RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 5:34:51 AM)

But, Trump is owned by banks, dangerously so.




WhoreMods -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 5:46:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
As bad as Trump is, Clinton is worse. "If I am elected President we will attack Iran". Yes she said within ten years after that but that means she intends to antagonize them into doing something, so that we have to, because she can only be President in ten years by losing the second term.. Of course I am pretty sure that if elected she will not get a second term. In fact in ten years both of them will be too old anyway.

You've still yet to explain why you believe the circus peanut is any less likely to start a war than Clinton.




Lucylastic -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 5:54:33 AM)

Considering that she actually said was....
quote:

"I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran (if it attacks Israel)," Clinton said in an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America."

"In the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them," she said.


from 2008
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-iran-idUSN2224332720080422

but the trouble with trumps base is they cant handle facts.




WhoreMods -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 5:59:55 AM)

Well, what do you expect from people who are stupid enough to believe that Mexico could be coerced into paying for a wall along the border?




Lucylastic -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 6:04:43 AM)

I have noticed hes been rather quiet about the wall since mexico made him cross.




MrRodgers -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 6:27:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDizzyChick

quote:

Do I need more than two hands to count the real conservatives in power in DC ?

Define "real conservative"

How about Tom Coburn ? He was a repub for example that voted against the MIC. He wanted the generals and admirals cut in half (we won WWII with 1/2) He wants the bureaucracy reduced, offices combined, i.e. limited the size of govt.

He wanted a reduction in congressional committees and sub committees. He wanted congress to work much closer to the 252 days most other salaried people work. He wanted truly vexing partisan social issues handled by constitutional amend.

How about S Mark Warner still in office who ran Va. with about the most center/right polices one could imagine, created a state surplus without raising taxes. A real conservative lobbies for, votes for and actually works toward limited govt. and a reduction in the actual size of govt. A conservative understands that regulations on business for safety and health are necessary.

A conservative who votes against corp. welfare and subsidies as well as entitlements for the poor. A conservative who would actually work for a legitimate reduction in the corp. tax, eliminate the loopholes and keep it that way, rather than the 1500-2000 modifications passed since the 1986 reform. A conservative realizes taxes should reflect an even playing field and should favor labor...not investments.

That's a start. A pragmatist not just pure partisanship as we've seen especially since Reagan.




longwayhome -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 6:28:44 AM)

Trump seems to fit right in with the movement across Europe of "populist" parties of the right, many of whom are led by establishment figures like Trump, who claim to be non-establishment because they have never been in government.

Most of these parties are pro law and order (preserving the income of the rich), and anti-regulation (stripping away the protections of the poor). Whilst claiming to stick up for honest hardworking Joes, they attack the privilege of political power, while seeking to preserve the privilege of the rich.

They claim to be fiercely patriotic and feed on voter discontent, spreading a message of fear based on the narrative that their country is going to hell because the economy, social order and traditional values are being undermined by people on benefits, immigrants, minorities and immigrant minorities on benefits.

This message is used to blame politicians and officials who stand in the way of their own wealth and power by telling the population that those politicians and officials are also standing in the way of the ordinary man and woman. Whether they hate socialists, liberals, conservatives or established libertarians more depends on what is going on in their own country's political systems.

Yes of course Trump's movement reflects decline in respect for conservative politicians. Some people may think that is because he striking a blow for the common man (and woman). In fact he is striking a blow for the rich and the way that they feel constrained even by right wing governments.

Look at country after country, the same thing is happening with subtle variations. A substantial part of their power base comes from voters who feel powerless in their own communities and think that if someone could only keep the immigrants, minorities and benefit claimants in line, they themselves would be better off.

Unfortunately apart from the rallying cry of "getting your country back", if they get into power their lack of a true social conscience may eventually make those who previously voted Republican/Conservative/[insert mainstream right wing party of your choice] feel as if the only people to have benefited are those who are already rich.

The feeling (justified or not) that the establishments in western democracies (including conservatives) have not looked after their own people is behind this, and the right wing populists are a consequence of that.

This stuff isn't going away any time soon.




WhoreMods -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 6:34:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I have noticed hes been rather quiet about the wall since mexico made him cross.

He hasn't breathed a word about Scotland since the comments that were made in response to his bragging about the pound crashing bringing more Americans to his golf club there, either.




longwayhome -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 7:09:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I have noticed hes been rather quiet about the wall since mexico made him cross.

He hasn't breathed a word about Scotland since the comments that were made in response to his bragging about the pound crashing bringing more Americans to his golf club there, either.


Perhaps that's because everything he said during that visit was dodgy or quite frankly hilarious.

Trump tweeted "Just arrived in Scotland. Place is going wild over the vote. They took their country back, just like we will take America back. No games!"

One of his aides had to get him to take the tweet down pretty quickly after a string of people, including reporters, politicians and actors and celebrities pointed out that every single voter area in Scotland had voted against Brexit.

Some of the funnier responses can be found in the following links, including the gem "Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in Europe you touped fucktrumpet"

Donald Trump’s first tweet about Brexit got shut down immediately

People Are Dragging Donald Trump After His Brexit Tweet About Scotland




DesideriScuri -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 7:24:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
What better proof that conservatism has failed than that a conservative can't get the Republican Presidential nomination anymore? You just made my point for me.
But ... over and out, because you're kinda snarky, and that's neither necessary nor pleasant.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Thanks for playing, but no. Trump isn't running on conservative values by any stretch. Conservatism hasn't changed. What has changed is the GOP's adherence to it's party planks. It's not really happening any more.


Aw, hims got his feewings hurt.

It's still not a decay of Conservatism when it hasn't changed. It could be a decay in the support for Conservatism, but it isn't a decay in Conservatism itself.




thompsonx -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 7:26:32 AM)


ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri



It's not a failure of conservatism by any stretch. Conservatism isn't decaying. People are being swayed by the offers of "free" stuff by today's liberals.

Talk is cheap, yours especially. Would it be beyond your abilities to actually articulate what "free stuff" today's liberals are offering?


Trump's ascendancy is a failure of.... the GOP. The GOP has failed to stand up for their party planks.

Could you actually artriculate what those planks are or is this more of your normal obfuscation?


They have taken the same stance that the Whigs took (that ended up with the breakup of the Whigs and creation of the GOP, oddly enough).

You obviously have no clue as to why the republican party came into being. Perhaps if you would stop using your history book for shit paper and read what it says before you wipe you might disabuse yourself of your ignorance.

LMMFAO!! Of course you won't find many real conservatives in DC. That isn't because conservatism has changed, though. It's the people who claim to stand for conservatism aren't really conservatives.


Perhaps you might explane to us what you feel is a "real conservative"

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution


What,exactly and specifically, is your understanding of a consertive interpretation of trhe u.s. constitution?


Personal Responsibility

A corporation is a mechanism for avoiding personal responsibility,yet you consistantly support the existence of corporations


Help for the truly needy

How, exactly and specifically, do you define the truly needy?

Limited Government


Limited to what???please be specific.

Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

Why should food be exempt? Is that because you would be taxed more than your less rotund contemporaries?




thompsonx -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 7:43:29 AM)


ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


Aw, hims got his feewings hurt.

Awe hims got his feewings hurt by me and went crying to the mods. Now that you play in the dungeon you are too cowardly to engage those with whom you disagree.
Poor lil snowflake.


It's still not a decay of Conservatism when it hasn't changed. It could be a decay in the support for Conservatism, but it isn't a decay in Conservatism itself.

Why is it that you cannot articulate what these "conservative values" are?
Is it because you are too stupid to speak in any language except that of platitudes.
Why is it that trumpsters like you have no ability to articulate specifics? Why is it that punkassmotherfuckers like you constantly whine about how it is always "they and them and libs and dems" that do dastardly things that you never are able to quantify?
Why is it that punkassmotherfuckers like yourself who masquarade as conservatives but when your possie behaves as they do you claim that they are rinos and somehow it is "not your fault".
You argue(not discuss) like a nine year old? It is never your fault and it is always someone elses fault.




WhoreMods -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 7:59:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
It's still not a decay of Conservatism when it hasn't changed. It could be a decay in the support for Conservatism, but it isn't a decay in Conservatism itself.

The fact that the voters who've historically voted for conservative politicians now favour these weird pseudo-liberatarians, wannabe feudalist plutocrats and monetarist authoritarians all of whom will bend over backwards to accommodate the religious right instead of traditionalist conservative values isn't a problem, then? Real conservatives (in your terms, if not those of the GOP) have been fleeing American party politics since the '80s. Conservatism may not be decaying, but that's only because the right has spent the last thirty odd years completely ignoring it.




BamaD -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 8:21:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
What better proof that conservatism has failed than that a conservative can't get the Republican Presidential nomination anymore? You just made my point for me.
But ... over and out, because you're kinda snarky, and that's neither necessary nor pleasant.
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Thanks for playing, but no. Trump isn't running on conservative values by any stretch. Conservatism hasn't changed. What has changed is the GOP's adherence to it's party planks. It's not really happening any more.


Aw, hims got his feewings hurt.

It's still not a decay of Conservatism when it hasn't changed. It could be a decay in the support for Conservatism, but it isn't a decay in Conservatism itself.


Trumps rise is tribut to open primaries.
His best showing were when Dems, seeing the fix was in for Hillary, were (legally) allowed to vote in republican primaries.




crazyml -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 8:28:41 AM)

As someone from the left of the centre politically, I wish it were as easy as saying that Tump's rise is a result of a failure among conservatives. But I just don't think that's the case.

I think that both the conservative and liberal "establishments" have really fucked things up, both in the USA and here in the UK.

The trendy liberal-left in the UK is eye-wateringly out of touch with ordinary people, just as Hilary seems to be deeply out of touch with ordinary people.

The rise of Trump is a result of the failure of both the liberal and conservative establishments.




DesideriScuri -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 8:49:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
...
Conservatism may not be decaying, but that's only because the right has spent the last thirty odd years completely ignoring it.


I'd completely agree with 4 word changes:
    quote:

    Conservatism may is not be decaying, but that's only because the right GOP has spent the last thirty odd years completely mostly ignoring it.




WhoreMods -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 10:06:19 AM)

So which traditional conservative values have the Republicans upheld since Reagan handed their party over to the religious right, then?




bounty44 -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 1:19:09 PM)

"What is Conservatism? Author Interview with Jonah Goldberg"

quote:

Bestselling author and National Review senior editor Jonah Goldberg discusses his update to legendary conservative fusionist Frank Meyer’s seminal classic book, What is Conservatism?The book was an attempt to define “fusion” conservatism, and how the different branches of conservatism could work together...

As the title asks, define what is conservatism? Is the Fusionist Conservatism of Buckley and Meyer still applicable today?

Conservatism defies easy definition. In fact, William F. Buckley, the erudite logophile founder of National Review, titled the chapter he wrote for What Is Conservatism? “Notes Towards an Empirical Definition of Conservatism—Reluctantly and Apologetically Given.” You’d think Bill might offer more than just “notes” on the question—and without any reluctance or apologies!

On the other hand, Bill understood that conservatism was more of a project than a strict doctrine. The mansion of conservatism has many rooms. Or to mix metaphors to the point of mangling them entirely, there are many fault lines that run through landscape of the right. The biggest or most important divide might be between those who are anti-left and those who are anti-state. Anti-left conservatives may still be in favor of limited government, but they are less troubled by activist government when the state is advancing conservative ends. Self-described anti-statists might be very culturally conservative (or they might not!) but they think the government should mind its business. It’s important to keep in mind that self-described libertarians are only a segment—an important one—of the anti-statists faction. And even among the libertarians, there are countless subspecies...

I think conservatism basically boils down to a kind of philosophical gratitude. Gratitude captures everything in Friedrich Hayek about the importance of trial-and-error and spontaneous order, and it covers everything in Russell Kirk and G. K. Chesterton about the “wisdom of the ancients” and tradition being democracy for the dead. Trying to pin down a single doctrine of conservatism misses the point. We are trying to conserve those elements of Western civilization and the American Founding from which we derive our liberties, our culture, and our prosperity. We begin that process by asking ourselves, “For what should we be grateful?”


and some bonus material:

quote:

You’ve also written the amazing historical bestseller Liberal Fascism. Do you believe that Bernie Sanders is ushering in a new era of socialism? And what exactly do you believe “democratic socialism” is?

Democratic socialism is a phrase American leftists use to signal that they don’t want their preferred welfare state to murder a whole bunch of citizens, they just want it to pay for everything. And that’s fine. After all, there is an important distinction between, say, Denmark and North Korea.

I do think we are on the cusp of a new era of statism. Let me put it this way.

I think socialism and nationalism are basically the same thing when it comes to policy. When you nationalize health care, you are socializing medicine. When you nationalize an industry, you are socializing it. The Democratic Party managed to drag Hillary Clinton across the finish line ahead of Bernie Sanders. But the heart and soul of the party faithful is with Sanders.

The GOP, meanwhile, has signed up to back a populist nationalist. Trump very much sounds like he’s anti-left, but he is decidedly not anti-state. He wants government to be stronger and bigger and to “take care of everybody.”

I think we may be heading into an era very similar to what we saw in the 1930s, when politics was defined largely as a competition between different statist factions. Ironically, it was that era that shaped the hearts and minds of the contributors to What Is Conservatism?


don't have the link for it, but I trust if you wanted, you could find it.




mnottertail -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 1:31:19 PM)

We are trying to conserve those elements of Western civilization and the American Founding from which we derive our liberties, our culture, and our prosperity. We begin that process by asking ourselves, “For what should we be grateful?”

This then says that there are no nutsuckers who are conservative, and no right wing at all that are conservative either. Never mind no republicans or libertarians.

If you are reading Hayek and spewing free market communism, western civilization and the American Founding are the furthest thing from that conservatism.




bounty44 -> RE: Donald Trump’s rise reflects American conservatism’s decay (9/30/2016 1:31:39 PM)

this is from ~15 yrs ago and I trust has some relevant aspects:

(no doubt it'll hack off some of the comrades)

quote:

Conservatism Versus Liberalism: Does Philosophy Really Matter?

The foundational belief system you hold determines your views on specific issues. You then have strong opinions you feel are right. If you look at the core beliefs of Conservatism and Liberalism, you can understand and explain the different stands taken on specific issues and the vision each has for our country. These beliefs are opposites in every area and diametrically opposed.

C- Families know best how to raise their children. They need to be strengthened and have the right to raise their children the way they want.
L- It takes a “village” not a family to raise a child. Families need government help and oversight. Cradle to grave involvement is optimal.

C-Society is composed of individuals to be judged on their individual merit. Values individualism, self-reliance, and independence.
L-Sees society as composed of groups: black vs. white, old vs. young, rich vs. poor, male vs. female. These groups are pitted against each other. Stirs up racial and class envy and division.

C-Individuals are responsible for themselves and their actions. Crime should be punished. Evil exists and good should fight against it.
L-Society is responsible for individuals. Man is inherently good and something causes him to do wrong.
They talk about how we need to change society when someone does wrong. Even terrorists need to be understood.

C-Limit to how much can be taken from people to give to others. Welfare should help people to become independent (not dependent) and given to those truly incapable of taking care of themselves.
L- Supports welfare state. Government is morally justified taking from those that have and giving it to others because people are entitled to basic needs including housing, food, healthcare, income, etc. even if they are able to work.

C- Promotes equal justice.
L- Promotes social justice.

C-Competition is good.
L- Competition is unfair.

C-Supports lower taxes for all because people have a right to what they earn.
L-Supports progressive taxation with high taxes for the rich in an attempt to equalize incomes through redistribution of earnings.

C-Less government is better. Wants only necessary regulation of business, economy, and individual lives, resulting in more freedom.
L-More government is better. Many regulations are necessary to achieve a more fair & just society which is government’s primary role, resulting in less freedom.

C-Limited federal government with more power given to state and local governments.
L-Powerful centralized federal government with limited state and local control.

C-People and property rights are more important than environment. Supports conservation and development and use of our natural resources along with the development of green technology by private enterprise and when it is economically feasible and self-sustaining. Opposes cap and trade due to its high cost and negative impact on our businesses and way of life.
L-Environment more important than people and property rights. Supports rationing and limiting access to natural resources. Focuses on green technology subsidized by the government. Supports cap and trade to redistribute and control energy usage.

C-Wealth is good. All have an opportunity to be wealthy (The American dream). Creates a better life for all through entrepreneurship.
L-Wealth is bad and unfair. Promotes class warfare.

C-Equal opportunity without discrimination. Recognizes people make different choices with what they have and that it isn't government's role to make things fair. Doesn’t seek equal outcomes.
L-Equal results through such things as quotas, free college, and equal pay for unequal work. Government has to level the playing field in order to have equal opportunity. Seeks equal outcomes.

C- Supports healthcare reform that gives consumers choices.
L - Supports government takeover of healthcare and limiting of consumers' choices.

C-Judicial restraint with strict interpretation of laws according to the Constitution and original intent.
L-Judicial activism: enacting social policy changes via court rulings. Constitution is seen as outdated and in need of change.

C-Free market economy.
L-Government regulation of economy.

C -Free market creates jobs.
L -Government creates jobs.

C-Business is good: creates jobs & improves lives. Let free market supply and demand adjust practices and employers and employees determine wages/benefits.
L-Business is evil: out to exploit employees, environment, and consumers. Needs to be regulated to protect consumers, employees, and the environment. Government regulates employee benefits.

C-Traditional morality including traditional family and values. Absolute standards of right and wrong. Absolute truth. Sees standing against wrong as a moral duty.
L-Tolerance of all lifestyles & beliefs except those that hold views they consider to be intolerant. No absolute standards of right and wrong. Moral relativism.

C-Right to free speech must be supported even if it offends.
L-Right to free speech is limited to speech that does not offend. (Political correctness)

C-Peace through strength via a strong military.
L - Peace through appeasement, cooperation, and understanding others' views. Dislikes showing and exercising strength.

C-Supports a missile defense system.
L-Opposes a missile defense system.

C-American sovereignty comes before globalism.
L-Globalism comes before American sovereignty.

C-Sees America as good: the best hope for the world. Believes in American exceptionalism.
L-Sees America as flawed: racist, homophobic, imperialistic, sexist, ageist and no better than other countries.

C-Western cultures are superior to others without rights, freedom, and respect for life.
L-All cultures are equal. Can’t pass judgment on any even if they don’t value freedom, rights, and life.

C-God is a necessary part of a moral society. Religion makes people good when they know they have to answer to God.
L-State is secular (without God and hostile to Christianity). Seeks to eliminate references of God through separation of church and state.

C-Rights emphasized: Freedom, Parental, Property, Religious, Guns, Life.
L-Rights emphasized: Civil, Privacy, Secularism, Reproductive.

Liberalism (progressivism) wants to pull us further towards a welfare state with an ever-expanding web of social entitlements and more federal power and control over every aspect of our lives. Liberalism sees a nation of people incapable of solving their problems without the government’s help.

Conservatism believes a powerful federal government limits personal freedom. It seeks to stop the growing entitlement programs, encourage individual responsibility, and return Constitutionally mandated power to the states. Conservatism sees a nation of people capable of solving their own problems with minimal government help, as long as the people are free.

The Republican Party's platform is primarily Conservative and the Democratic Party's platform is primarily Liberal. This does not mean that every Republican is a conservative or that every Democrat is a liberal. However, if you watch the stands the parties take on issues, you will see that the Republican Party is more conservative and the Democratic Party is more liberal in their stands on issues and policies and the direction they want to take us.

If you are still unclear as to what the differences between the philosophies are consider this:

If either Party or philosophy held all 100 US Senators, all 435 Congressionmen and the President for 10 years, what would our nation be like if Conservatives held them compared to what would it be like if the Liberals held them?

I propose to you that we would have two entirely different nations.

It is truly a time for choosing. Which nation do you want?


http://www.conservatismvsliberalism.net/




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