace will come when Arabs finally realize that. Moderate Arab states have already come to realize it and now have peace with Israel. Which by the way Israel, did not start the war in the first place (Yes Israel did start one war as a pre-emptive strike against the Arab countries that were preparing to attack Israel). The Arabs did attacked first in order to destroy Israel. Three major wars later and Israel is still there like it or not. When they finally get tired of war then the wars will end and true peace can finally exist. As for Iran...two words...Regime Change.

irishbynature -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 7:01:40 PM)
Yes Level....he's new but he's on the up and up and a great person!!![sm=dance.gif]

Level -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 8:04:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: irishbynature Yes Level....he's new but he's on the up and up and a great person!!![sm=dance.gif] Very well, then, irish, he shall get the benefit of the doubt [:)]

MasterKalif -> RE: Does Israel have the RIGHT to deploy over this? (7/23/2006 8:18:25 PM)
I apologize for not reading this entire thread due to time issue, but on this issue I feel very strongly....I am very much against the Israeli invasion of a sovereign country in this case Lebanon and the tremendous casualties it is inflicting on an innocent population....Lebanon was barely recovering from its 1970's disastrous civil war (in which it is convinient to remember the role of the Israeli defense forces in meddling with the overthrow of president Gemayel of the Falangist party) and the government sadly has no control over southern Lebanon (it has a weak state and army but well disposed)...and Israel has used the kidnapping of two soldiers as an excuse to attack in a cowardly fashion a less powerful neighbor. While it is deplorable what happened to the Israeli soldiers, they are afterall soldiers and know that they can be targeted for attacks and that does not justify bringing war to an entire nation. While Hizbullah is ultimately responsable for this pathetic and sad chain of events, they are the ones who will benefit mostly from the Israeli reaction....as an example we see daily the massive unfair destruction of cities and deaths of civilians who have nowhere to go. The Bush administration's response has been compliant and very lenient with that country, so he should not be surprised that the US holds no moral ground nor support as a "neutral" power in the Arab world whatsoever. In fact the US has become the main backer of Israel in this invasion as much as Israel's non compliance with several UN resolutions, which it has chosen to ignore. I fully support Spain's Zapatero's government in denouncing this cowardly attack on a defenseless nation. If every country in the world chose Israel's path when its soldiers were compromised, the world would be a total chaos, with war everywhere.

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