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Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/24/2016 11:59:02 AM   
DocStrange


Posts: 1076
Joined: 6/10/2015
Status: offline 		We have talked consent in the past in the forums. But I found this article to be enlightening and wanted to share. It highlights that many people do not fully understand consent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/as-a-host-of-group-sex-parties-heres-how-i-explain-sexual-consent-a7149946.html

A key quote out of the article:
"Even if she’d previously granted consent, if she lost the ability to revoke that consent, from that moment on, there was no consent."
So if the person passes out, is zoned out in subspace, cannot communicate for whatever reason or cannot revoke consent for any other reason, consent is not given at that point.

I have to applaud the couple who hosts monthly parties. I am not a big party/event goer. I make it to 2 or 3 a years but this is the best I have seen done.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/24/2016 12:17:46 PM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		It's mainly spot on. In the case of people having sex with others they barely know, ir's absolutely correct.

What's missing is between regular partners. So even though I'm asleep, I'm fine with The Man deciding to have sex with me at that point. I can give him consent beforehand. Because I know he won't abuse it. He won't do it when I was up half the night with a stomach pain or a bad cough.

But nobody else gets to assume that because it's okay for him to do this, they can too. In the case of orgies, nobody gets to assume that because Lois said yes to Clark, she will automatically say yes to Perry and Lex.

I disapprove of the "make them beg" comment though because many people find begging humiliating and you don't get to humiliate people without consent.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/24/2016 1:33:10 PM   
needlesandpins


Posts: 3901
Status: offline 		Yeah, not a bad read for idiots that don't understand the concept of not fucking someone that is unconscious because actually you don't have their consent to do that.

I agree that I probably wouldn't go for the repeated asking though. I mean I'd be cool with being asked if I'm sure, and am I still comfortable with this when it's new, but keep asking me like it's a begging game and I'm just going to get pissed of and turn it in to a NO.

Needles

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/24/2016 3:09:20 PM   
ThatDizzyChick


Posts: 5490
Status: offline 		I would find the constant asking to be annoying, the can I do this, can I do that shit, that would get old fast. I would also dislike being asked over and over.
While likely a good set of rules for a monthly sex party, it kinda defeats the point of being D/s to my mind, part of the fun of that is being bent over and fucked when HE wants it.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/24/2016 3:44:13 PM   
Greatlilbabygirl


Posts: 786
Joined: 9/9/2016
Status: offline 		Yes, there is definitely a huge difference between long term consent negotiated relationships and just come and go play partners. And I agree, if a person has to keep begging for consent that's a huge red flag, unless again the begging was agreed to before hand. Otherwise that's straight up harassment

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/24/2016 4:17:20 PM   
DocStrange


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Joined: 6/10/2015
Status: offline 		I have to agree with everyone that the constant begging would be really annoying. I've never been a good beggar anyways LOL

The article is more aimed at first time meets. A long term relationship generally does not have the consent issues. When 2 people have grown to deeply trust each other.

I do think it is great for beginners. To highlight Two key facts. 1) The other person always has the right to revoke consent at any time. 2) If the other person does not have the ability to communicate in some fashion the wish to revoke consent, then there is no consent.

A person being unconscious is a no brainer. But there are many other conditions that can arise the people may not be aware off. Deep subspace is one. My late wife had epilepsy. While everyone is familiar with violet seizures that Epilepsy can cause, fewer people know there is another type of Epileptic seizure, which my wife had, in which the person goes into an unresponsive trance. Diabetics can also trance out.

So it is not always directly obvious that a person has lost the ability to revoke consent.



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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/24/2016 6:22:49 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yup, because if you're not careful, you end up with cases where consent crusaders bring charges against a husband for having sex with his wife when she is suffering from Alzheimer's.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/health/sex-dementia-and-a-husband-henry-rayhons-on-trial-at-age-78.html?_r=0

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

What's missing is between regular partners.


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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/24/2016 7:23:21 PM   
Greatlilbabygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocStrange

I have to agree with everyone that the constant begging would be really annoying. I've never been a good beggar anyways LOL

The article is more aimed at first time meets. A long term relationship generally does not have the consent issues. When 2 people have grown to deeply trust each other.

I do think it is great for beginners. To highlight Two key facts. 1) The other person always has the right to revoke consent at any time. 2) If the other person does not have the ability to communicate in some fashion the wish to revoke consent, then there is no consent.

A person being unconscious is a no brainer. But there are many other conditions that can arise the people may not be aware off. Deep subspace is one. My late wife had epilepsy. While everyone is familiar with violet seizures that Epilepsy can cause, fewer people know there is another type of Epileptic seizure, which my wife had, in which the person goes into an unresponsive trance. Diabetics can also trance out.

So it is not always directly obvious that a person has lost the ability to revoke consent.





Shoot, gags, mummification, certain types of bondage hoods all incapacitate your ability to voice consent. It's a sticky subject and not as black and white as many make it.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/25/2016 12:07:53 AM   
HoneyBears


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From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greatlilbabygirl

Shoot, gags, mummification, certain types of bondage hoods all incapacitate your ability to voice consent. It's a sticky subject and not as black and white as many make it.

This is where nonverbal signals come in with hand/foot gestures and safe word body language. Learn how to tap out, nod, shake or blink S.O.S. in Morse Code if you have to! :p

OP, the consent issue of where does consent begin and when/where does it end or cease to exist in full effect, is endemically misunderstood by many people. Thank you for raising awareness on such a pivotal issue.

No matter how close your affiliation is with another, if there is a flicker of doubt in the area of consent, it is always prudent to err on the side of caution.

So what if you (or they) risk "ruining" the mood of a fleeting moment ....
If you are with somebody with whom you (or they) cannot hit the reset button without incurring disapproval, rejection or disrespect - where a do-over is not possible - then maybe you should not be associating with them in the first place. :/

Nobody needs to be in the business of creating unpleasant memories. In addition, the aftereffects of a traumatic experience can haunt a person for the rest of their life.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/25/2016 1:12:27 AM   
NookieNotes


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Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline 		I read this one, and actually did a writing on it a few weeks/months ago.

I thought it was a very good article for 'pick up play,' and as someone who has run a kink venue, I agree with what she has to say.

That said, I think (and many people) miss an important factor when talking about how we discuss consent, and that is the idea of 'informed consent.'

In order to truly consent, people have to understand what they are consenting to, including potential consequences, side effects, etc.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/25/2016 5:54:29 AM   
Bhruic


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Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

I read this one, and actually did a writing on it a few weeks/months ago.

I thought it was a very good article for 'pick up play,' and as someone who has run a kink venue, I agree with what she has to say.

That said, I think (and many people) miss an important factor when talking about how we discuss consent, and that is the idea of 'informed consent.'

In order to truly consent, people have to understand what they are consenting to, including potential consequences, side effects, etc.


That may be true... but the responsibility to be informed is on the person giving the consent. We consent to, and generally make decisions about things in our daily lives all the time, where we do not know, or cannot predict, the consequences.

Consent is consent. If I give it in ignorance, with no deception on the side of the other party, that's on me.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 9/25/2016 5:55:31 AM >

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/25/2016 8:28:46 AM   
kiwisub22


Posts: 450
Joined: 7/16/2016
Status: offline 		The first time I played with my dom was the first time I had played with anyone. I consented, but had no real grasp on what I consented to. How could I?
Just because you may have seen something done, or read up on it doesn't mean that you know what "it" is truly like.

I'm thinking there is always a degree of uncertainty to consent, because you have (at least) two humans involved. The best we can do is try. And be mindful that things can change in an instant.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/25/2016 8:30:38 AM   
bondageerone


Posts: 522
Joined: 6/16/2016
Status: offline 		there is quite a simple answer to all of these statements,
I as a lesbian switch, only [play] with people who want to.
we find out first of all if there is any absolute [NO NO]
and respect that.
so consent does not come into it. xx

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/25/2016 9:06:58 AM   
NookieNotes


Posts: 1720
Joined: 11/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

I read this one, and actually did a writing on it a few weeks/months ago.

I thought it was a very good article for 'pick up play,' and as someone who has run a kink venue, I agree with what she has to say.

That said, I think (and many people) miss an important factor when talking about how we discuss consent, and that is the idea of 'informed consent.'

In order to truly consent, people have to understand what they are consenting to, including potential consequences, side effects, etc.


That may be true... but the responsibility to be informed is on the person giving the consent. We consent to, and generally make decisions about things in our daily lives all the time, where we do not know, or cannot predict, the consequences.

Consent is consent. If I give it in ignorance, with no deception on the side of the other party, that's on me.


I agree. However, what if it's not deception, but just a lack of clarity? Or the curse of understanding. I know that this might be dangerous for someone with asthma, they may not think to mention it, in the "any medical issues" question, because they are used to living with it, and may not even think about it but once a year...

As a top, I make sure to educated BEFORE I accept consent. I feel it is on me to be clear that I believe they know what they are consenting to.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/25/2016 11:52:14 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		About the begging for consent, I think this was misunderstood. I don't think the top was advised to beg for consent but that if the bottom was begging to be spanked harder or longer or begging for piv, that the begging would constitute enthusiastic consent. Which I agree with. It will, in people who enjoy begging.

About sex in dementia patients, it's a damned difficult problem. But if the doctor determined that she was unable to understand what she was agreeing to, then she should not be having it. He should have challenged the doctor's assessment instead of deciding to commit an act which he knew would be called sexual assault.

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/25/2016 1:46:14 PM   
WickedsDesire


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Joined: 11/4/2015
Status: offline 		i would imagine if there as a real women they would have message methere are none on wated messes x 2 notn one would have

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RE: Consent - An interesting discussion - 9/26/2016 4:37:49 AM   
longwayhome


Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

quote:

ORIGINAL: NookieNotes

I read this one, and actually did a writing on it a few weeks/months ago.

I thought it was a very good article for 'pick up play,' and as someone who has run a kink venue, I agree with what she has to say.

That said, I think (and many people) miss an important factor when talking about how we discuss consent, and that is the idea of 'informed consent.'

In order to truly consent, people have to understand what they are consenting to, including potential consequences, side effects, etc.


That may be true... but the responsibility to be informed is on the person giving the consent. We consent to, and generally make decisions about things in our daily lives all the time, where we do not know, or cannot predict, the consequences.

Consent is consent. If I give it in ignorance, with no deception on the side of the other party, that's on me.


I agree. However, what if it's not deception, but just a lack of clarity? Or the curse of understanding. I know that this might be dangerous for someone with asthma, they may not think to mention it, in the "any medical issues" question, because they are used to living with it, and may not even think about it but once a year...

As a top, I make sure to educated BEFORE I accept consent. I feel it is on me to be clear that I believe they know what they are consenting to.


I agree it is the responsibility of both parties.

The whole consent at first meet can get a bit of a pain in the arse but I would rather be safe than sorry every time. Sure it removes some of the spontaneity but it's a trade off. I'm certainly not giving general consent to anyone on the first or second time for that matter, nor am I accepting it from anyone in that situation.

The truth is paradoxically that you can have more spontaneity with someone you know well and have played with before. That messes with the commonly held fantasy of being taken in all sort of unexpected ways by a complete stranger but I prefer my physical and psychological safety (and that of those around me) to the possibility of a fantasy situation that could go very wrong. What people say (or fantasise) about what they want in advance might be less bearable in reality. There is less risk of misunderstanding and more possibility of recovery and healing in those grey areas with someone you know and trust. That is not meant to be a manifesto for long term relationships, just a reason for additional caution initially.

Besides with BDSM there are all sorts of fun ways to explore consent in a very verbal and direct way by communicating in advance and using safewords and the like. That just doesn't fit with some people's idea of a pure BDSM fantasy first meet.

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