RE: On punishment .... (Full Version)

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Padriag -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 10:27:26 AM)

I find it interesting, if not amusing, that so many so strongly associate punishment with physical punishment that they can't seem to see beyond that to anything else.  I also find it interesting, if not a little disturbing, that some associate punishment with some form of physical abuse.  As I said before, punishment comes in many forms, and in some cases the most effective will not be physical.  For example, if a slave misbehaves I might simply remove a privilege they had previously earned (negative punishment, ie the removal of a reinforcer as punishment).  Or I might require them to write a five page essay on what they did wrong and why they will not do it again (postive punishment, the application of an aversive stimuli as punishment).  If the slave fails to properly put away my laundry, I may have them repeatedly take out all the laundry, refold it and replace it until they do so perfectly (also positive punishment).  These are all forms of punishment, and nothing I have mentioned involves anyone being beaten, none of it involves cruelty or malicousness.  Contrary to what some insist, punishment does work and can be an effective tool when used properly.



agirl -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 11:13:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: reticence

quote:

ORIGINAL: enthralled

What does the word punishment mean to you?

I even hate the word.  Punishment for me can be anything that communicates to me that I have displeased my dominant.  It can be a look, a shrug of the shoulders, a case of him doing something himself, that I should have done.  Never is play construed as punishment, play is play...

quote:


As a submissive, how does being having to be punished make you feel?


It makes me feel horrible, there is no worse punishment for me than being displeasing.  I try to correct my behavior as quickly as I can. 
I don't need to be beaten to feel better about what I did.  I can apologize and ask for forgiveness.  And I try very hard to not do whatever it was, again.  For me, it is all about peacefulness and tranquility.  My place in his life is to provide as much of that as I can, not to be a punishment seeking drama queen.  That is just me, I know others have different opinions, and if it works for them, fine with me.

(side note) woo hoo, it looks like I have conquered the mighty quote beast  (beaming)


(side note)..I haven't.........lol

Being *punished* is a nasty consequence for breaking a rule, here, if done purposely. (I have very few rules and ALL for good reasons and that I agree with)

I can accept that, because I am an adult and I know exactly what I'm doing if I deliberately think....eg..* Oh, bugger it, I'm having a BRILL time, YEYYYY, THIS is fun..... I'm not going to bed yet*.

Every time I break a *rule* I KNOW I'm doing so..... and I also KNOW that there's a price that goes along with that. It's a simple system that works overall in this relationship. I may not keep to the rules 100% of the time.....but I do ENOUGH of the time for me to know that this way works.

I don't berate myself for *being bad*. I've never been MADE to feel badly about myself for the way I am. I also do not court punishment for the sake of it.

I'm not actually *displeasing* to him if I break a rule......they are there for MY benefit, not his. His ego isn't attached to it.

Being displeasing is a very different matter.......I think I can truthfully say that I do not think that *I* am displeasing. He has never expressed that, in any case. ( though some of my behaviour may piss him off now and then)

I have been unappreciative of him occasionally and THAT is something that I'm not at all proud of. I say sorry...I say why.....and he listens and says what he thinks. Then we move right on.

If I am being annoying, or a bit wild.....he'll simply stop me, or put the brakes on a little.....there's no guilt on my part and no anger on his.

I'm being who I am and he is too. I have more freedom to flourish and be the real me than I've ever had.

There's no need for bad feelings. We've never rowed, we've never argued. He doesn't need to punish me to get his *kicks* and I've no need to be *naughty* to get mine.

It may very well seem a slightly weird way of carrying on...but that's the way it is.

Regards, agirl



















agirl -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 11:24:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I find it interesting, if not amusing, that so many so strongly associate punishment with physical punishment that they can't seem to see beyond that to anything else.  I also find it interesting, if not a little disturbing, that some associate punishment with some form of physical abuse.  As I said before, punishment comes in many forms, and in some cases the most effective will not be physical.  For example, if a slave misbehaves I might simply remove a privilege they had previously earned (negative punishment, ie the removal of a reinforcer as punishment).  Or I might require them to write a five page essay on what they did wrong and why they will not do it again (postive punishment, the application of an aversive stimuli as punishment).  If the slave fails to properly put away my laundry, I may have them repeatedly take out all the laundry, refold it and replace it until they do so perfectly (also positive punishment).  These are all forms of punishment, and nothing I have mentioned involves anyone being beaten, none of it involves cruelty or malicousness.  Contrary to what some insist, punishment does work and can be an effective tool when used properly.


I have to agree, purely from my own circumstances.

I would find it rather awful to be made to feel badly about MYSELF when I am punished. I simply haven't been made to feel that way. It's a *cause and effect* and it does modify.

If I had to fold the damn laundry a trillion times.....you can BET your sweet life that I'm going to try NOT to have to do THAT again.

agirl



Taylore -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 12:31:41 PM)

quote:

After reading on another thread, I was wondering what YOUR ideas are on the word punishment? 
What does the word punishment mean to you?

Punishment takes on many forms. For myself, personally, punishment is the disappointment in his eyes and voice, being made to sit and discuss the reasons why I failed to accomplish something that he requested of me. Punishment is knowing that his faith in me has slipped just a bit; it is guilt that eats away at me because I brought this upon myself.
There is no greater punishment than knowing that I have failed.



CreativeDominant -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 12:41:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

I find it interesting, if not amusing, that so many so strongly associate punishment with physical punishment that they can't seem to see beyond that to anything else.  I also find it interesting, if not a little disturbing, that some associate punishment with some form of physical abuse.


You noted that too, eh? [;)]

quote:

As I said before, punishment comes in many forms, and in some cases the most effective will not be physical.
 

But they're still not seeing the part where you, or I, or others, said that Padriag.

quote:

 For example, if a slave misbehaves I might simply remove a privilege they had previously earned (negative punishment, ie the removal of a reinforcer as punishment).  Or I might require them to write a five page essay on what they did wrong and why they will not do it again (postive punishment, the application of an aversive stimuli as punishment).  If the slave fails to properly put away my laundry, I may have them repeatedly take out all the laundry, refold it and replace it until they do so perfectly (also positive punishment).  These are all forms of punishment, and nothing I have mentioned involves anyone being beaten, none of it involves cruelty or malicousness.  Contrary to what some insist, punishment does work and can be an effective tool when used properly.


Sounds a lot like me...punishment fits the crime, it comes after the discipline, it doesn't have to be physical, it can and does work in an adult relationship.  High five to you, Padriag...I was beginning to wonder if I was stating it in an unclear manner.



agirl -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 1:40:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taylore

quote:

After reading on another thread, I was wondering what YOUR ideas are on the word punishment? 
What does the word punishment mean to you?

Punishment takes on many forms. For myself, personally, punishment is the disappointment in his eyes and voice, being made to sit and discuss the reasons why I failed to accomplish something that he requested of me. Punishment is knowing that his faith in me has slipped just a bit; it is guilt that eats away at me because I brought this upon myself.
There is no greater punishment than knowing that I have failed.


If his faith in me slipped, I doubt he'd punish me.  I think I'd be staring at the end of my relationship, if that happened, frankly.

agirl



cheshireboy -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 2:39:55 PM)

i try to stay away from punishment as much as i can but there are times when i will go after it if it is for the better of the relationship....or the person
 
example:  about to watch a movie and forgot to bring both pillows, She says she doesn't want one, because you thought about yourself only and not her,  if she has no pillow then she her back will hurt and get no sleep at night.  therefore you go get the pillow knowing full well you may get punished, but it is better to take the punishment than to have Her not sleep at night. 
 
cheshire
"if it was only just a smile"



agirl -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 2:54:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cheshireboy

i try to stay away from punishment as much as i can but there are times when i will go after it if it is for the better of the relationship....or the person
 
example:  about to watch a movie and forgot to bring both pillows, She says she doesn't want one, because you thought about yourself only and not her,  if she has no pillow then she her back will hurt and get no sleep at night.  therefore you go get the pillow knowing full well you may get punished, but it is better to take the punishment than to have Her not sleep at night. 
 
cheshire
"if it was only just a smile"


That's an example that really is incredibly alien to me. ....If I *forgot* to bring two pillows and my Master chose to have a bad back/get little sleep etc .....I'd think I'd find that horribly petulant ....and really more than a little weird.

If he didn't want me to rectify my thoughtlessness, then more bloody fool him.

agirl











sharainks -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 7:38:28 PM)

One interesting thing about this thread is how seldom any of the submissives on here seem to feel that physical punishment is needed to correct behavior.  Even more surprising was how many take a negative view of it.  I don't remember seeing anyone post that it was cathartic for them, or that they had to be punished to feel forgiven.

In response to Padriag it does seem that quite a few subs seem to connect "physical punishment" with abuse.  I know that when I was still willing to accept physical punishment it felt abusive to me.  I think often the idea of the pain levels often described as  more severe in punishment takes it to that point.  For me instinct took over and triggered the flight or fight response.  It suddenly seemed that the dominant was out of control and all I wanted was as far away from him as I could get. Thats not exactly relationship building on either end of the equation.



Homestead -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 7:47:46 PM)

Punishment is simply any realistic form of redirection of failed focus or intent.

It is resorted to when discipline or self discipline fails to be effective.

The shame and consternation of BEING punished, only serves to make discipline seem the more attractive alternative.



ownedgirlie -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 10:25:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

One interesting thing about this thread is how seldom any of the submissives on here seem to feel that physical punishment is needed to correct behavior.  Even more surprising was how many take a negative view of it.  I don't remember seeing anyone post that it was cathartic for them, or that they had to be punished to feel forgiven.

I did, in a different thread, and the response to it was less than positive.  In my case there are times punishment is exactly what is needed to resolve my own inner turmoil at having failed.  Master has found that without it, I have a hard time letting go and forgiving myself.  Sometimes punishment is physical, sometimes not.  And the physical is not necessarily a whipping.  There are things that can be done to get a girl's attention, and her head in the right place, without striking. 

Fortunately for me I am not punished often.  When I am, I am grateful to him for caring enough to do so.


quote:


In response to Padriag it does seem that quite a few subs seem to connect "physical punishment" with abuse.  I know that when I was still willing to accept physical punishment it felt abusive to me.  I think often the idea of the pain levels often described as  more severe in punishment takes it to that point.  For me instinct took over and triggered the flight or fight response.  It suddenly seemed that the dominant was out of control and all I wanted was as far away from him as I could get. Thats not exactly relationship building on either end of the equation.

Any time the dominant seems out of control would be terrifying, I would think. I would have serious trust issues if Master were not in control - punishment or otherwise.



Padriag -> RE: On punishment .... (7/25/2006 11:52:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

It may very well seem a slightly weird way of carrying on...but that's the way it is.

Regards, agirl

Actually I was thinking that it sounds like a wonderfully healthy way to carry on.



Padriag -> RE: On punishment .... (7/26/2006 12:11:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

 It's a *cause and effect* and it does modify.

If I had to fold the damn laundry a trillion times.....you can BET your sweet life that I'm going to try NOT to have to do THAT again.

agirl

And that's the purpose of punishment.  Punishment is not about anger, revenge, sadism, getting even, play, etc.  Punishment has one purpose and one purpose only, to correct behavior.  It does this through the application of an immediate and deliberate consequence designed to discourage or weaken the undesired behavior and make it less likely to occur again in the future.

There's an important part of that equation, immediate.  A consequence is always the most powerful in its effect when it immediately follows a behavior.  For example, if a slave does something that pleases me and I immediately praise her for that, that has a more powerful effect than if I wait two hours to praise her for it, and even more so than if I wait 2 days to praise her for it.  The same is true of punishment, its most effective when it immediately follows the behavior.

And that very fact is why sometimes natural consequences don't work to correct behavior.  Take smoking for example.  We all know there are health risks associated with smoking, it can kill you, it can damage your lungs, but these are health risks that take time to happen, they are not immediate.  On the other hand the effect of nicotine from smoking is for many an immediate reward.  That immediate reward wins out over a long delayed punisher (the health risks) and so many people continue to smoke despite the fact that they know its ultimately a bad idea (an example of otherwise mature adults acting irrationally).  This is actually true of a lot of things in life.  For some its uncontrolled spending with credit cards, for others its that chocolate fix they just can't give up (despite gaining 30 lbs when they actually wanted to lose 20 lbs).  Punishments sometimes can be used to take the place of those delayed consequences so that we create an immediate one, this is called an artificial consequence.  Artificial consequences can be used to correct behavior when the delayed natural consequences are not powerful enough to do so.

To go back to the original example of laundry.  There is no immediate natural consequence to putting the laundry away incorrectly.  The wrinkles, the time lost trying to find matched socks, etc. are all delayed consequences that may not be powerful enough (because they are so delayed) to correct the behavior.  So I create an artificial consequence that happens immediately, the slave has to take out all the laundry, refold it and put it away again several times until I'm satisfied they are doing it correctly.  This immediate consequence is powerful enough (chiefly because it is immediate) to correct the behavior.

And that's how punishment should work and should be used.

I hope that didn't sound too clinical, but I'm trying to explain by examples very clinical concepts of behavior modification and punishment in lay terms as best I know how.



Padriag -> RE: On punishment .... (7/26/2006 12:21:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

Sounds a lot like me...punishment fits the crime, it comes after the discipline, it doesn't have to be physical, it can and does work in an adult relationship.  High five to you, Padriag...I was beginning to wonder if I was stating it in an unclear manner.

I don't think we are being unclear, I think some just have very strong and very personal opposing viewpoints.

Regardless, I know what I know.  Too many years of experience and even more years of education have endowed me with a certain knowledge of the effectiveness and utility of punishment in modifying behavior.  Of not only what it is and can be, but how it should be used, why it works, how it works, and more.  All I can do is offer what I've learned to those interested in learning.  I realize there are those who's minds are closed and there is nothing I can do to change that.  But likewise there are those who read these forums looking for information, and it is those who need to see there is more than one perspective on punishment.



Padriag -> RE: On punishment .... (7/26/2006 12:34:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

In response to Padriag it does seem that quite a few subs seem to connect "physical punishment" with abuse.  I know that when I was still willing to accept physical punishment it felt abusive to me.  I think often the idea of the pain levels often described as  more severe in punishment takes it to that point.  For me instinct took over and triggered the flight or fight response.  It suddenly seemed that the dominant was out of control and all I wanted was as far away from him as I could get. Thats not exactly relationship building on either end of the equation.

In reading your reply I found myself wondering... why the severe pain levels?  And that raises another point that I think causes the negative reactions, going to extremes.  There are those who believe that in order to punish, one must go to some extremity, use extreme levels of pain.  But that's generally not effective punishment and to me it sounds more like someone who is either acting out of anger, or someone who simply doesn't know how to punish effectively.  Knowing how to punish effectively means knowing the submissive in question, knowing some of what they respond to and also understanding the situation... in short, punishing effectively means the person administering the punishment has to stop and think, not simply whip out a belt and react.  The laundry example I gave is a good example of effective punishment.  It is a case of the punishment fitting the crime (or more importantly the punishment is directly associated with the behavior being punished), it does not go to an extreme (having to repeat the task 1 to 3 times should be sufficient), it is an immediate consequence, and it does affect the behavior to be corrected.

Some submissives simply can't handle physical punishment, perhaps because of childhood trauma or even things that happened as an adult.  Again, this is where its necessary to know the submissive in question and how they respond.  In those cases there are other forms of punishment that can be used.



sharainks -> RE: On punishment .... (7/26/2006 3:57:46 AM)

Padriag, I don't understand the common notion that somehow physical punishment needs to be more painful myself.  However, that does seem to be a common occurence with punishment both from my own experiences and that of other subs I know.  Even on here you see posts that indicate thats what happens. 

When it comes to punishments it appears that a number of dominants can't think outside the box of "physical." Its like if I can't hit you with something then there is nothing to do.  A bit like parents who can't understand that there are skills you can use instead of spankings. 

Just as filler, in my previous post I stated that the doms seemed out of control.  That was my perception at that point, I don't think it was actually a case of being out of control.  Somehow when the pain was much more severe it seemed that way. 



robert2serve -> RE: On punishment .... (7/26/2006 4:31:18 AM)

personaly, i dislike the word punishment, in my opinion the term corrective discipline, is more to the point.

A well trained sub/slave always needs the form of corrective discipline, just to keep it focused on the main objective. That is the Owner is in complete control and aadjustments are always in need to ensure the proper behavior of the sub/slave.



agirl -> RE: On punishment .... (7/26/2006 8:12:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

In response to Padriag it does seem that quite a few subs seem to connect "physical punishment" with abuse.  I know that when I was still willing to accept physical punishment it felt abusive to me.  I think often the idea of the pain levels often described as  more severe in punishment takes it to that point.  For me instinct took over and triggered the flight or fight response.  It suddenly seemed that the dominant was out of control and all I wanted was as far away from him as I could get. Thats not exactly relationship building on either end of the equation.

In reading your reply I found myself wondering... why the severe pain levels?  And that raises another point that I think causes the negative reactions, going to extremes.  There are those who believe that in order to punish, one must go to some extremity, use extreme levels of pain.  But that's generally not effective punishment and to me it sounds more like someone who is either acting out of anger, or someone who simply doesn't know how to punish effectively.  Knowing how to punish effectively means knowing the submissive in question, knowing some of what they respond to and also understanding the situation... in short, punishing effectively means the person administering the punishment has to stop and think, not simply whip out a belt and react.  The laundry example I gave is a good example of effective punishment.  It is a case of the punishment fitting the crime (or more importantly the punishment is directly associated with the behavior being punished), it does not go to an extreme (having to repeat the task 1 to 3 times should be sufficient), it is an immediate consequence, and it does affect the behavior to be corrected.

Some submissives simply can't handle physical punishment, perhaps because of childhood trauma or even things that happened as an adult.  Again, this is where its necessary to know the submissive in question and how they respond.  In those cases there are other forms of punishment that can be used.


This is what makes any idea of punishment or correction effective, surely.....*KNOWING the person you are dealing with*.

I DO get physically punished, quite severely, at times. ...I KNEW the man, his thoughts, the way he worked.....BEFORE I belonged to him and he knew me, oh so VERY well.

There are a few things that will bring a physical punishment..ie a caning, being whipped etc........but they don't get *sprung* on me....I know damn WELL what actions will bring that type of thing. They've never been given in anger, never out of some kind of revenge. They simply get *administered*. No fuss , no lectures, no emotional screwing around on either side.

He'll use any method that gets the desired result.. If I don't like the results, then I shouldn't be here. I don't like the methods but I am intelligent enough to know their effectiveness.

I don't LIKE being hit....but sometimes, I can *conveniently forget* what it FEELS like to suffer that way....* It's not going to happen *right now*. ...crumbs, tomorrow is WAY away.*

When *tomorrow comes.....I ALWAYS wish that I had followed whatever *rule* it was that I had *forgotten*.....But guess what? .......it's TOO DAMN LATE.

I haven't ever had my mind or my heart bruised by my Master.......though my body can be. I know how to avoid that and I choose not to sometimes because the short term options are just TOO tempting.

I will always be a hedonist...I will always be  a harem scarem girl. There are always going to be times when no matter WHAT consequences lie ahead...I am going to choose my OWN way. I'm just being honest.

Regards, agirl












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