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Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 4:52:54 AM   
SavageEu


Posts: 197
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		As I watch the sun rise I had a thought for a subs view on this. I had the idea that it might be good, especially for begining subs, to have both safe words when playing to let them signal when the pain or whatever is just too much. And for panic words, more for the mental stress they are under. My thoughts were if someone new, or even experienced but unnerved, had a moment where they just could not deal with submitting or other preassures they were feeling they could use a panic word of some sort to signal that they wanted to be treated as a person and not a sub. I know a sub is a person but the expectations are different to me. A sub saying 'No I don't want to do this' might be punished for disobeying or atleast be treated differently than a vanilla relationship where it happened. The panic word would signal that she can not handle being a sub at that particular moment and needs a break.

I mainly imagine this happening with a new sub, but I am unsure if this is really a good idea or not. It gives those who are not sure a chance to take a break and talk about whats not working in a more equal setting in thier mind. I know some subs here see it as a challenge to do what they do not want to do. So is the trial by fire, the Dom's firm hand in all situations a better way to handle it since having a panic word esssentially gives the new sub an 'out' when things start to really push her limits.

Perhaps this is just another way of saying its time to renegotiate as I have seen mentioned before but was not really sure what that entailed.
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 5:29:59 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 4470
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		i usualy just say, this is to mutch.

(in reply to SavageEu)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 9:18:50 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Not everyone agrees with safewords. I use a color system and direct communication. Some people feel they are taking power away from their dominant by invoking a safewords,.... but I do not feel that I am. He does not feel that I am. A power dynamic is in the mind of the people engaging in it after all.

It depends on the couple to whether or not they use them. I want to experiment with interrogation scenes, so it will probably be a good idea to be comfortable with them, seeing that nothing else I would say with direct communication would stop the scene. If someone wanted to do a rape scene it is also crucial to have a safeword to stop the scene

Personally speaking I do not see the purpose of remembering a panic word. If I am panicking I do not want to be trying to remember which word to use. Panic also has very distinct physical manifestations.. I would have to wonder why a top didn't see a bottom was panicking and stop on their own. I would recommend one word to stop the scene in an emergency and then find out after all is stopped what is going on with your bottom by direct communication. Code words do not replace plain asking the bottom what is wrong. The top should be mindful of the bottom at all times anyways.

_____________________________

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(in reply to SavageEu)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 10:21:17 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Again, I think that's too complicated.

Why not just directly communicate what's going on? 

Saying "I don't want to do this" isn't the same as refusing to do it.  As well, it doesn't give you any real information beyond the slave simply not wanting to do it.  In both the case of your "word" and the slave simply SAYING I don't want to do this- it's smart to then ask the slave more questions and get more information.

Keep it simple and direct.

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"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 10:23:42 AM   
NurseKitty


Posts: 33
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Syracuse, New York
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


Personally speaking I do not see the purpose of remembering a panic word. If I am panicking I do not want to be trying to remember which word to use. Panic also has very distinct physical manifestations.. I would have to wonder why a top didn't see a bottom was panicking and stop on their own.


Depending on the circumstance, a bottom/sub might want to be brought to the edge of panic and thrown over, knowing that s/he has their safewords to use if it gets to be too intense.  I do think this type of edge play is something that should be very carefully negotiated ahead of time however, and that it is the Dom/Top's responsibility to continually check in with the sub/bottom, something as simple as asking if they remember their safeword and receiving an affirmitive, or possibly giving two firm squeezes on the hand and receiving two back as a means of verifying things are still under control.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I would recommend one word to stop the scene in an emergency and then find out after all is stopped what is going on with your bottom by direct communication. Code words do not replace plain asking the bottom what is wrong. The top should be mindful of the bottom at all times anyways.


We have two safewords during scene play....or for that matter anytime they might be warranted.  Yellow means essentially something is going on that I can no longer tolerate but I don't want to stop entirely, and Red means a definite STOP.  Either stopping a particular activity or the entire scene.  Fortunately for me, I belong to a Dom who is very aware (perhaps even moreso than I am) of not only what he's doing but how I'm handling things, and I think I've only ever said 'yellow' twice before He's had a chance to ask "was that a yellow, then?".  I did say red one time only...for some reason I couldn't tolerate the flogger one night, which is usually one of my favorite things.  He honored my safeword immediately.

Above all else, I think it's most important for all parties involved to recognize and know without a doubt that each one will honor the use of a safeword, regardless of how out of character or inappropriate (?) their usage may seem.  This goes both ways too; a Dom wants to know their sub will indeed be responsible enough to use a safeword if needed, and a sub needs to know when/if they use one it will be honored.  No matter how familiar partners are with each other, we are all still individuals whose needs/wants/desires/limits fluctuate on a continual basis.

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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 12:14:15 PM   
diamonddreamlove


Posts: 770
Joined: 5/19/2006
Status: offline 		Yellow!!!! and then we talk about it.

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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 12:28:06 PM   
windchymes


Posts: 9410
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		I agree that, while I am in favor of some kind of safeword system, breaking it down into too many categories is micromanagement and overkill.  To take care of the immediate need of the sub/slave, all you need to do is slow down the action, or stop it. You can get into the analysis and discussion about it later.  Till the cows come home, if you really need to. 

I'm always in favor of simplicity, you get more done that way.

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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 2:13:29 PM   
SavageEu


Posts: 197
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		That is all true, I suppose I was over analysing a bit. 

(in reply to windchymes)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 4:59:39 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Actually what you said has some merit for the newbie sub and a new relationship..It never has to be in the context of "play" but more in the context of everyday interaction a kind of way for you and your new pet to get to know and understand each other in the beginning.Of course once the common comfort levels have been found then more than likely it will go by the wayside so to speak..be well..Tempting

(in reply to SavageEu)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 5:00:51 PM   
peta


Posts: 29
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline 		I do not feel you were over analyzing at all.

Each relationship will have its own set of rules to follow.  Personally if I were able to communicate to a Dom that I needed alone time in an effective way I would appreciate that he thought of my feelings and be grateful for that space.

Maybe a panic word is not needed, but the thought is a good one.

peta

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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 6:17:14 PM   
SavageEu


Posts: 197
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		At times I get lost in the minutia of something, it is a trait I have to keep a close eye on. It is useful in my hobbies especially metal working where the small things can make all the difference but I have learned to take a step back at work and in my home life from time to time to make sure I am not doing it too much.

I think in terms of structure, especially where structure may help when someone is too timid or new to something to know how they should express things. I certainly can understand that once you get used to someone it is easier without the formality, though I do like formality. All part of the learning process.

(in reply to peta)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/23/2006 8:35:22 PM   
sweetbbwsub31


Posts: 331
Joined: 3/22/2006
Status: offline 		I find that yellow for slow down and red for stop works every time. If it doesn't ... he is history.
 
sub tara

(in reply to SavageEu)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/24/2006 8:58:14 AM   
TxBadMan


Posts: 198
Joined: 4/7/2006
From: Moody, Texas
Status: offline 		The best safeword that I have ever heard was the little hitch in my girls voice, and the tightening of her body that said 'OH God please, I have had enough"

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Chris



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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/25/2006 2:34:14 AM   
amoretta


Posts: 57
Joined: 7/23/2006
Status: offline 		** Yes I know this will probably offend some... no offense is intended.. simply trying to share a different point of view. If safe words and/or panic words work for you in your relationship, that is wonderful!!**

When I am bottoming I don't ever use safe words; I simply don't believe in them for me.

Reasons:

I was brought into this lifestyle with people who thought they were joke brought on by the online culture of bdsm.. online was a joke to them and so, SSC, safewords, etc. were simply scoffed at. Whether you agree with this or not, its simpy how I was brought in and therefore it simply does not occur to me when I am in a scene and something is seriously wrong to try to say "red" etc.

I have grown and learned more since then and while I do not hang out with the same types of people, I still don't believe in safe words (nor SSC for that matter.. RACK is much better).

That was for me though and I continue not to use them and unless someone is completely new I generally don't advise them either. My reasons for myself and for others is that it seems to be to be a shirking of responsibility.

From the bottom's perspective, if you are in private so there is no DM sitting around.. and you think that if you just say red any top will stop you would be wrong. Instead of placing the responibility on your shoulders to properly get to know and trust this person, you are assuming that saying a simple word will do the trick. I think it is irresponsible to place that kind of weight on a word system instead of on research, getting to know someone, playing in a public forum if needed at first, etc. Of course, this all being said .. any responsible top would of course stop... :)

From the top's perspective.. and this is the more weighty one in my opinion. Whereas I would hope that the worst case senario written about above for bottoms would happen rarely.. the top I feel shrugs responsibility when leaving it up to the bottom to stop the scene or to check in on it. It is the top's responsibility to stay in tune with the bottom. It is the tops place to be aware of the temperature of the bottom's hands and feet to check for bondage tightness, to make sure they are in a healthy physical state and appropriate emotional/mental state. I have seen way too many tops take the attitude that if using safe words they will simply stop hitting when the girl or boy says, "red." That attitude to be blunt.. disgusts me. It is rare that a top can be called a psychic so I am not suggesting that they should know all that goes through the bottom's mind, but by watching their body language, keeping a watch of other clues, and so forth should tell the top when to lighten up, when to go a bit harder, and finally.. when to stop. Telling the bottom its up to them also suggests to them that they should stay present throughout and this does not give them "permission" if you will, to go into subspace/fly/whatever word you want. Basically.. the poor thing cannot really fully let go, because they now have to be so aware the whole time that they have to keep you, the top, in check.

Many bottoms simply are too worried to use a safe word, even if they agreed to use one. Is this responsible? Of course not.. if you agree you will use one and you are at a place where you want to use it, you should. If you don't you are sending the wrong message to the top.. its like faking an orgasm.. they are going to think you like it when you are definately not. However, tops need to keep in mind that many submissives simply won't use one... so then you are put in the nasty situation of a bottom wanting it to stop, too scared to stop it, a top waiting for the magic word.. and it ends up being a negative scene... wee!

As for my experience bottoming and when something was going horridly wrong.. to be blunt.. screw the safe word.. I started fighting back. The first thing that entered my mind was not, gee I should say a word.. mmm.. what word was it? It was simply to get myself out of the situation.. in a fight or flight, I fought apparently. It is my base gut reaction.. and a clear phsyical hint to the top that something is horridly wrong.

I could go on for a bit more of course but I think you get my point. Now to be clear.. when I am topping a new bottom who is more experiencing sensation to get a handle on what toys to do what, how their bodies take it, etc.. I am happy to use safewords. I am simply stating that after that point, I don't use them. If there is a bottom who wishes to play with me who is deadset on using them.. then we are not suitable play partners.. just as if there is a top who insists on me using them.. I am more then happy to explain why we are not good play partners as well.

I hope this does not offend and that hopefully I explained this in a way that simply brings up a point.. not a fight.  Sorry for the lengthy babble.

< Message edited by amoretta -- 7/25/2006 2:38:37 AM >

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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/25/2006 4:22:20 PM   
SavageEu


Posts: 197
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		amoretta Thank you for the reply, I had thought the topic had died but you bring up some good points. I was mainly thinking about the early days of being a sub and if stuff like that might help them have that boundary there if they are not sure quite what thier limit is. And as well for me I have only had a little experience with really hard play, most of my other experience has been with women that had enough with barely a welt raised. So for me I know my inexperience with gaugeing a reaction if someone really loves the pain is limited and that makes me a bit warry.

As I like pain as well I have gotten into that place where it did feel like I was flying and really I am not sure I would have remembered what a word was at that point either.

 But my thinking on panic words was a bit different. I wonder that if a sub is new, and thinks that she is supposed to act some way but gets confused or scared and, well paniced but wants to be a good sub still and does not know quite what to do it would give her a prearranged way to not be a sub for a moment. So yes, this implies that communication had broken down a bit but no ones perfect which is what I was trying to address. Structure being there as a way to reassure the new sub. Now I have had a new sub where this was not a problem at all and it never came up, maybe thats the norm I am not sure. Hence the question here.

And not to worry amoretta it was not babble, it was a point you wanted to make and backed it up with experience and reasoning. I liked it.

So anyone want to volunteer to give me a little target practice with the crop hehe :)

(in reply to amoretta)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/25/2006 8:15:36 PM   
amoretta


Posts: 57
Joined: 7/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SavageEu

So anyone want to volunteer to give me a little target practice with the crop hehe :)



This is actually a very good idea. For a new top I would suggest finding an experienced bottom who can take a bit of heavier sensation to be what some refer to as a teaching bottom. A teaching bottom can tell you how you are doing with your technique, how it feels, and while you are learning and getting honest feedback, you are also building confidence.. yay! If you are not in an area with an active community where you can do this then we can brainstorm. There are practice methods with each type of toy if that would help..

For instance, if you are practicing with a singletail you can go outside and for accuracy practice hit leaves off trees.
...

As for a new bottom and panicing etc.. look for her breathing patterns, eye movements, toes and fingers clenching/unclenching, heart rate.. Let her know (as it seems you have) that it is okay and encouraged to say something if she is feeling anything like nervousness, panic, numbness, etc. :)

I am probably repeating stuff you already heard but just trying to throw out some ideas.. :)

_____________________________

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/25/2006 8:24:46 PM   
SavageEu


Posts: 197
Joined: 7/8/2006
Status: offline 		Ideas are precious things, trust me I see nothing but complaints all day, having an idea shows that you are able to create and not just destroy.

There is not really a community here that I know about but I can look around. This state is as red as the come  and not from being whipped. We actually had a club we were going to join about an hours drive away but it closed down and that was the only one I know about. I'll look around though and see. I have gotten a lot better at reading people in social situations so I think it will be something like that. Plus learing = fun.

(in reply to amoretta)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/27/2006 4:24:15 PM   
ThatLilBrat


Posts: 149
Joined: 2/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm a mentor for new subs, mostly on how to be safe in the lifestyle and such

Subs, by nature want/need to please. Many of us feel such failure when having to use safe words.
Yes, I know, it should not be seen as that ... but to me, and many others ... it is failure and one that is hard to forgive. We are much harder on ourselves than we are on others .... we forgive others before we even think of forgiving ourselves.


I have also recommended a code word "blue" ... It is used to address confusion, clarification, mental - emotional overload. It's a sign to step out of the D/s and respectfully address the immediate issue.  I have also suggested that 'blue' be used when discussing matters that are just too painful at the moment ... mostly past abuse and such.  There are times to discuss those things ... and there are times when the demons need to be kept in the past even if it's in a disassociated manner.

I think the biggest lesson I need to learn is ... to take my own advice.

_____________________________

Remember the three R's:
Respect for self;
Respect for others; and
Responsibility for ALL your actions and accept the consquences of your decisions

(in reply to SavageEu)
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RE: Safe words and panic words. - 7/27/2006 4:55:22 PM   
afeathr


Posts: 248
Joined: 6/1/2006
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		I have found that Sir seems to have a firm grasp of my level of tolerance in all things... physically and emotionally.  There hasn't been a time where he has pushed me beyond my capabilities.  Even when I say that something is hurting, it's usually tolerable still and he understands that.  I've asked him how he knows when to stop, and he just says, "I know you."  'nuff said.

Come to think of it, we don't even *have* a safe word.

_____________________________

afeathr

-Going where the wind blows me...

(in reply to TxBadMan)
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