RE: Emotional Masochism

RE: Emotional Masochism (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 8:49:38 AM)
Thanks beingchewsie, If it exists as a kink, and I think it does in your case from what you would describe, then I would think that is was unfair to use the term in a derrogatory way. I think that it would exist under the main heading of masochism, along with physical pain, humiliation, objectification, and now also emotional masochism. The other things that people describe here such as "drama queens" would not fit into it because that is not part of the kink.. there are some physical masochists that are drama queens too. In fact like you said beingchewsie, he wouldn't tolerate you if you were drama.,.. and if there are doms and subs that get off on the ignoring of feelings thing, I doubt many of them would put up with topping from the bottom..smiles.... Thanks Susan and beingchewsie.. clarified for me, and now I can argue that people shouldn't use the term to imply mental instability or character flaw, just like they shouldn't for physical masochists.. unless someone wants to come forward and debate that..smiles..(Im in the mood for a healthy debate with intelligent people this morning)

SusanofO -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 8:50:44 AM)
Great thread topic, julia! - Susan

Caretakr -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 8:53:26 AM)
Some people don't feel that they are really submitting, unless they are suffering. I never understood the martyr mindset, but it's out there.

popeye1250 -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 9:05:51 AM)
Cinful, ok, now I understand! Thanks for the clarification.

SusanofO -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 9:11:29 AM)
Some of us like it. With all dues respect, if I am not mistaken, I also likened this to (for the submissive anyway) the feeling that is produced by (for me) experiencing Objectification, as can happen in pony play or just plain despersonalization (in whatever bdsm context). - Susan

juliaoceania -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 9:31:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Some of us like it. With all dues respect, if I am not mistaken, I also likened this to (for the submissive anyway) as the feeling that is produced by (for me) experiencing Objectification, as can happen in pony play or just plain despersonalization (in whatever bdsm context). - Susan You know, I used to have these really really naughty objectifcation fantasies. I do not know why, they were just there. I played with it a little by engaging in verbal humiliation when I was vanilla. After I found WIITWD some of the humiliation fantasies went away, but I still love to be objectified by my Dom at times. It isn't the humiliation kind anymore, it is the being used thing that gets to me, the objectification. He doesn't ignore me though... although I crave him to take his pleasure without thinking of mine.. weird I know. Outside of sex, in our 24-7 interactions, I never crave that though. I love attention (although I am not a drama queen to get it and can keep myself entertained..smiles). I wouldn't enjoy being treated this way outside of sex. Perhaps there is a little emotional masochism of the sexual variety in me though? Seeing I just liked to be used that way sexually speaking. On Edit:I wish LA was here, she could make some sense out of it all, and maybe post some jerked threads..smiles

SusanofO -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 9:41:43 AM)
Mine are pretty much confined to sex, too. If someone explained to me how these feelings could be played out outside of sex, or near sex, maybe I'd be interested, not sure. I feel the same way you do - it's not really even humiliating for me - I enjoy it too much for that. - Susan

popeye1250 -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 9:57:50 AM)
Some people like to be used as "furniture" by way of "objectification." For example they'd be a coffee table in front of a couch or something like that on all fours while their Master /Sir used their back to put his drink on or put his feet on. Is this the type of thing you mean? Outside of sex this is what came to mind to me.

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 12:03:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Some people like to be used as "furniture" by way of "objectification." For example they'd be a coffee table in front of a couch or something like that on all fours while their Master /Sir used their back to put his drink on or put his feet on. Is this the type of thing you mean? Outside of sex this is what came to mind to me. Yes, that's one aspect of it. Being used as an ashtray, being made to sit on the floor, and ignored while the dom does other things, not being allowed to sleep in the bed. These are other possible examples.

Vancouver_cinful -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 12:23:37 PM)
If we are talking about the dominant actually making the submissive feel as though their feelings and needs are irrelevant, and the sub deriving pleasure from it, then emotional masochism might actually be a good term. Nonsexual applications, might include: the sub is not allowed to contact the dominant, or request anything; being left in a cage while the dominant is busy with other things; having to sit in a corner and watch a dom pleasure another sub with no hope of their own release; not having the right to give any input at all into a scene...The dom would ignore tears, or begging for comfort or sexual release, the list is endless. It's all in how it's perceived by the players, I guess. In a way then objectification does fit in with this, if the sub suffers from the objectification. For some it may be peaceful, and then it would simply be objectification, I guess.

juliaoceania -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 12:37:02 PM)
cin, My point is partially that there are certain people even in the lifestyle that use this as a pejorative term, if it is indeed a kink, if everyone involved is happy, then it is just like any other kink in WIITWD. I do not see people saying negative things about other kinks, why this one? Why is it seen as some dysfuntion? Some people enjoy TPE, Im sure if I stepped on my soap box and pronounced some sort of negative connotation surrounding the mental health of those who dig this I would be shouted off my box, I do not know why it is acceptable to infer someone's kink is inherently dysfunctional and that those who enjoy is are into drama or borderline personality or something.

popeye1250 -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 1:28:05 PM)
Pony play, now there's an area I have no experience in at all. I've seen pictures of course. I think there is a Dom in the upstate area here who has a "ranch" as it were for that. I remember reading somewhere in a local group something about it. Yes, that could be a way of objectification too. [:)]From what little I've seen of it it looks like it could be a lot of fun! I suppose you could do it indoors but it would be much more fun outside on private land of course. I do like how they attach the tails though![:)] And it would have a lot of B&D aspects to it as well! Leather, harnesses, bit gags, etc. Hmmmmm..... I've been in this lifestyle for about 18 years now but I've learned quite a few things in this site! Great topic Julia!

popeye1250 -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 1:42:59 PM)
Cinful, thanks for those ideas as well. As for "objectification" in a "sexual" way I suppose I could say to a sub or slave; " tonight after dinner at some point I'm going to use you like a slutty fuck doll so you'd better be ready for it!" or something to that effect to highten the apprehension.

popeye1250 -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 2:44:19 PM)
Cinful, read your above post again, now I understand it better. So it may or may not be a "punishment" for a slave or sub depending on their outlook. That's something that I think would need to be discussed between the people involved . Some may not care for emotional masochism and crave a more "personal" connection while some would. And some might crave emotional macochism only at certain times and not all the time. Interesting! As for Pony Play does anyone in here have any experience with it? That looks like an area that I might be interested in exploring. Looks like it would be fun! I can imagine sitting around a campfire at night cooking burgers and steaks with the pony girls tethered to a tree, wrists bound to their waistes and going over and feeding them cheeseburgers and beans and carrots! "Good girl! Eat that right up!"

justheather -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 2:59:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Caretakr Some people don't feel that they are really submitting, unless they are suffering. I never understood the martyr mindset, but it's out there. I appreciate your qualifying your statements as opinion by acknowledging that it is you who does not understand what someone else may understand and embrace fully, deeply, richly and with great rewards. For the sake of discussion, I think it would be beneficial for us to remember that there is a difference between being "submissive" and being a "masochist"...and as everyone present knows, there are threads out there that expound on that concept. For those who have not yet committed KOM's diagram to memory, perhaps LA will show up and point us in their direction. Im usually careful with how I use the word "martyr" because in my mind it carries a negative connotation. When I was little, if we were to act out in a passive-aggressive sort of way, my mother, who lacked access to that kind of terminology, would say something very insightful like: "Oh please, Heather, nobody likes a martyr!" Thousands of religious people who find peace and a connection to their God in learning about the lives of those who were literally martyred may have a very different reaction to the word. Is it not possible that "suffering" is only one way to process purposefully-induced negative emotions and that another way to process them would be to frame them as exercises in detachment? Would it not be also valid for a person to use "suffering" as a spiritual exercise, if they were to be able to do it in an honest, open and responsible manner? What makes physical pain (which you could describe as "suffering") an acceptable and "healthy" kink but emotional pain not so?

Lordandmaster -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 3:54:20 PM)
Well, I think part of the problem is that we're confusing the phrase with a real thing. The phrase "emotional masochist" isn't a thing; it's a phrase that people use to refer to a thing, and the thing that people have in mind isn't always the same. I'm getting the sense that everyone pretty much agrees that there are people who need humiliation, degradation, objectification, and so on in order to be sexually and emotionally fulfilled--and that there's nothing emotionally or psychologically wrong with people like that--and ALSO that there are people who have real emotional problems who can't sustain a relationship and have a way of bringing on drama and stress and basically ruin their own life (and the life of anyone who gets close to them). Which one of those two types is the "emotional masochist"? I really think this is a case where you have to find out what people mean by a phrase before you can understand what they're saying. I'm not prepared to say that either usage is correct or incorrect. quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania My point is partially that there are certain people even in the lifestyle that use this as a pejorative term, if it is indeed a kink, if everyone involved is happy, then it is just like any other kink in WIITWD. I do not see people saying negative things about other kinks, why this one? Why is it seen as some dysfuntion?

juliaoceania -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 4:37:09 PM)
Lam, I personally feel it is a kind of denigration just like when vanillas make fun of us. I understand that some terms become colloquial in a sense, but that masochism of any sort being tied to being unhealthy just isn't true, many vanilla women are drama queens and borderlines... these things have nothing to do with masochism. It was not something I was sensitive about until I realized I have these tendencies and it was hard to accept it because how masochism is viewed as a whole..It is understandable that some involved in WIITWD would tend to think a certain way having heard masochism is negative their whole entire life

cynthiamarie -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 5:07:53 PM)
quote: Can I ask what exactly is painful about this mindset that it would be considered masochistic? To me the term means wanting physical pain and suffering to derive some sort of sexual satisfaction.. and that does not mean orgasm necessarily. Okay, I do call myself an emotional masochist and I'll try to explain why. Some of us were raised seeing how much of a bitch love can be...and decided we wanted nothing to do with it. As a kid, I dreamed of a nice, comfy middle of the road relationship with a best friend without all the threat of things getting ugly and staying ugly. Then I kept getting crushes of the unrequited love variety; the person I wanted most, because of the sheer intensity of my feelings, would be the one I would avoid like the plague. Chicken? Not really. It was a decision I made to keep my life on an even keel, and to avoid being vulnerable to being abused. The emotions I felt were intense, in spite of my wishes, and would be agonizingly beautiful and part of something precious. I can't separate emotional love from pain; every past vanilla relationship I've been in didn't meet my needs for transparency, closeness, trust, and security...and though I loved, it hurt to be in the relationship. The emotional pain was simply the price I had to pay to be with them. In spite of everything, I would never want to erase the memories I have. Having active cancer for 9 years made the thought of love (I can't be in a sexual relationship without falling for someone) even more bittersweet. I've gone into an unexpected remission, and all of a sudden I have to look to the possibility that the next love might not be my last love, and I love/hate that all at the same time too. The tension and sweet pain of...gambling everything...to see if something can work out...fans herself. To translate emotional masochism into a physical comparison: It must be like being tied up and blindfolded, waiting to see if there will be intense pain or intense pleasure or a mixture of both...and not asking to be untied and set free. quote: I've often heard the term used for people who bring trauma and heartache into their lives in order to "suffer" because it gives them a reason to feel sorry for themselves, etc...but didn't get what it meant in BDSM terms. I've never "done this" to feel sorry for myself. Sometimes pain and suffering is what makes us feel more intensely ALIVE...as long as it's a good pain. [;)] My angle of approach on this might be strange to anyone who hasn't spent years of their childhood feeling numb 24/7 (from traumas, episodes of dissociation and dissociative amnesia)...feelings for a person can be wonderful/horrible/exciting/agonizing...and the most dangerous thing anyone can do.

juliaoceania -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 5:19:54 PM)
That will give me something to think about.. thanks

KnightofMists -> RE: Emotional Masochism (7/23/2006 6:15:12 PM)
It’s a tricky thing taking definitions from the mainstream terminology and attempting to apply it into the Lifestyle that we live. In particular the terms like Masochist and Masochism, Sadist and Sadism. I have very specific definitions of these words. Sadism is an act in which gratification is obtained by inflicting physical or mental pain on a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or on oneself. Sadist is a Moral and Healthy person who gains gratification from inflicting pain upon a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or on oneself. Masochism is an act in which gratification is gained by enduring the infliction of physical and mental pain by a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or by oneself. Masochist is a Consenting Moral and Healthy person that gains pleasure from pain inflicted upon them by a Consenting Moral and Healthy Person(s) and/or by oneself. My definitions are specific in that I don’t equate Sadism and Masochism as a sexual pleasure. My experience as taught me that a person can enjoy being a Sadist or a Masochist without the sexual energy or arousal. I also differentiate between mainstream definition and my own by putting basic constructs that make the acts of sadomasochism as being acceptable to me. Such as participates are Consenting, Moral and Healthy. I also specifically recognize that acts of Sadomasochism are acts of pain, both mental and physical. The mental aspect indicating them being intellectual as well as the Emotional thoughts of a person. Granted some individuals engage in masochism that can be construed as emotionally painful or as you express Emotional Masochism. But, I don’t consider this aspect as being necessarily destructive to a person. However, thou my logic dictate that it is possible. I have never met anyone that first into mental pain alone and is in a consenting situation and is of moral character and is a mentally healthy individual. I have however, met a few individuals that have serious mental issues or project their neurotic need of emotional pain on nonconsensual persons. Logic may dictate it being possible, but practice seems to be a tricky business.

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