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Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 12:56:26 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I think we often think it's funny when a woman dress as a man or a man dress as a woman. No offense taken at all.

Yet somehow, there is so much outrage if someone dresses as an ethnicity that is not their own.

I was just thinking what's kinda funny is my company annual dinner actually has the theme of dressing up as other ethnicity and wear their traditional costumes.

It's all in good fun. And many men came dressed as not only a woman, but a woman of a different ethnicity.

In the US, we'd probably all get in trouble for it!

Just was reading about the outrage of this costume causing the poor woman to apologise for her insensitivity. I feel like people shouldn't get upset about this. This doesn't look one bit racist to me.






< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/31/2016 1:06:49 AM >
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 4:58:43 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Greta, your complete lack of understanding American History once more becomes apparent.


Let me give you a bit of a shortened version of why this costume is considered insensitive.

When Europeans came to the Americas they brought wonderful gifts like small pox, syphilis, and a host of other nice things to spread among the indigenous population.

Then we can through in the nice little systematic program of extermination of Native Americans over 414 years.

To get an idea of the highlights, google the following:

Trail of Tears, 1838 - 1839 (I personally can count 67 ancestral relatives buried in that)
Sand Creek November 29, 1864
Wounded Knee 1890

And let us not forget the forced incarceration of Native Americans on reservations, located on lands that were chosen because no white person wanted it (until they found gold or some other precious resource, in which case the Indians were moved again.)

Or Americanization, the government program that took children from their families, put them in boarding schools were they were punished for speaking their language, practicing any cultural beliefs (the last school was closed in the 60's.)

Of course the American government had done much to make life on reservations better, which is why the average reservation indian has an income that is so far below the poverty level that they may as well be living in a third world country.

So yeah, pretty much anything that is a portrayal of the colonization of the Americas is a bit insensitive.

And the fact that you are too fucking stupid to do a bit of research to find out WHY it is considered insensitive just proves that your IQ is considerably less than a toddler's shoe size.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 5:10:35 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline 		I still don't understand what is the sensitivity issue? Are Native Americans ashamed of their traditional gear? What has the history got to do with dressing up in their traditional gear for a Halloween Event? Where you are suppose to dress up as fictional characters.

I mean, I am trying to think of an equivalent. For example. Chinese hates the Japanese for enslaving their women right and whatever the Japanese has done to them.

But I am sure IF a Japanese dress up in Chinese Traditional Gear. There would be zero outrage from China. Infact, they would think, for example, if a Japanese dress in Chinese traditional gear. IT would be honouring the Chinese.

And the crazy thing over here is, because the Japanese refuses to apologise to China for their past atrocities. Most of them would absolutely refuse to dress in Chinese traditional gear, as it would be honouring them lol.

US got it the other way round. If you dress in your victims traditional gear, you are insulting them?

Usually if you dress like your favourite character or your favourite idol or whatever, you are honouring them.

I thought the picture of the dude in Native American gear looks pretty majestic and cool! Like I can't even imagine looking at that, and thinking it's an insult or it's being racist.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/31/2016 5:16:00 AM >

(in reply to jlf1961)
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RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 7:00:23 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

I still don't understand what is the sensitivity issue? Are Native Americans ashamed of their traditional gear? What has the history got to do with dressing up in their traditional gear for a Halloween Event? Where you are suppose to dress up as fictional characters.

I mean, I am trying to think of an equivalent. For example. Chinese hates the Japanese for enslaving their women right and whatever the Japanese has done to them.

But I am sure IF a Japanese dress up in Chinese Traditional Gear. There would be zero outrage from China. Infact, they would think, for example, if a Japanese dress in Chinese traditional gear. IT would be honouring the Chinese.

And the crazy thing over here is, because the Japanese refuses to apologise to China for their past atrocities. Most of them would absolutely refuse to dress in Chinese traditional gear, as it would be honouring them lol.

US got it the other way round. If you dress in your victims traditional gear, you are insulting them?

Usually if you dress like your favourite character or your favourite idol or whatever, you are honouring them.

I thought the picture of the dude in Native American gear looks pretty majestic and cool! Like I can't even imagine looking at that, and thinking it's an insult or it's being racist.



No, native americans are not ashamed of their traditional dress, and the issue was the Pilgrim outfit more than anything, of course the indian costume couldn't be any less accurate if you tried.

You know, Pilgrims = European colonialism, beginning of the systematic genocide of Native Americans.

I take it that you did not look up the points I suggested?

Then let me put it this way, you know how Jewish people get a bit upset about people parading around in a Nazi SS uniform?

Its the same thing.

Look at the picture. Let me explain some of the problems with the Indian costume.

First, he is wearing a traditional style (although red was not normally used) head dress of the Lakota Sioux, the facial paint is more Comanche (southern plains/ Texas,) the symbol on his chest is Navaho (American Southwest i.e New Mexico/Arizona) the buckskins are more of those worn by WHITE trappers, not native Americans, the moccasins (shoes) are not even close to the style worn by ANY native American nation (traditional moccasins were more akin to boots, not slippers.)

Lets go a bit further on the head dress, which would have been made of Eagle Feathers.

For a man to get the privilege of wearing eagle feathers, he would have had to prove himself as a warrior, and counted coup on an enemy.

Kind of like some dickhead who never seen combat wearing the Combat Infantryman's Badge or a purple heart that he/she did not earn.

Chiefs and medicine men wore these style head dresses as a mark of honor and wisdom, most often for traditional ceremonies.

To put it rather bluntly, there is no honoring anybody. It is a typical mishmash of elements that, taken as a whole, mean nothing, and thus is more of an insult than anything.

Kind of like every Indian portrayed in any one of 400 Hollywood westerns from the days of silent films to the present.

As for the pilgrim costume, where do I start.

Pilgrim, aka Puritan, women would have worn a skirt that covered everything, showing no skin period. The puritans were responsible for the Salem Witch Trials (another nice point in American Colonial History.)

From a personal standpoint, I am 1/4 native American, my family is of the Wolf clan of the eastern band of the Cherokee, my name appears on the tribal rolls so I am considered a full member of the tribe.

That fact gives me the right to wear the wolf symbol to signify my clan connection. If you trace my Cherokee ancestors you find a long list of shaman and holy men and a number of warriors. You will also discover a nice link to the Chiracahua Apache, a direct result of a grandfather who refused to settle in the Indian Territories and continued west to end up marrying an Apache woman.

He returned to North Carolina in time to serve in the Southern Army during the civil war. He did not fight to support slavery, he fought for revenge, eventually was captured and executed by the Yankees, but not before damn near accomplishing his goal of killing 20 union troops for every member of his family he helped bury on the trail of tears.

It was the Europeans that brought the tradition of scalping to the Americas. It was the American troopers that indulged in little things like cutting off native American women's breasts to make tobacco pouches (they did the same to young Indian boys scrotums.)

It was the American government that supplied rancid meat to Indians on reservations.

And you have to ask why people consider that costume insensitive?

400 plus years of racial oppression and extermination, some programs were still going on in 1967!

Native Americans do not even have the right to determine what the land that the US Government forced them to live on is used for. Any minerals or natural resource use is determined by the Federal Government, not the tribe who 'owns' the land of the reservation.

Then some stupid foreigner tells us to 'get over it' since it happened so long ago, well the problem with that is that it is still going on. Eighty percent of Indians living on reservations live well below the poverty line. Health care on reservations is so substandard that the UN considers them to be worse than most third world countries. Unemployment on reservations is 5 times the national average (would be nice if Tribal governments could authorize factories and stuff to be built on reservations, but that is up to the federal government) and since most reservations are so far from any urban center, driving to a decent job is out of the questions since the transportation expense would eat up most of the money earned.

There is an Indian rights movement leader being held in Federal Prison on a life sentence for the murder of 2 FBI agents. Funny thing, three other men were acquitted on the same charges, with the same evidence (one confessed to shooting one of the agents) and the closing arguments by the prosecutor included "we cannot prove he fired the shots that killed these agents, we cannot even prove that he held the gun that killed these men. But two FBI agents are dead and someone has to pay."

And you cant understand why this Native American costume is considered insensitive?

Do you know how to use a search engine? Do you know how to process information? Do you have two brain cells that are on speaking terms?

You know, Romney promised the native Americans he would personally see that every broken treaty was honored. He said that at the gathering of Nations.

The Native Americans laughed him off the stage.

Would you like to know why?

I will tell you, if he kept his promise, 70% of all land in the western United States would have to be turned over to the Native Americans, and the non Indian owners kicked off it.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 7:40:07 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline 		greta, when jlf says

quote:

Then let me put it this way, you know how Jewish people get a bit upset about people parading around in a Nazi SS uniform?

Its the same thing.


its not even close.

pilgrim costumes are not symbols of European colonialism nor native American genocide, period. so talking about them as being on par with what Nazi uniforms mean to the jews is absurd.

also what lefties like to leave out from the "the white man is the devil" narrative is:

that in some cases when it came to violent conflict, the Indians were the aggressors.

that they themselves were violent conquerors of other tribes before and even during colonial times.

that the major Indian tribes sided with the british during the revolutionary war and were therefore, hostile nations.

some tribes didn't view land as the same way Europeans settlers did---they were partially nomadic.

that many (possibly hundreds of thousands into the millions) Indians died because of their lack of resistance to Europeans diseases---tragedy yes but, not genocide.

this is not to say that injustices haven't occurred, but that there's more to the story than the left will typically tell you.

oh---then there is the conservative idea of that if people living on reservations are on the whole living in poverty, it is largely because living on the government dole has made them so.


< Message edited by bounty44 -- 10/31/2016 7:43:12 AM >

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 8:23:22 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:


You know, Pilgrims = European colonialism, beginning of the systematic genocide of Native Americans.

I assume that IS her husband. To me, the symbolism of a Native American Warrior marrying a Pilgram woman, seem to indicate it's about peace.
quote:

Then let me put it this way, you know how Jewish people get a bit upset about people parading around in a Nazi SS uniform?

Gosh Jewish people are gonna be so upset with all the Nazi Punks and Skinhead in this world then! They don't even need Halloween to wear the Swastika.
quote:

Look at the picture. Let me explain some of the problems with the Indian costume.

It's Halloween though, you can't expect the whole get up to be authentically EXACTLY like the traditional gear. It's called a costume! It's suppose to some-what resemble it but most of the time, it's not exactly the same.

I mean barely anybody who dresses for Halloween looks identical to the character they are dressing up as, in terms of precise accuracy of their dress up!
quote:

It was the American government that supplied rancid meat to Indians on reservations.
And you have to ask why people consider that costume insensitive?
400 plus years of racial oppression and extermination, some programs were still going on in 1967!

Okay, I assume the main costume you object to, is the female costume. So if she dressed up as another Native American, would that be okay? Let's say if she chose Pocahontas instead?
quote:

And you cant understand why this Native American costume is considered insensitive?

Um..., okay, so it's the Native American costume again? No, actually. If white people have abused Native American in the past. And chose to dress as Native American in Halloween. As I said, it's the same as Japanese dressing up as Chinese for Halloween. The Japanese did my country great wrong too. Abused the women of our country and slaughtered all their children infront of the women and made sex slaves of all our women.
Yet if they chose to dress like a Chinese in Halloween or if they ever had a Chinese theme anything, I think none of us would even find it offensive, AS THE TWO ISSUES are not connected to each other! Current generation of Japanese especially has nothing to do what their ancestors did.

And it's like..., come on, CLEARLY the intentions of these people were not meant to be insulting at all. It's like getting upset over the wrong things. THESE two people were NOT the ones who abused the Native Americans in the past. And that's my point. They had nothing to do with it.

And Native American costumes, like many other traditional costumes usually looks majestic and awesome! Why wouldn't people want to wear them?

It's like if you go to India and dress in a Sari, the Indians will love you. If you go china and wear a cheong sam, they would love you. But if you visit a Native American and dress in their traditional gear, they will probably get offended at you, regardless of race probably.


< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/31/2016 8:28:47 AM >

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 9:02:25 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bounty44

greta, when jlf says

quote:

Then let me put it this way, you know how Jewish people get a bit upset about people parading around in a Nazi SS uniform?

Its the same thing.


its not even close.

pilgrim costumes are not symbols of European colonialism nor native American genocide, period. so talking about them as being on par with what Nazi uniforms mean to the jews is absurd.

also what lefties like to leave out from the "the white man is the devil" narrative is:

that in some cases when it came to violent conflict, the Indians were the aggressors.

that they themselves were violent conquerors of other tribes before and even during colonial times.

that the major Indian tribes sided with the british during the revolutionary war and were therefore, hostile nations.

some tribes didn't view land as the same way Europeans settlers did---they were partially nomadic.

that many (possibly hundreds of thousands into the millions) Indians died because of their lack of resistance to Europeans diseases---tragedy yes but, not genocide.

this is not to say that injustices haven't occurred, but that there's more to the story than the left will typically tell you.




Bounty, during the forced relocation of Native Americans from the south east, it might interest you to know that President Andrew Jackson disobeyed a Supreme Court ruling that stated the relocation was unconstitutional since the majority of the Cherokee had actually purchased the lands they were living on (even though it was their traditional homelands) and had legal deeds to the property.

Also of note is the fact that when General Jackson was fighting the Creek Indians, the majority of his troops were either full or half blood Cherokee Indians, one Chief Junaluska even saved his life, and went to Jackson to beg for the man who owed him a life not to relocate his people.

Jackson refused to even listen.

Junaluska said the one thing he regretted was saving Jackson's life.

I never said the diseases were part of the genocide, however, Twelve nations were driven to extinction between 1600 and 1840, by military action (something native Americans never managed in their inter tribal wars.)

On the massacre at Sand Creek, the band was led by Chief Black Kettle. In front of his lodge he flew an AMERICAN flag, to make sure everyone knew he honored the treaty he had signed, and that he supported the UNION during the civil war.

In recognition of his support, US army and Colorado militia members massacred the majority of his village, troopers entertained themselves by running sabers through the bellies of infants, cutting off the breasts of dead (some not so dead) indian women to make tobacco pouches, as well as cutting off the testicles and scrotums of male children for the same purpose.

The standing orders for US troops when dealing with 'hostiles' were to attack villages and leave no one alive.

From 1865 through 1890, the US Government paid the following bounties to civilians.

$5 for the scalp of an Indian child
$7.50 for the scalp of an Indian woman
$15.00 for the scalp of an Indian male.

During the Apache wars, the bounties were doubled, for Apache scalps.

Of course there was really no way for anyone to determine if the scalp was Apache, Navaho, Hopi or even Mexican.

The US government promised reservation Indians a side of beef every 2 months, along with 5 pounds of flour, 2 pounds of salt and 2 pounds of sugar.

According to the BIA's own records, rarely was this actually done. Indian agents typically sold the food to whites and handed out rancid beef that even buzzards would not touch.

Indians who, driven by starvation, tried to hunt for meat (which meant leaving the reservation in most cases) were arrested as hostile.

Yes, there were wars between the tribes, but never on the scale that the Europeans waged on Indians.

And of course, the "the Indians stole land from other tribes" argument is always good to use to justify the westward expansion and theft of land from Indians, however it neglects the simple truth that tribes who were forced to move never had a destination dictated that was worthless, unusable land with little potential for farming or raising livestock.

Take for instance the Lakota reservations in North and South Dakota.

Located in the 'badlands.'

Do you know why this area is known as the badlands?

It is because the land is useless (well until they found gold, oil and uranium under it) and no white farmer or rancher wanted it.

Oh, yeah, while we are at it, lets take away their guns and outlaw traditional weapons so they cant hunt. Take away their good horses and give them worn out nags that are barely able to walk to pull a plow.

Land sacred to a tribe, no problem, we will turn a mountain into a statue honoring American Presidents.

General attacks a band of Indians trying to reach sanctuary in Canada and is massacred while having other troops under his command attack the women and children trying to escape, great, hunt down the chiefs and have them arrested on murder charges.

The history books say that Sitting Bull was killed resisting arrest because he supported the "ghost dancer" movement. He was arrested for refusing to condemn it, and murdered during the arrest.

The excuse for wounded knee is that the indians would not give up their guns (weapons most of them bought) and to deal with it, the wonderful and glorious 7th Cav opened fire on starving indians with Hotchkiss guns. The 'hostiles' consisted of mostly old men, women and children who were near dead from starvation.

A great and honorable battle.

White history books talk about the 'tortures' inflicted on white settlers and soldiers. Native American warriors tortured cowards. Brave men were given fast, clean deaths.

White history books tell of Indian women and white women treated as little better than slaves.

Try again, native american cultures were matriarchal in respect to the family. Indian woman got pissed at her husband, all she had to do was put his belongings outside the lodge and they were divorced. White women taken as prisoners often were treated by their indian captors better than if they had been married to some white guy (remember, white women in the states had little or no rights until the 20th century.)

An Indian man could claim ownership of his clothes, weapons, and his horses, the women owned everything else. Native American women had the right, indeed were expected to speak around the council fires.

A Cherokee holy woman once spoke against a war with the British in North Carolina, when the men ignored her, she took it upon herself to warn the English Settlers along the Blue Ridge of the attacks to come.

The reason for the war, the French were going to pay the Cherokee, who until then had been treated well by the newly arrived British colonists. In fact, the British settlers typically paid the Cherokee twice the going rate for venison, skins and Cherokee produced produce.

This was why she argued against taking French money.

Of the 546 treaties made with Native Americans by the American Government, the US broke 543 of them.

The massacre at Little Big Horn was not because the Sioux broke the treaty, it was because the US Government found out there was gold in the Black Hills and ordered the US Army to remove the Sioux from land that the Government had given them not 5 years earlier.

The Sioux reservation went from almost 4 million acres to barely 50,000.

The Chiricahua band of the Apache numbered close to 5 thousand in 1870, by the time Geronimo was forced to surrender the second time, there were less than 100, while many of the men were killed in combat, most died from malaria contracted while they living in Florida.

As for how they viewed the land, that does not justify what was done to them.

The 'in some cases' Indians were the aggressors, well gee George, a bunch of people show up on a big boat, start building houses, take over lands your people have hunted on for god knows how many generations, what would you do, give them a welcome to the neighborhood party?

Man, someone shows up on my ancestral homeland and starts telling me what I can and cannot do, I am going to get a bit pissed off.

The tribes that tried to help the colonists got fucked in the ass for their kindness.

"hey, we need more land. We want the land the indians have, lets give them the blankets off the beds of people who died of small pox."

Want to know something really funny?

During the indian wars before the revolution, farmers would wake up and discover that their neighbors had been killed or taken prisoner and their homes burned to the ground, but they were not touched.

Many wondered why.

Well, one man found out. It seems the Indians would check the cabin or house doors, if they were locked, the Indians attacked and burned the home to the ground.

If the doors were not locked, they were left in peace.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 10:00:24 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:


You know, Pilgrims = European colonialism, beginning of the systematic genocide of Native Americans.

I assume that IS her husband. To me, the symbolism of a Native American Warrior marrying a Pilgram woman, seem to indicate it's about peace.
quote:

Then let me put it this way, you know how Jewish people get a bit upset about people parading around in a Nazi SS uniform?

Gosh Jewish people are gonna be so upset with all the Nazi Punks and Skinhead in this world then! They don't even need Halloween to wear the Swastika.
quote:

Look at the picture. Let me explain some of the problems with the Indian costume.

It's Halloween though, you can't expect the whole get up to be authentically EXACTLY like the traditional gear. It's called a costume! It's suppose to some-what resemble it but most of the time, it's not exactly the same.

I mean barely anybody who dresses for Halloween looks identical to the character they are dressing up as, in terms of precise accuracy of their dress up!
quote:

It was the American government that supplied rancid meat to Indians on reservations.
And you have to ask why people consider that costume insensitive?
400 plus years of racial oppression and extermination, some programs were still going on in 1967!

Okay, I assume the main costume you object to, is the female costume. So if she dressed up as another Native American, would that be okay? Let's say if she chose Pocahontas instead?
quote:

And you cant understand why this Native American costume is considered insensitive?

Um..., okay, so it's the Native American costume again? No, actually. If white people have abused Native American in the past. And chose to dress as Native American in Halloween. As I said, it's the same as Japanese dressing up as Chinese for Halloween. The Japanese did my country great wrong too. Abused the women of our country and slaughtered all their children infront of the women and made sex slaves of all our women.
Yet if they chose to dress like a Chinese in Halloween or if they ever had a Chinese theme anything, I think none of us would even find it offensive, AS THE TWO ISSUES are not connected to each other! Current generation of Japanese especially has nothing to do what their ancestors did.

And it's like..., come on, CLEARLY the intentions of these people were not meant to be insulting at all. It's like getting upset over the wrong things. THESE two people were NOT the ones who abused the Native Americans in the past. And that's my point. They had nothing to do with it.

And Native American costumes, like many other traditional costumes usually looks majestic and awesome! Why wouldn't people want to wear them?

It's like if you go to India and dress in a Sari, the Indians will love you. If you go china and wear a cheong sam, they would love you. But if you visit a Native American and dress in their traditional gear, they will probably get offended at you, regardless of race probably.




Did you even read anything about the problems with the native american costume?

quote:

Look at the picture. Let me explain some of the problems with the Indian costume.

First, he is wearing a traditional style (although red was not normally used) head dress of the Lakota Sioux, the facial paint is more Comanche (southern plains/ Texas,) the symbol on his chest is Navaho (American Southwest i.e New Mexico/Arizona) the buckskins are more of those worn by WHITE trappers, not native Americans, the moccasins (shoes) are not even close to the style worn by ANY native American nation (traditional moccasins were more akin to boots, not slippers.)

Lets go a bit further on the head dress, which would have been made of Eagle Feathers.

For a man to get the privilege of wearing eagle feathers, he would have had to prove himself as a warrior, and counted coup on an enemy.

Kind of like some dickhead who never seen combat wearing the Combat Infantryman's Badge or a purple heart that he/she did not earn.


Since your reading comprehension ability is limited, let me enlighten you.

The head dress is Lakota Sioux, from the area that is now North and South Dakota. GOOGLE LAKOTA SIOUX you idiot.

The war paint is from the Comanche, southern plains, Oklahoma and Texas.

The symbol on his chest is Navaho, New Mexico and Arizona.

There is no ONE NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE you idiot. In modern times, there are 566 native American Tribes still in existence, at the time of Columbus there were closer to 4000.

That means there are 566 individual native american cultures.

NOT ONE, BUT 566 YOU BLITHERING IDIOT.

Each culture has its own unique language, traditions, belief systems, symbology, etc.

To further break it down, there are 12 major language families among the native Americans, broken down to 300 different languages.

Each tribe is then further broken down to individual clans. Marriage within the clan is taboo, even if the blood relationship is many times removed. Or to put it this way, it would be taboo for a person to marry a cousin, even if they are 20 times removed, it is still considered incest.

The Apache are do not call themselves Apache, their word for themselves is N'de, Inde or Tinde, Apache comes from a Ute word that means 'Enemy.' The Navaho call themselves the Diné.

So, even the recognized tribal names are not the actual names of the tribes.

I will complicate it even further.

My Cherokee blood is of the Wolf clan of the Cherokee.

Well, just about every tribe has a wolf clan.

However, the origin of the clan differs from tribe to tribe.

For the Cherokee, the wolf clan came to be because the first wolf created by the Great Spirit was hunting near a Cherokee village.

He saw a maiden and fell in love, and went to the great spirit, and begged to be made a man so he could marry her.

The great spirit agreed, but only for one year.

So the great wolf married the maiden and they had two children, the boy would become the first of the wolf clan.

When his time was up, the great wolf went to the chief and told him who he was, and that he would be leaving to become a wolf again. He said that his blood was within the boy, and that he would be a great warrior and hunter, and as long as the line continued, the wolf and the Cherokee would be kin.

However, in other tribes the wolf clan might have been inspired by a vision, a great hunt, a bargain made with a wolf in some ancient time, but the wolf clan of the Cherokee are blood relatives to the wolves of north America.

Each tribes origin story of how they came to be on the earth is different. The Hopi say this is the fourth world, and they got here through a hole in the ground, hence the symbology of the Kiva.

So, Greta, there is not one Native American Culture, there are many. And mixing the symbols into some fucked up costume is an insult to each tribe.

On the tribal rolls, you would find my Christian name as it appears on my birth certificate, but also my clan name, Adelvu unega Waya, grandson of Gule Disgo.



_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 10:19:36 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		More Native Americans are murdered by police than any other ethnicity in the U.S.. that includes African Americans who are targeted by every police department in the nation.

I live in one of the most egalitarian towns in the nation. Yet a recent review of police arrests here shows a huge bias against African Americans. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if any Lenape people still lived here. They were eradicated centuries ago.

Native Americans objecting to foreign corporations bulldozing their burial grounds have been brutally attacked. Go look up the Dakota pipeline protests.

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Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 3:28:31 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Im just wondering how greta would feel if a guy showed up dressed as ISIS.
Personally There are many offensive costumes that various people hate.
From what I have seen....
ISIS, KKK ,Blackface, Hitler or nazis, Native Americans, people who hang black men from trees in their halloween garden in effigy. Priests and Nuns,
Just as there are "justification" for wearing them. There are justifications about why they are offensive.


Im more interested in the very real situations going on. Halloween isnt important enough to worry about.

PS Bita what is happening with Standing Rock is horrendous, and I agree with you.. I stand with them, and their cause. And anger.

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Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 5:22:32 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
There is no ONE NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE you idiot. In modern times, there are 566 native American Tribes still in existence, at the time of Columbus there were closer to 4000.

That means there are 566 individual native american cultures.

NOT ONE, BUT 566 YOU BLITHERING IDIOT.

Each culture has its own unique language, traditions, belief systems, symbology, etc.

To further break it down, there are 12 major language families among the native Americans, broken down to 300 different languages.


This doesn't matter. There also isn't just one Chinese Culture. They all speak different Native languages, eat different types of food. And have their unique traditional dressing unique to their specific Chinese culture, depending on which part of China they are from.

But if someone wears a generic cheong sam to dress up like a Chinese.

No Chinese gets offended, even IF the costume is NOT representative or accurate of the specific sub Chinese culture they hail from.




< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/31/2016 5:23:14 PM >

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 5:25:51 PM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Im just wondering how greta would feel if a guy showed up dressed as ISIS.

Are you kidding?????

It's Halloween!!! Many people here dress up like Terrorists! Whether Osama Bin Ladin or whatever! I think it's funny. Not at all offended!

Remember I just mentioned my company held a function about dressing up as OTHER ethnicity? Guess what? We had people dress up as Arab Terrorists too! Fully with Toy guns! We even have people dressing up as EVIL Japanese soldiers who enslaved and killed our people. It was no big deal. No sensitivity at all. Especially if it's Halloween, dressing up as evil villains actually is a great idea !

Fact of the matter is, THERE ARE soooo many ordinary Muslims on the streets in Singapore that LOOKS exactly like ISIS already, and they aren't even dressing up. There is no "ISIS" look. It's just the super Islamic Religious look.

And in my country, we have once a year, racial harmony day, which all kids are suppose to dress up as another race or ethnicity and go to school like that. Won't be surprise if some Kids start dressing up as terrorists.

I mean, there is this popular game in the past called CounterStrike, it is about, you can choose to play on team Islamic Terrorists. Used to be sooo popular among kids and nobody will blink an eye if someone came dressing up like ISIS.



< Message edited by Greta75 -- 10/31/2016 5:33:11 PM >

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 5:55:43 PM   
kiwisub22


Posts: 450
Joined: 7/16/2016
Status: offline 		I think what we have here is two different cultures, and never the two shall meet.

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Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 7:01:02 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
There is no ONE NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE you idiot. In modern times, there are 566 native American Tribes still in existence, at the time of Columbus there were closer to 4000.

That means there are 566 individual native american cultures.

NOT ONE, BUT 566 YOU BLITHERING IDIOT.

Each culture has its own unique language, traditions, belief systems, symbology, etc.

To further break it down, there are 12 major language families among the native Americans, broken down to 300 different languages.


This doesn't matter. There also isn't just one Chinese Culture. They all speak different Native languages, eat different types of food. And have their unique traditional dressing unique to their specific Chinese culture, depending on which part of China they are from.

But if someone wears a generic cheong sam to dress up like a Chinese.

No Chinese gets offended, even IF the costume is NOT representative or accurate of the specific sub Chinese culture they hail from.






Greta, okay you are using the Chinese as an example, fine, then lets compare Chinese to Native Americans.

There are 1.357 BILLION China just in China.

There are less than 3 million native Americans in the US.

Now, lets go a bit further you ditz.

As I tried to explain to you earlier, from 1865 through 1967, it was common practice to take Native American children from their families, put them in boarding schools to be Americanized.

The process included punishment for speaking their language, practicing their customs, in other words, any show by these children in reference to their culture was grounds for punishment.

Punishments included beatings, forced hair cuts, being chained to a pipe, denied food and more.

And you cannot understand why, after all that, Native Americans get pissed off because some jackass wants to parade around as an Indian?

Okay, lets go further.

Alcoholism is epidemic on the reservations, the picture shows the jackass with a mixed drink in his hand.

Hollywood cliche's include but are not limited to, the drunken Indian, the stupid Indian, the uncivilized Indian. With few exceptions are Indians portrayed as anything good in movies.

Going to the headdress once more, they were made of eagle feathers, eagle feathers were earned by being a brave warrior.

The symbol on his chest is one reserved in Navaho culture for a healer, a wise man/woman. To be worn by someone other than them is an insult.

Native Americans take their culture seriously, since for well over two hundred years it was the goal of every European colonist and their descendants to wipe it from the face of the earth.

Let me give you the reasons offense is taken.

Navajo code talkers served with the marines in the Pacific campaigns during World War two. A lot of them were killed in action.

Would you like to know when their duty and sacrifices were honored?

60 years after the fucking war was over.

Why, because a native american congressman from New Mexico raised a shit storm about it.

One of the men that raised the flag on Iwo Jima was a Paiute Indian. He died face down in a ditch drunk because he was an indian and could not get a job, didn't fucking matter he served with distinction fighting the Japanese.

He was another drunk Indian.

I have seen you bitch about black men being killed by cops.

Try this on for size, the US Government run Indian reservations for the most part do not have running clean water, indoor plumbing, adequate heat. Hell the average reservation home would be condemned in any city in the US as unlivable.

Over half the reservations west of the Mississippi have infant mortality rates higher than the rest of the country due to poor health care.

On the Pine Ridge reservation, the local clinics are using military surplus medical equipment from the before 1990.

The joke is let em build casinos.

Great, casinos are great for income and jobs.

Casinos are worthless if the fucking location is so far out of the way as to be almost impossible to get to by anyone wanting to go there.

Of course you have to have good public utilities to support the casinos, and if you dont have that, building one is a waste of money.

What is worse, in your case in particular, that the reasons have been explained and you do not grasp the fucking problems. I dont know if you are just stupid or what.

The native american culture has been denigrated, insulted, damn near wiped out, and used in ad campaigns to sell crap, so yeah, they get pissed off.

Sacred native american symbols have been slapped on the side of cars. Best example is the Ford Thunderbird.

Find out what the symbol means and then you may (if you have an IQ higher than a turnip) understand why that was not honoring the Native Americans.

You cant understand why a persecuted people would find this costume offensive?

For the same reason African Americans got pissed about white actors portraying African Americans in black face make up.

It is the same when characters from novels are rewritten to either change the race or sex for the movie.

It is the same reason that women get tired of seeing women portrayed as nothing more than eye candy in tv shows and movies.

It is the same when a girl with an interest in math or science finds out that because she is not a man, she is not going to get the research grants, the jobs that she may be more than qualified for.

Native Americans are offended by this shit because it is portraying one more fucked up Hollywood cliche, it is not honoring that native Americans.

For all the laws, and bullshit, Native Americans are still treated as second class citizens. The treaties that put them on reservations promised schools, doctors, shelter everything that they would need to survive in the 'new' America.

None of it has been done.

Native Americans have no control how reservation lands are used, that is for the BIA to decide. Uranium found on an Indian Reservation, the government goes in, has it mined, makes billions off it, and the Tribe that owns that land gets next to nothing.

Oh, wait, they do get something, ground water so polluted by the mining it is unsafe to drink. Mine waste blowing around the res that is linked to lung diseases like cancer.

Oil drilled on Indian reservations prior to and during WW2 left the ground so polluted that the Indians could not raise livestock on it, since nothing would grow. Water so polluted that to drink it was a instant death warrant.

To this day, the government has made no effort to clean the lands up.

And you ask why they find that costume offensive.

Tell you what, you hope your happy little dumb ass on a plane from Singapore and fly to Rapid City South Dakota. From there rent a car and drive to the Pine Ridge Reservation.

Spend a week looking at the government supplied housing, the schools, the clinics.

Then tell those people they do not have a reason to be offended by some bearded drunk white guy dressing up like an Indian.

Then go to Mt Rushmore, see the sculpture of the great presidents, a monument to the greatness of America. Then think that it is smack dab in the middle of an area that is sacred to no less than six Native American Nations, and there is not one fucking monument to them anywhere.

Why, because Custer found gold in the black hills, stole the land from the Lakota after it had been DEEDED to them in a treaty so the US government could get the gold.

Then tell the native Americans they do not have a reason to be offended.

Talk to the growing number of 'traditionalists' who are persecuted by 'progressive' indians for trying to keep their culture alive on the reservations, find out about the Pine Ridge Reign of Terror, about the Progressive Tribal Government enforcers who killed traditionalists for over 10 years, and the Justice Department did absolutely nothing.

Oh, they invistigated the deaths. One woman had her cause of death listed as exposure.

An independent autopsy found a .308 caliber gunshot wound in the back of her head.

The US Justice Department amended their report to 'possible homicide.'

And then tell those people they do not have a reason to be offended.

Tell the man serving a life sentence for shooting two FBI agents he has no right to be offended when someone actually confessed to the fucking crime, repeatedly, on national news, in documentaries, every time that someone brings up the incident.

Tell him he has no reason to be offended.

Tell the kids on those reservations learning from outdated school books and knowing the odds are they will never get even half the educational funds a similarly sized non Indian town gets, they dont have a reason to be offended.

Or how about this knowledge.

How about the 4000 dead Cherokee buried in unmarked graves from North Carolina to Oklahoma, most of them are probably laying under a nice slab of concrete known as Interstate 40.

How would you rest with a few thousand people driving over your grave? How would you like it if it were your mother's or grandmother's grave?

Greta, you condemned the racism against Black Americans and are too fucking stupid to see this is but one more example of racism in the US?

Seriously, do you even try to understand? Do you have any idea how to use a search engine, how to use google?

Fuck, do some reading, do some fucking research, TRY TO FUCKING LEARN SOMETHING AND QUIT BEING SO FUCKING STUPID.

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(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 10/31/2016 7:21:00 PM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline
(Boom.)

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Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 11/1/2016 5:33:27 AM   
blnymph


Posts: 1598
Joined: 11/13/2010
Status: offline 		jlf your posts are really interesting - another evidence about how victor's history usually works by being implemented on the victims for generations if nobody tells "the other side" like you.

Let me add just one more example of ignorant tourists/whatever wearing "native costume" without knowing anything about it. You all know the Oktoberfest (the one and only real one) with thousands of tourists attending in Dirndl and Lederhose whether American, Asian, African, Australian, Antarctican, European. They get sold something faintly "looking alike," get pissed and after sobering, get home, or pissed another time.

Are they respected by the natives for their costumes? No, they are laughing stock. Are their costumes in any way original? No, they are specially designed for the average tourists' tastes, and hardly any other would buy that usually quite ugly low quality stuff. It is like they 'd wear a sign round their necks "Look here I am an ignorant tourist, charge me double."

Does this endanger local culture? Yes, and no. One has to look harder to get the real thing, the locals visit the Oktoberfest at times of day when the tourists are still busy sobering. There is evasive action, and the local culture is found and alive elsewhere but also struggling to have those elsewhere places.

It may be a nice gesture if Asians would feel flattered if a tourist wears Asian costume. Maybe it makes sense with their historical backgrounds. In other regions and contexts wearing "local costume" is not a compliment, but a sign of ignorance, or symbolic theft, or an insult, or those combined.

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Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 11/1/2016 7:16:16 AM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blnymph

jlf your posts are really interesting - another evidence about how victor's history usually works by being implemented on the victims for generations if nobody tells "the other side" like you.

Let me add just one more example of ignorant tourists/whatever wearing "native costume" without knowing anything about it. You all know the Oktoberfest (the one and only real one) with thousands of tourists attending in Dirndl and Lederhose whether American, Asian, African, Australian, Antarctican, European. They get sold something faintly "looking alike," get pissed and after sobering, get home, or pissed another time.

Are they respected by the natives for their costumes? No, they are laughing stock. Are their costumes in any way original? No, they are specially designed for the average tourists' tastes, and hardly any other would buy that usually quite ugly low quality stuff. It is like they 'd wear a sign round their necks "Look here I am an ignorant tourist, charge me double."

Does this endanger local culture? Yes, and no. One has to look harder to get the real thing, the locals visit the Oktoberfest at times of day when the tourists are still busy sobering. There is evasive action, and the local culture is found and alive elsewhere but also struggling to have those elsewhere places.

It may be a nice gesture if Asians would feel flattered if a tourist wears Asian costume. Maybe it makes sense with their historical backgrounds. In other regions and contexts wearing "local costume" is not a compliment, but a sign of ignorance, or symbolic theft, or an insult, or those combined.



Thank you blnymph.

I said in an earlier post that Mitt Romney addressed the all nations gathering and said that as president he would see that all broken treaties were honored.

The Indians who listened to that speech began to laugh so hard that he could not finish his speech.

Now, to his credit, he later admitted that he had no clue as to how far reaching, and how impractical the idea was. To begin with, as I said, 70% of all land west of the Mississippi would become the property of the various tribes that had been deeded the land in the various treaties.

A good example is Oklahoma, which was originally organized as "The Indian Territory." The entire state had been given to the Native Americans uprooted from the south eastern and eastern states under President Jackson's relocation plan (deemed unconstitutional by the setting supreme court at the time.) Map of Oklahoma as it was originally set up for Indians.

Then there is this interesting map of the original Sioux reservation.

When you throw in the lands deeded to the Cheyenne, Pawnee, and other plains tribes, pretty much all of the plains becomes Indian property.

Of course, what I really love is when people start talking about the 'savage' way that Indians treated captives. Indian warriors admired bravery. A brave man was not tortured, but a coward was made to suffer.

There is a story about a US Cavalry trooper that ended up on foot during the Apache wars. He decided to walk back to his post.

In the process of his hike, a group of Apache warriors came on him. He ignored them completely, and just kept walking. They knew he knew they were there, and they decided to just follow along and see just what this white man was made of.

They also knew he would not survive to make the next source of drinkable water.

Any way as the day wore on, the trooper reached the point where walking was no longer possible, so he crawled. The Apache just watched.

When he finally passed out, the Apache warriors dismounted, gave him enough water and food to make it back to the fort, and a horse.

The man had learned everything about dealing with the Apache from Charles Gatewood (the man who finally convinced Geronimo to surrender and accept being shipped to Florida.)

The plains Indians were also known for brutality, and the history books makes a big deal about how they desicrated Custer's corpse at Little Big Horn.

Custer was not scalped, but they stuck bone needles in his ears, hoping that it would give him the ability to listen better in the afterlife.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 11/1/2016 6:01:16 PM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


(Boom.)

and the stand with it

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Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 11/1/2016 6:52:46 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Im just wondering how greta would feel if a guy showed up dressed as ISIS.
Personally There are many offensive costumes that various people hate.
From what I have seen....
ISIS, KKK ,Blackface, Hitler or nazis, Native Americans, people who hang black men from trees in their halloween garden in effigy. Priests and Nuns,
Just as there are "justification" for wearing them. There are justifications about why they are offensive.


Im more interested in the very real situations going on. Halloween isnt important enough to worry about.

PS Bita what is happening with Standing Rock is horrendous, and I agree with you.. I stand with them, and their cause. And anger.

I'm not Des, hon, we just have the same first name. I don't actually have a comment to make on that situation as I really don't know anything about it.

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Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Halloween Costumes and racial sensitivity - 11/2/2016 4:44:14 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayward5oul


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


(Boom.)

and the stand with it

Probably the whole PA system as well, when you put it like that.


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Profile   Post #: 20
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